Two Dallas cops were involved in the pre-arranged murder of Tippit...

[Jim Hargrove]

16 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

Sorry. I was just jotting down little snippets of information as I found them.

What's coming across to me is that La Cavalier was SAC and right-wing. He infiltrated the OAS in service to SAC.

Gary Shaw's affidavit and Fensterwald's supporting documentation was done in the 1980's - twenty years after the fact.

There was that little bit about Cavalier's phone being tapped in the mid-1980's in an investigation of arms dealing.

As I mentioned to Paul Brancato a while back, I've never read any first-person account of someone who said, "Yes, I saw Souetre in Louisiana and trained with him.", or, "Yes, I met with Souetre when he met General Walker, or anything from Walker that said, "Yes, I met Souetre in April, 1963" (or whenever it was supposed to have happened.) (or anything either from Souetre who said, "Yes, I met General Walker.")

It's all third-hand, written twenty years after the fact and just repeated over and over.

I need to learn more about ETAC.

 

Steve Thomas

 

Steve,

Nevertheless, the paragraph from the April 1, 1964 CIA document quoted in Mr. Fensterwald's affidavit is fascinating.  A barely legible reproduction of the doc is here:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/cia/russholmes/104-10434/104-10434-10381/html/104-10434_10381_0002a.htm

A transcript of the document, done in 2012 on this forum by Thomas Graves, is below.  There appear to be some minor differences between the graphical version and the transcription.

8. Jean SOUETRE aka Michel ROUX aka Michael MERTZ – on 5 March [Mr. Papich] advised that the French had [hit] the Legal Attache in Paris and also the [sDECE man] had queried the Bureau in New York City concerning subject stating that he had been expelled from the U.S. at Fort Worth or Dallas 48 hours after the assassination. He was in Fort Worth on morning of 22 November and in Dallas in the afternoon. The French believe he was expelled to either Mexico or Canada. In January he received mail from a dentist named Alderson living at 5803 Birmingham, Houston, Texas. Subject is believed to be identical with a Captain who is a deserter from the French Army and an activist in the OAS. The French are concerned because of De Gaulle’s planned visit to Mexico. They would like to know the reason for his expulsion from the U.S. and his destination. Bureau files are negative and they are checking in Texas and with the INS. They would like a check of our files with indications of what may be passed to the French. Mr. Papich was given a copy of CSCI-3/766,742 previously furnished the Bureau and CSDB-3/655,207 together with a photograph of Captain SOUETRE . WE/3/Bublie; CI/SIG; CI/OPS/Evans

Something like the above strikes me as hard to ignore.  Do you know if the complete copy of the doc is available at Mary Ferrell's or anywhere else?

[Steve Thomas]

On 11/26/2018 at 10:21 AM, Jim Hargrove said:

Steve,

Nevertheless, the paragraph from the April 1, 1964 CIA document quoted in Mr. Fensterwald's affidavit is fascinating.  A barely legible reproduction of the doc is here:

https://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/cia/russholmes/104-10434/104-10434-10381/html/104-10434_10381_0002a.htm

A transcript of the document, done in 2012 on this forum by Thomas Graves, is below.  There appear to be some minor differences between the graphical version and the transcription.

8. Jean SOUETRE aka Michel ROUX aka Michael MERTZ – on 5 March [Mr. Papich] advised that the French had [hit] the Legal Attache in Paris and also the [sDECE man] had queried the Bureau in New York City concerning subject stating that he had been expelled from the U.S. at Fort Worth or Dallas 48 hours after the assassination. He was in Fort Worth on morning of 22 November and in Dallas in the afternoon. The French believe he was expelled to either Mexico or Canada. In January he received mail from a dentist named Alderson living at 5803 Birmingham, Houston, Texas. Subject is believed to be identical with a Captain who is a deserter from the French Army and an activist in the OAS. The French are concerned because of De Gaulle’s planned visit to Mexico. They would like to know the reason for his expulsion from the U.S. and his destination. Bureau files are negative and they are checking in Texas and with the INS. They would like a check of our files with indications of what may be passed to the French. Mr. Papich was given a copy of CSCI-3/766,742 previously furnished the Bureau and CSDB-3/655,207 together with a photograph of Captain SOUETRE . WE/3/Bublie; CI/SIG; CI/OPS/Evans

Something like the above strikes me as hard to ignore.  Do you know if the complete copy of the doc is available at Mary Ferrell's or anywhere else?

 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by Steve Thomas
deleted from this thread

[David Boylan]

Here's some decent docs on Souetre/Roux/Mertz. 

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/180-10110-10054.pdf

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/124-10224-10066.pdf

In contact with CIA

http://documents.theblackvault.com/documents/jfk/NARA-Oct2017/2018/124-10224-10062.pdf

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

Thank you for the doc links, David.  Very helpful.

On the first read-through,  one thing I’m NOT willing to accept as necessarily true is the statement that “Michael Roux referred to above has been located by French in Paris and it has been determined he is not identical with Jean Souetre” in the 3/13/64 airtel from Hoover.

Interesting that the Director himself felt the need to quash this case of mistaken identity.  This case sure would be easier if we could trust the FBI.
     

[Steve Thomas]

On 11/26/2018 at 4:05 PM, Jim Hargrove said:

Thank you for the doc links, David.  Very helpful.

On the first read-through,  one thing I’m NOT willing to accept as necessarily true is the statement that “Michael Roux referred to above has been located by French in Paris and it has been determined he is not identical with Jean Souetre” in the 3/13/64 airtel from Hoover.

Interesting that the Director himself felt the need to quash this case of mistaken identity.  This case sure would be easier if we could trust the FBI.
     

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Steve Thomas
deleted from this thread

[Paul Brancato]

22 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Jim,

A couple of things:

1) As I pointed out to Paul Brancato once, if you read that memo carefully, the first two sentences are second-person statements. (The French said this, and the French said that...)

When you get to to the sentence that starts out, "He was in Fort Worth on morning of 22 November..." however;  the sentence becomes a declarative statement. Is this information coming from the French, or the CIA writer of the memo? After that sentence, the memo reverts back to second hand information from the French.

This is suspicious to me.

 

2) No, the rest of that memo has never surfaced. We don't know who wrote it, or when it was written.

I believe that this is the copy of the photograph that was included with the memo:

 

Steve Thomas

Steve - You did in fact point out this out to me previously. I guess the question I still have is what are you suspicious of? I read this as simply the French had info on Souetre’s whereabouts and asked us for any help we could give. It’s well documented that OAS tried several times to kill DeGaulle. Maybe the CIA writer was aware of the careful wording, maybe not. I would agree that we cannot assume CIA was aware of Souetre’s presence in Dallas, or helped him leave. But I would not assume from this that they were not aware of Souetre’s movements.  What is clear is that French Intel was worried and had good reason to believe he had been in Dallas. And though Souetre himself denied it, in fact denied any visits to the US, I prefer to believe French Intel. As you know, they are the source for info on not only the Dallas visit, but other visits earlier in 1963 to New Orleans and Texas. 

[Steve Thomas]

On 11/27/2018 at 10:47 AM, Paul Brancato said:

Steve - You did in fact point out this out to me previously. I guess the question I still have is what are you suspicious of? I read this as simply the French had info on Souetre’s whereabouts and asked us for any help we could give. It’s well documented that OAS tried several times to kill DeGaulle. Maybe the CIA writer was aware of the careful wording, maybe not. I would agree that we cannot assume CIA was aware of Souetre’s presence in Dallas, or helped him leave. But I would not assume from this that they were not aware of Souetre’s movements.  What is clear is that French Intel was worried and had good reason to believe he had been in Dallas. And though Souetre himself denied it, in fact denied any visits to the US, I prefer to believe French Intel. As you know, they are the source for info on not only the Dallas visit, but other visits earlier in 1963 to New Orleans and Texas. 

 

Edited December 14, 2018 by Steve Thomas
deleted from this thread

[Jim Hargrove]

With a little help from me, John has written a completely new introduction to THE MURDER OF J.D. TIPPIT page on HARVEYANDLEE.NET.  Here is the new material:
 

It may seem  hard to imagine why anyone would plan to murder a uniformed Dallas policeman in broad daylight in front of numerous eyewitnesses, but it was simply the final act in the long drama in which LEE Oswald framed HARVEY Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy. Tippit had to be eliminated, because he knew both LEE Oswald and HARVEY Oswald. As LEE Oswald shot and killed Officer Tippit, circa 1:06 PM, HARVEY Oswald was sitting in the lower section of the Texas Theater, moving from seat to seat looking for his contact. After killing Tippit, LEE Oswald left the scene and began walking toward the Texas Theater. He likely met up with Capt. Westbrook near the alley and the Abundant Life Church behind the Texaco station, and was likely driven to the theater by Westbrook in order to avoid possible arrest while walking to the theater. 

At first it may seem bizzare to think that LEE Oswald, after murdering Tippit, would be driven in a police car to the theater. However, after careful consideration it appears that driving LEE to the theater may have been the only practical solution. Minutes after Tippit was killed the police were looking for the suspect, who was last seen walking west on Jefferson Blvd. If LEE Oswald had been stopped and arrested by police anywhere between 10th and Patton and the theater, the whole carefully planned operation to blame HARVEY Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy and Officer Tippit would have been compromised. HARVEY Oswald, sitting quietly in the theater, could not be blamed for killing Tippit nor blamed for killing President Kennedy. Therefore, it was absolutely imperative that LEE Oswald arrive quickly and safely at the Texas Theater, and who could take LEE Oswald to the theater without fear of interruption by the police? Captain Westbrook, who I believe drove through the alleyway between Jefferson Blvd. and 10th St. and dropped off LEE Oswald in the alley behind the theater. LEE walked thru the narrow walkway from the alley to Jefferson Blvd, quietly bought a theater ticket, and hurried up the stairs to the balcony.

Not a single person saw LEE Oswald walking toward or entering the Texas Theater, wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants. En route to the theater I believe that LEE Oswald removed his jacket and then left his jacket, wallet, and .38 revolver with Westbrook. In less than an hour these items would be used by Westbrook to identify the suspect as HARVEY Oswald, the man who shot and killed Tippit. Within 30 minutes Westbrook planted and then "found" the jacket given to him by LEE Oswald in the parking lot behind the Texaco station. A few minutes later Westbrook showed fellow police officers the wallet given to him by LEE Oswald, which contained identification for Lee Harvey Oswald and A. Hidell, which linked HARVEY Oswald to the Manlicher carcano rifle and the assassination of President Kennedy. A half hour later, at police headquarters, Westbrook switched LEE Oswald's .38 revolver with the .38 revolver taken from HARVEY Oswald at the theater that was brought to his (Westbrook's) office by officer Gerry Hill. Capt. Westbrook was instrumental in framing HARVEY Oswald as the man who murdered Officer Tippit.

Around 1:13 PM LEE Oswald, following orders, purchased a theater ticket from Julia Postal and quietly walked up to the balcony in the theater, where he could observe HARVEY in the lower section. LEE Oswald was to remain in the theater until the police arrived and either shot or arrested HARVEY Oswald. If HARVEY did leave the theater, LEE was probably instructed to follow HARVEY outside. At this time, circa 1:13 PM, it is important to remember that both LEE (white t-shirt) and HARVEY (long sleeve dark brown shirt) had purchased theater tickets and were sitting quietly in the theater--and there was no reason for anyone to be alarmed and call the police !!  Twenty minutes later Johnny Brewer claimed to have seen a nervous "Lee Harvey Oswald," wearing a dark brown shirt, duck into the entrance to his shoe store as police cars drove past and then sneak into the theater. But Brewer did not see either LEE nor HARVEY sneak into the theater, because both men were already in the theater. I believe it was Tommy Rowe, who also worked in the shoe store, that told Brewer he saw a man, wearing a long sleeve brown shirt, duck into the entrance of the shoe store and then sneak into the theater. What is going on ??

I believe that Brewer, assuming that Tommy Rowe was telling the truth, hurried to the theater and asked Julia Postal (cashier) if she had sold a ticket to a man who had hurried or snuck into the theater. Postal called the police while Brewer went inside the theater and told Butch Burroughs about the suspicious man. Burroughs said that he had not seen this "suspicious" man, and assumed the man went directly to the balcony. Julia Postal was not the only person to call the police. According to researcher Leo Sauvage (who interviewed Dallas Assistant District Attorney Jim Bowie), "there were over a half-dozen anonymous phone calls made to the Dallas Police advising that a suspicious man had gone into the Texas Theater." I'll bet one of these phone calls was made by Tommy Rowe, a very close friend of Jack Ruby's. 

As Brewer was looking for the suspicious man in the theater, Capt. Westbrook was at 10th & Patton showing fellow police officers the wallet given to him by LEE Oswald that contained identification for Lee Harvey Oswald and Alex Hidell. A few minutes later, after receiving a "half dozen anonymous phone calls," the police dispatcher announced that a suspect had entered the Texas Theater and was hiding in the balcony. Soon, over a dozen Dallas cops arrived at the theater while HARVEY was still on the main floor. Police were looking for a suspect wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants (LEE Oswald), but HARVEY had been sitting in the lower section since 1:01-1:07 PM wearing a long sleeve dark brown shirt. Inside the darkened theater it was Tommy Rowe (not Johnny Brewer), who told police the man in the long sleeve brown shirt was their suspect. But how would Tommy Rowe (or Brewer) know the color and style of HARVEY Oswald's shirt when he had never seen this man enter the theater? Perhaps from his good friend, Jack Ruby. 

From the balcony LEE was insulated a bit as HARVEY was arrested, but after hearing the commotion below began to leave the balcony area and walk down the stairway. As Deputy Sheriff Bill Courson was running up the stairs he passed by a young man and later said "he was reasonably satisfied in his own mind" the man he saw was Lee Harvey Oswald." Seconds later LEE Oswald was stopped by police Lt. Cunningham and Detective J.B. Toney, who began to question him, perhaps because his clothing matched the most recent police description of the suspect wearing a white t-shirt and dark pants. As Deputy Sheriff Buddy Walthers rushed up the stairs, he saw these officers as they were questioning the young man.

Capt. Westbrook, in charge of personnel, was the highest ranking police officer at 10th & Patton and at the Texas Theater. Seconds after HARVEY Oswald was arrested Capt. Westbrook, who surely knew that LEE Oswald was upstairs in the balcony, told police officers to "cover his face--HARVEY Oswald's face--and get him out of here." As HARVEY Oswald was taken out the front of the theater, Capt. Westbrook walked toward the back of the theater to the fire door exit by the alley. A few minutes later LEE Oswald was arrested in the balcony and brought downstairs. Theater concessionaire Butch Burroughs saw a man who "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something" taken out the back of the theater in handcuffs "three or four minutes" after HARVEY Oswald was taken out the front of the theater. Bernard Haire, the owner of Bernie's Hobby House, two doors east of the theater, saw police take this man out the back of the theater and place him in a police car. Mr. Haire thought he had witnessed the arrest of Lee Harvey Oswald in the alley behind the Texas Theater. But the man seen by Mr. Haire was LEE Oswald, and not HARVEY Oswald, who had been taken out the front of the theater and driven directly to police headquarters. The identity of the police officer(s) who placed LEE Oswald in the police car in the alley and drove away remain unknown. But within minutes a high ranking police officer, certainly not a patrolman, released LEE Oswald. Who was this high ranking police officer who had the authority to release LEE Oswald, instead of taking him to police headquarters? Likely Capt. Westbrook. The arrest of HARVEY Oswald, and framing him as the "patsy," for the assassination of President Kennedy and the murder of Officer Tippit was now complete. Following are the details....

Edited November 28, 2018 by Jim Hargrove

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Theater concessionaire Butch Burroughs saw a man who "looked almost like Oswald, like he was his brother or something" taken out the back of the theater in handcuffs "three or four minutes" after HARVEY Oswald was taken out the front of the theater.

Jim,

 

It's funny, I was just thinking about this yesterday.

There is no way to answer this question, of course; but, if Butch Burroughs sold popcorn to Lee Oswald at 1:00, what happened to the popcorn?

No reports of greasy hands, no popcorn stuck between his teeth...

 

Steve Thomas

[Rick McTague]

I'd like to know what happened to LEE once he was released by Westbrooke or whomever.  Was he taken to the Trinity River basin after putting on a flight suit / coverall and joined by a Hispanic-looking man to board the CIA flight to NM with Mr. Vinson?  Were there any sightings of LEE after his release, once HARVEY was in police custody?

Thanks

 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Rick McTague said:

 Were there any sightings of LEE after his release, once HARVEY was in police custody?

Thanks

 

Rick,

 

Then you get into the whole T.F. White thing.

 

Steve Thomas

[Mark Lawson]

6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

... Seconds after HARVEY Oswald was arrested Capt. Westbrook, who surely knew that LEE Oswald was upstairs in the balcony, told police officers to "cover his face--HARVEY Oswald's face--and get him out of here."

Somehow his face was *not* covered, as evidenced by this and other remarkable - and all too *convenient* - color transparencies, credited to a US Navy-employed civilian, Stuart L. Reed, who promptly left Dallas for New Orleans, and from there on to the Panama Canal Zone. From https://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/Leaving_the_TSBD.html:

[Jim Hargrove]

16 hours ago, Rick McTague said:

I'd like to know what happened to LEE once he was released by Westbrooke or whomever.  Was he taken to the Trinity River basin after putting on a flight suit / coverall and joined by a Hispanic-looking man to board the CIA flight to NM with Mr. Vinson?  Were there any sightings of LEE after his release, once HARVEY was in police custody?

Thanks

 

Rick,

Shortly before the Robert Vinson observation there was, as Steve Thomas put it above, “the whole T.F. White thing.”  White was an auto mechanic who told his boss he had seen a man “identical” to Lee Harvey Oswald sitting in a car with the engine running at about 2 pm on November 22.  White’s story was made famous by future Dallas mayor Wes Wise, who contacted the Dallas County Tax Office to trace the license plate number Mr. White had written down.  It turns out the plate was registered to Carl Mather, a “best friend” of J.D. Tippit and an employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio,

Whether the car Oswald was seen occupying was a Ford Falcon or a 4-door Plymouth has confused researchers for years, but I’m pretty convinced John has solved the mystery.  See his write-up here:

Wes Wise
 

The other fairly well known sighting that is probably of LEE Oswald, as you say, involves his arrival at a nearly empty C-54 cargo plane that departed Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland and landed on a road under construction near the Trinity River south of Dallas on the afternoon of November 22. For anyone who hasn’t seen it, here is a YouTube interview with Robert Vinson, a decorated Air Force veteran who was a passenger on the C-54 plane:

Robert Vinson

[David Josephs]

Adding a little context...

There are numerous sightings of "Oswald" in the hours after 12:30.  What remains strange is the removal of 87 and 78 from their patrol areas to move up into Oak Cliff... yet no orders for any patrolmen to cover areas 78 & 87...   They expected crime in Oak Cliff but not in the southern areas?

Steve Thomas produced this great map image for us...   Patrol area 87 is the furthest south (under the "W") and quite a way from Elm/Houston.
We do not hear from #97 after 12:41...  How can they not know who worked in that area...  ??

 

Car 87 (Nelson) is sent from Elm/Houston to Patrol area 97 yet no one was taken from that area.. and patrolman #97 remains unidentified ??

 

1:19	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	87
1:19	Dispatcher	87
1:19	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	I'm in my car here at Elm and Houston. Do you want me over there?
1:19	Dispatcher	87, report to 4340 West Davis at the service station for information regarding suspect on this Signal 19 of the President.
1:19	87 (Ptm. R.C. Nelson)	4340

the El Chico is located at 500 N. Beckley

Whaley's handwritten affidavit mentions the Oswald drop-off point as 500 N Beckley

the Sheriff sub-station is at 500 N Beckley

Igor Vaganov who looks like Oswald is a main suspect given the evidence turned up and his location relative to 500 N Beckley, the TIDY LADY (where yet another Oswald was seen) and the Texas theater

 

 

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

23 hours ago, Mark Lawson said:

Somehow his face was *not* covered, as evidenced by this and other remarkable - and all too *convenient* - color transparencies, credited to a US Navy-employed civilian, Stuart L. Reed, who promptly left Dallas for New Orleans, and from there on to the Panama Canal Zone. From https://harveyandlee.net/Leaving/Leaving_the_TSBD.html:

Stuart Reed not only got a photo of Oswald’s arrest, but on that same afternoon and on the same role of film, he also got a shot of the School Book Depository...

 

and two shots of Bus 1213 stalled in traffic.

 

This series of photos suggests to most of us that Reed either had pre-knowledge of the assassination, or someone instructing him did.  It also suggests, at least to me, that Reed or someone instructing him expected at least one “Lee Harvey Oswald” to get onto McWatters’ bus, not to get on a certain Nash Rambler station wagon.