Anatomy Of The Second Floor Lunch Room Encounter

[Michael Walton]

You have to show more conclusive evidence that nullifies their first statements and the Couch pic.

That guy looks like anyone but Lovelady.

Bart, I'm pretty surprised you don't think that the baldish guy is Lovelady. It sure looks like him to me based on that earlier photo of him leaning over to watch the parade.

[Thomas Graves]

21 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

"You have to show more conclusive evidence that nullifies their first statements and the Couch pic. That guy [talking with "Big Girl Dressed In Black" on the TSBD steps] looks like anyone but Lovelady." --  Bart Kamp

Bart, I'm pretty surprised you don't think that the baldish guy is Lovelady. It sure looks like him to me based on that earlier photo of him leaning over to watch the parade.

 

Good point, Michael!

--  Tommy

Edited April 15, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Guest]

Thank you J.D.

 

Last year at the JFK Lancer Conference in Dallas, Bart Kamp was awarded the New Frontier award. The citation stated that his work in reexamining the second floor encounter of Oswald with Texas School Book Depository foreman Roy Truly and motorcycle officer Marrion Baker utilized "a broad array of new data, including documents and statements of the participants and a variety of TSBD witnesses." We agreed with this award and the description of the achievement. The second floor lunch encounter is a thread-worn shibboleth of the Warren Report that – like Oswald's mail order rifle – the first generation of critics simply passed on; the notable exception being Harold Weisberg in his book Whitewash II. In Reclaiming Parkland, I began to question it, largely based on Marrion Baker's first day affidavit, where the officer does not even mention the episode – or Oswald or Truly.  Even though, as he wrote the affidavit, Oswald was sitting across from him in the rather small witness room. In other words, after he had just stuck a gun in his stomach, Baker didn't recognize him.

But Bart Kamp goes much further than that in his analysis. We are presenting a small part of that long essay here, with a link to the longer version at the admirable group Dealey Plaza UK. The new revised version of the essay, from which this part is adapted, will be posted there soon and we will link to it then. This is the kind of work, daring and original, questioning accepted paradigms with new and provocative evidence, that KennedysandKing.com stands for.

~ Jim DiEugenio

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunchroom-encounter-excerpts

Edited April 15, 2017 by Bart Kamp

[Gerry Simone]

19 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

You have to show more conclusive evidence that nullifies their first statements and the Couch pic.

That guy looks like anyone but Lovelady.

Bart, I'm pretty surprised you don't think that the baldish guy is Lovelady. It sure looks like him to me based on that earlier photo of him leaning over to watch the parade.

Looks like BL to me too.  (Looking forward to reading Bart's updated 2nd floor encounter, and the essay on Di Eugenio's site)

Edited April 15, 2017 by Gerry Simone

[Michael Walton]

Gerry - this is on the Kennedys and King site:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunchroom-encounter-excerpts

[Thomas Graves]

2 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

Looks like BL to me too.  (Looking forward to reading Bart's updated 2nd floor encounter, and the essay on Di Eugenio's site)

Gerry,

I do hope that the BL you're referring to is the one on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, talking to the "Gal In Black" in front of him!

--  Tommy

[Gerry Simone]

5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Gerry,

I do hope that the BL you're referring to is the one on the TSBD steps in Couch-Darnell, talking to the "Gal In Black" in front of him!

--  Tommy

I thought I saw it on a photo in this forum (I can't recall now) and not on Di Eugenio's site. BL has that distinct open flannel shirt with a white undershirt look. 

[Gerry Simone]

7 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Gerry - this is on the Kennedys and King site:

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/anatomy-of-the-second-floor-lunchroom-encounter-excerpts

Thanks.  I'll have to read that after Easter.

[Thomas Graves]

11 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

I thought I saw it on a photo in this forum (I can't recall now) and not on Di Eugenio's site. BL has that distinct open flannel shirt with a white undershirt look. 

Gerry,

I need more context to figure out which "Lovelady" in Couch-Darnell you believe really was Lovelady -- the one who's talking with dressed-in-black "Gloria Calvery" on the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the assassination, or the one (in the same clip) who's walking with "Bill Shelley" down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about 30 seconds after the assassination.

I know this is too small to really the figures I'm talking about, but this is the "Couch-Darnell clip" I'm talking about.

Credit: Gerda Dunckel

 

In the red circle: Detail of Kamp's "Lovelady (right) and Shelly (left)," walking down Elm Street Extension

 

Below:  Blow up of another scene in the same clip showing Graves' and Larsen's "Lovelady," standing on the left side of steps and talking with dressed-in-black "Gloria Calvery" who, in turn, is being "pulled up" the steps by a colleague dressed in white.

--  Tommy

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Gerry Simone]

2 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Gerry,

I need more context to figure out which "Lovelady" in Couch-Darnell you believe really was Lovelady -- the one who's talking with dressed-in-black "Gloria Calvery" on the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the assassination, or the one (in the same clip) who's walking with "Bill Shelley" down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about 30 seconds after the assassination.

--  Tommy

I didn't know you could attach a pic file (thought you had to include a link, so this is more convenient). This is a photo by another gentleman in another thread I believe.  When you say Lovelady who's talking with Gloria Calvery, do you mean this pic that shows the colorized Lovelady?  That's what I was referring to.

[Thomas Graves]

11 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Gerry,

I need more context to figure out which "Lovelady" in Couch-Darnell you believe really was Lovelady -- the one who's talking with dressed-in-black "Gloria Calvery" on the TSBD steps about 30 seconds after the assassination, or the one (in the same clip) who's walking with "Bill Shelley" down the Elm Street Extension towards the railway yard / parking lot about 30 seconds after the assassination.

I know this is too small to really the figures I'm talking about, but this is the "Couch-Darnell clip" I'm talking about.

Credit: Gerda Dunckel

 

Detail of "Shelly" and "Lovelady" walking down Elm Street Extension

 

Detail of "Lovelady" talking with dressed-in-black "Calvery" who is being "pulled" up the steps by a woman dressed in white.

--  Tommy

edited and bumped

[Thomas Graves]

11 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

I didn't know you could attach a pic file (thought you had to include a link, so this is more convenient). This is a photo by another gentleman in another thread I believe.  When you say Lovelady who's talking with Gloria Calvery, do you mean this pic that shows the colorized Lovelady?  That's what I was referring to.

[...]

 

Gerry,

To answer your question --  No.  

Although that is the real-deal Lovelady wearing the red shirt in the frame above, it's from the Weigman film, and was taken about 30 - 35 seconds before the Couch-Darnell clips (above, in my earlier post).

What we've been trying to figure out is where, if anywhere, Lovelady is in Couch-Darnell.

--  Tommy

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Gerry Simone]

20 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

edited and bumped

Excellent imagery but I'm a little confused (the moving gifs that merge makes my head spin a little).

Do Shelley and Lovelady walk away (I've seen that before) at the same time as the person talking with the lady in black?  It could be Lovelady by the edge of the wall on those steps, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

[Thomas Graves]

13 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

Excellent imagery but I'm a little confused (the moving gifs that merge makes my head spin a little).

Do Shelley and Lovelady walk away (I've seen that before) at the same time as the person talking with the lady in black?  It could be Lovelady by the edge of the wall on those steps, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

13 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

Excellent imagery but I'm a little confused (the moving gifs that merge makes my head spin a little).

Do Shelley and Lovelady walk away (I've seen that before) at the same time as the person talking with the lady in black?  It could be Lovelady by the edge of the wall on those steps, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Gerry,

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to spend much more time with you on this.

We all know that real-deal Lovelady was standing in two different locations on the steps during the motorcade / assassination.  First he was standing next to the left wall (but on the steps) and was captured on the Hughes film doing so as the limo was approaching the TSBD and turning left onto Elm Street. ............. Then he moved a few feet to HIS LEFT and ended up next to the center hand railing on the steps, evidently to get a better view of the limo as it traveled down Elm Street.  (No, he wasn't captured on film actually walking to that position, but that's where he was while the shots started to ring out, as evidenced by his so-called "Doorman" position in Altgen's 6, and in the Weigman film, one of whose frames you posted above.)

But for the purposes of our conversation here between you and I, none of that really matters. Just consider it a little friendly "background information".

What many of us are trying to figure out is what Lovelady did during the first thirty seconds or so after the assassination, and, unfortunately, neither Altgen6 nor Weigman can help us there.

In trying to figure out what Lovelady (and yes, Shelley would be nice, too) did immediately after the assassination, we've been relying photographically on two different blown-up parts of that that dizzying Couch-Darnell clip I posted above.  Why? Because those blown-up parts show two different possible Loveladys, about twenty feet apart from each other -- one of whom is walking down Elm Street Extension, apparently with another man (Bill Shelly?), and the other one who is standing on the TSBD steps while talking with a woman dressed in black who, in turn, is being pulled up the steps by a woman dressed in white!

And the perplexing thing is that both of these guys resemble Billy Nolan Lovelady!  Especially the guy who is talking to the Woman In Black on the steps in the Couch-Darnell blow-up.

To reiterate, especially for you I posted Couch-Darnell enlargements of the Couch-Darnell scenes in which both of those guys can be looked at and analyzed in their respective blow-ups without your getting all dizzy and everything.

Good luck!

I'm outta here.

--  Tommy

[Note: I maxed out the "I'm outta here" so that Mikey might be able to find, and then actually read, this post.  LOL]

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

The thing that's worrisome for me is in that Dunkel GIF, I know it's supposed to be Lovelady down there on the Annex with the cop running toward the building.  But I think it looks more like Lovelady is still on the steps up there.  I think that because he was pretty bald and the sun is bright on the head on the step.  It just seems to look like him and it makes sense in my mind that had he had not moved yet from his "leaning over" stance when the limo went by.  I think, too, that after the shots were fired, there may have just been like a "standing around and looking around" moment for the folks up there in the steps area.

The cop supposedly ran into the building 90(?) sec after the shooting give or take. So it just seems and looks like it's Lovelady up there.