Judyth Baker writes about Wim Dankbaar's film

[Michael Walton]

Andrej,

I agree with you. But you do realize that she's made up this fantastical story that she knew Lee Oswald, which has been completely debunked by others. I don't wish any ill toward her either, but this is a serious thing for someone to pass themselves off as someone who claims they were intimately involved with the person who took the fall for Kennedy's death and there's not a shred of evidence. If I see a photo someday of LHO and her on the beach somewhere all smiles and good times, then I'll eat my words.

We never heard from this woman for 20-30 years after the assassination. It would be like me claiming I stowed away on the Eagle LM when Armstrong walked on the moon, then you never hear from me until 40 years after the fact. And now I write books and have a shine of "celebrity" because of what I claimed. And people actually pay money to come and see me speak and get in line afterward for my autograph.

The same for Bev, the fake Babushka lady.

So I agree, I don't wish anything ill toward her but I think what she's done in relation to this case is despicable and shameful. Of course, like people out there who still believe the world is flat or there's little green men in Area 51, there's always going to be gullible people out there who fall for this stuff.

[Chris Newton]

I've met Beverly Oliver and she is a loud brassy lady but she has a lot of support from a lot of well respected researchers. The difference between Beverly and Judyth is that no one debates if Babushka existed or not. She was there and is an important story. On the other hand, we have the flimsiest proof that Judyth and Ozzy were lovers.

One of the key elements for myself is how much support there is for a person's story among their own inner circle, their family and most intimate friends. Judyth is bankrupt on this account and Beverly's folks are fully invested.

Just my 2 cents.

[Michael Walton]

I've met Beverly Oliver and she is a loud brassy lady but she has a lot of support from a lot of well respected researchers.

Well-respected? I have no idea who you're talking about, Chris, but I can't imagine any serious researcher thinking Oliver's the real deal. As much as I don't like John McAdams, I have to refer to his website on her and another link as well:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oliver.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/huntpost.txt

Have you seen the photo of the real one during the shooting? Oliver would have been I think 17 years old at the time, and the photo evidence shows none of them look like her.

We have to try to keep things realistic and plausible too, Chris. Moorman and Jean Hill actually appeared on television mere hours after the shooting, yet we're expected to believe that NO ONE comes forward claiming to be her, then years later we have Oliver? Please.

It doesn't matter if Oliver is loud and brassy nor meek and mild. What matters is she's been lying about herself for years and it's amazing that people still fall for her fake story.

[Chris Newton]

Well-respected? I have no idea who you're talking about, Chris, but I can't imagine any serious researcher thinking Oliver's the real deal. As much as I don't like John McAdams...

LOL. Isn't that the definition of "Ironic"?

[Thomas Graves]

I've met Beverly Oliver and she is a loud brassy lady but she has a lot of support from a lot of well respected researchers.

Well-respected? I have no idea who you're talking about, Chris, but I can't imagine any serious researcher thinking Oliver's the real deal. As much as I don't like John McAdams, I have to refer to his website on her and another link as well:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oliver.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/huntpost.txt

Have you seen the photo of the real one during the shooting? Oliver would have been I think 17 years old at the time, and the photo evidence shows none of them look like her.

We have to try to keep things realistic and plausible too, Chris. Moorman and Jean Hill actually appeared on television mere hours after the shooting, yet we're expected to believe that NO ONE comes forward claiming to be her, then years later we have Oliver? Please.

It doesn't matter if Oliver is loud and brassy nor meek and mild. What matters is she's been lying about herself for years and it's amazing that people still fall for her fake story.

So who do you think Babushka Lady was, then? A CIA operative in drag?

Edited September 10, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Michael - I'm with you, and could not have expressed myself more considerately. I don't know the Babushka lady story, but Ms. Baker got my attention. I think the community should challenge her claims more unanimously. I wish that the speakers in any forum or convention that includes or is organized by her would take advantage of the public opportunity to distance themselves from her. It's one thing to accept an opportunity from Ms. Baker to speak at an event produced whole or part by her, and another to muzzle oneself in the process, or even worse, swallow a bit of her Koolaid.

Edited September 10, 2016 by Paul Brancato

[Thomas Graves]

Michael - I'm with you, and could not have expressed myself more considerately. I don't know the Babushka lady story, but Ms. Baker got my attention. I think the community should challenge her claims more unanimously. I wish that the speakers in any forum or convention that includes or is organized by her would take advantage of the public opportunity to distance themselves from her. It's one thing to accept an opportunity from Ms. Baker to speak at an event produced whole or part by her, and another to muzzle oneself in the process, or even worse, swallow a bit of her Koolaid.

[deleted]

Edited September 11, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

I've met Beverly Oliver and she is a loud brassy lady but she has a lot of support from a lot of well respected researchers.

Well-respected? I have no idea who you're talking about, Chris, but I can't imagine any serious researcher thinking Oliver's the real deal. As much as I don't like John McAdams, I have to refer to his website on her and another link as well:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/oliver.htm

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/huntpost.txt

Have you seen the photo of the real one during the shooting? Oliver would have been I think 17 years old at the time, and the photo evidence shows none of them look like her.

We have to try to keep things realistic and plausible too, Chris. Moorman and Jean Hill actually appeared on television mere hours after the shooting, yet we're expected to believe that NO ONE comes forward claiming to be her, then years later we have Oliver? Please.

It doesn't matter if Oliver is loud and brassy nor meek and mild. What matters is she's been lying about herself for years and it's amazing that people still fall for her fake story.

[...]

Dear Michael,

Oliver, a natural blonde, said she was wearing a black wig that day (because that was what she was going to wear at work that night at the Colony Club where she was a singer), and that she looked larger than usual because she was wearing her large over-the-shoulder purse under her overcoat.

I, for one, would like to know where, on (or near) the Grassy Knoll, she claimed to have made eye contact with Roscoe White, whom she says she knew quite well, a few minutes after the assassination while she was waiting expectantly to be questioned about what she had seen. She said she hung around there (where she saw policemen / detectives come up to people and take them away for questioning) for several minutes, and felt free to leave after making eye contact with White because Roscoe knew where she worked and would be able to direct the investigators there in case they wanted to ask her questions.

-- Tommy

Edited September 11, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Michael Walton]

If you want to believe every single thing you read - from her saying she was wearing a wig to seeing White on the knoll - then that's your right. But at the same time, it's really truly scary to learn on this forum how it seems like many members have absolutely NO ability to look at things with just an ever-so-slight critical eye.

I wore a wig that day = I believe her

I saw White up on the knoll = I believe her

I've changed my story but that's OK = I believe her

You never heard from me for 35-40 years after it happened but that's OK = I believe her

I mean, wow! Did anyone not read that second link above of the guy describing his experience with her at the conference? Where she was holding photos up to her chest, one falls, and it was nothing more than a Nix still frame photo? And she still claims it was from her supposed film? And you still believe her?

Who was the real one? I don't have the answers. None of us do. Unless we someday see a film or photo that looks like what she could have captured, then we'll know. But to fall for a fraud like Oliver or Baker just because that's what they say is shockingly naive and gullible.

[Douglas Caddy]

Michael, with all due respect, Thomas Graves over the years has provided an incredible amount of information and knowledge about Kennedy's assassination in his over 5000 posts in our forum. He is neither naïve nor gullible.

You, he and I, along with the other members of the forum, are trying our best to construct the definitive account of what happened in 1963 in Dallas and in the orchestrated cover-up that followed. Each of us has something to contribute in this endeavor. We are doing this because JFK's assassination was a major turning point in American and world history and affects everyone to this day.

[Michael Walton]

Doug,

I agree with you 100%. I'm not trying to put anyone down here and believe me when I say I am with all of you every step of the way. I want to know too and if I wasn't, I wouldn't be here. I've read a lot of your links and you've posted some good, informative stuff.

I just like to err on the side of caution and loathe fake people who claim they were involved when they weren't. I'll admit, too, that I have had my gullible moment in this case, when I used to think for years that the Altgens photo "man in the door way" was Oswald. But now I've finally admitted to myself that, no, it wasn't him, it was Lovelady.

All I'm saying is it's important to try to separate fact from fiction. It's equally important to remember that not every single thing you hear or read is gospel.

[Chris Newton]

When I met Beverly, I was in the hallway outside the conference rooms at Lancer last November. There were some couches out there, some tables set up with people hawking their books and DVD's. There happened to be a guy I instantly recognized, because he looks exactly the same as he did that day in 1963, Charles Brehm. I introduced myself and chatted with him, I believe Beverly gave him a hug. If they felt comfortable that they had a shared experience who the hell am I to suggest otherwise?

Everyone who gets involved in this case has expectations, they have preconceived notions, they make up there minds about things based on "feelings". Beverly recounted a story to me that had nothing to do with Nov. 22nd, or at least that was my first impression. She explained how she had almost been busted for smuggling an AR-15 into Canada because she kept it under the bench in her motorhome and had forgotten to declare it. Maybe Beverly doesn't feel entirely safe after 51 years, I don't know it's not what she expressed to me. It's just a feeling I had listening to her.

Edited September 11, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Thomas Graves]

If you want to believe every single thing you read - from her saying she was wearing a wig to seeing White on the knoll - then that's your right. But at the same time, it's really truly scary to learn on this forum how it seems like many members have absolutely NO ability to look at things with just an ever-so-slight critical eye.

I wore a wig that day = I believe her

I saw White up on the knoll = I believe her

I've changed my story but that's OK = I believe her

You never heard from me for 35-40 years after it happened but that's OK = I believe her

I mean, wow! Did anyone not read that second link above of the guy describing his experience with her at the conference? Where she was holding photos up to her chest, one falls, and it was nothing more than a Nix still frame photo? And she still claims it was from her supposed film? And you still believe her?

Who was the real one? I don't have the answers. None of us do. Unless we someday see a film or photo that looks like what she could have captured, then we'll know. But to fall for a fraud like Oliver or Baker just because that's what they say is shockingly naive and gullible.

Dear Michael,

Can you think of a better candidate than Oliver for Babushka Lady?

Can you find Babushka Lady in this photo?

Hint: She's at the left edge of the photo, across the street, walking to where she said she saw other witnesses congregating and waiting to be questioned.

Go to 14:10 in this video to hear her explain what she was doing in the above photo.

-- Tommy

Edited September 12, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

If you want to believe every single thing you read - from her saying she was wearing a wig to seeing White on the knoll - then that's your right. But at the same time, it's really truly scary to learn on this forum how it seems like many members have absolutely NO ability to look at things with just an ever-so-slight critical eye.

I wore a wig that day = I believe her

I saw White up on the knoll = I believe her

I've changed my story but that's OK = I believe her

You never heard from me for 35-40 years after it happened but that's OK = I believe her

I mean, wow! Did anyone not read that second link above of the guy describing his experience with her at the conference? Where she was holding photos up to her chest, one falls, and it was nothing more than a Nix still frame photo? And she still claims it was from her supposed film? And you still believe her?

Who was the real one? I don't have the answers. None of us do. Unless we someday see a film or photo that looks like what she could have captured, then we'll know. But to fall for a fraud like Oliver or Baker just because that's what they say is shockingly naive and gullible.

Dear Michael,

Can you think of a better candidate than Oliver for Babushka Lady?

Can you find Babushka Lady in this photo?

Hint: She's at the left edge of the photo, across the street, walking to where she said she saw other witnesses congregating and waiting to be questioned.

Go to 14:10 in this video to hear her explain what she was doing in the above photo.

-- Tommy

PS From post # 34 on the "Babushka Lady" thread:

"Let's turn it around and assume that Beverly was not the Babushka lady. That means we have a Dealey Plaza witness with a camera, filming the assassination, who vanished from the earth, never came forward or was identified otherwise. Neither did the FBI attempt to find this woman or her film, although she is clearly visible on Zapruder. How likely is all that?

Wim"

-- Tommy

Edited September 12, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Larry Hancock]

Wow, interesting thread...all about the issues of artificial history with Judyth, which she is currently and intensely and very successfully creating and then it goes off to something else entirely...