Did Ruby talk about Oswald at Ray McKeown's before the assassination?

[Chris Newton]

I'm not really a nuts and bolts guy, but I read it all. What I'd like to ask you Chris is how you would interpret a prior relationship between Ruby and Oswald? What story does that tell about 11/23/63?

It would kill any "lone killer" scenario.

Does it go "full on" Waldron and make the Mafia prime movers and shakers? Maybe.

I don't see Ruby as an "intelligence" type despite his enlistment by the FBI as a sometimes informant. Was there an effort to build an "Oswald" myth leading up to November? maybe.

I can see a scenario where Ruby drives Oswald over to McKeown's to buy 4 scoped rifles.

Lets play a game:

You are three time loser McKeown. The sentence above regarding Ruby and Oswald is true. What would be your actions?

Note: McKeown didn't go to the authorities, it was Ruby who confessed to being involved with McKeown that prompted the initial visit by the FBI to McKeown. If Ruby hadn't slipped up it never would have come out.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Sandy Larsen]

Somebody wrote somewhere (now I can;t find it) that Candy Barr was sick or something and all she could do was take care of dogs.

That sounded strange when I read it and sounds worse now that I wrote it. (My paraphrase could be way off, I admit).

Other than for that, an obvious question is where Ruby stayed the night of his arrival. My first thought was with Candy. But now I remember that Ruby had a friend (Oswald?) with him. What was Ruby doing all night long?

I suppose he could have stayed at a hotel in Edna.

Edited September 21, 2016 by Sandy Larsen

[Chris Newton]

Candy Barr was sick or something and all she could do was take care of dogs.

I'll track it down but I think that's been attributed to Candy, herself in describing what a Judge told her she could do (a suggestion maybe to stop exotic dancing).

[Chris Newton]

Were McKeown and Ruby "friends" [selective Testimony Edition]?

I refuse to answer on the grounds it may incriminate me.

...and would it be all right if the Sheriff's Department would give him my number there.

So I said, hell, I do not know anyone from Dallas, Texas

...so I said yes, it is all right, go ahead and give him the number.

I says, I do not know. I do not know you.

I asked him, are you Jewish, and he says yes.

I said, well, I know you are not Spanish.

I said, well, that would be a damned lie. I just met you 30 minutes ago. I do not know you.

...two or three different times he came back.

I never did give him the letter because he never gave me any money.

In the meantime, we would talk about things

and he commenced telling me that he had a whole lot of jeeps,

a whole lot of slot machines

and he had access to this

and all of this.

He had good connections.

But he kept coming back, you know, and we would talk and drink a beer together.

He wanted to find out where I lived, how I got involved

and all this

and all of that.

But I did not tell him.

He left about the fourth day he came down.

He came down about four times and he left and I never heard from him since.

I did not know Jack Rubinstein. I did not know him, like I don't know you. The same with Jack Rubinstein. I did not know him.

The only thing he came to me -

I had never seen the man in my life before; I had never heard of him.

<to be continued CN>

[Chris Newton]

In the meantime, we would talk about things

This jumps out at me, "in the meantime", the time between two events?

pg. 611 line 10

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=955#relPageId=619&tab=page

[Chris Newton]

...more coincidence theory on McKeown's "club" which is located less than 3 miles from abandoned WW2 Army Airfield.

note: there seems to be a plane parked on the field in this 1957 photo. This airfield may have been operating "off the books" until the 70's

Edited September 21, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Jim Hargrove]

Does it go "full on" Waldron and make the Mafia prime movers and shakers? Maybe.

I don't see Ruby as an "intelligence" type despite his enlistment by the FBI as a sometimes informant. Was there an effort to build an "Oswald" myth leading up to November? maybe.

Mafia schmafia! Here we go again….

We don’t see Ruby as an “intelligence type” because that information has been suppressed for more than half a century. Jacob Leon Rubenstein, aka Jack Ruby, was deeply involved with the U.S. government since at least as far back as the late 1940s, and was clearly protected by the CIA in the 1950s.

In 1952, when Ruby was allegedly “mentally depressed” and had “hibernated in the Cotton Bowl Hotel for three or four months” he was in reality in Florida.

In Florida Ruby soon became acquainted with former Cuban President Carlos Prio, who was supplying arms and munitions to Castro. It was during this time that Ruby met gun smuggler and CIA operative Donald Edward Browder. The two men contracted with Joe Marrs (Marrs Aircraft, Miami) to transport weapons and munitions to Cuba. Ruby soon purchased an interest in two aircraft that he used to illegally transport the arms, and also acquired partial ownership in a Havana gaming house in which Carlos Prio held majority ownership. Donald Browder knew Jack Ruby well and said, “During the pre-Castro years (pre-1959), the CIA and Customs would not oppose gun shipments to Castro.”

NOTE: Blaney Mack Johnson (FBI informant “T-2”) knew a lot about Ruby's and Browder's gun-running activities in the early 1950s. In 1964 Johnson provided the FBI with detailed information concerning their activities and gave the Bureau the names of three people who he said could corroborate his story: Joe Marrs of Marrs Aircraft, with whom Ruby had contracted to make illegal flights to Cuba; Leslie Lewis, former Chief of Police in Hialeah, Florida, who knew of Ruby's gunrunning and smuggling operations; and pilot Clifton T. Bowes, Jr., formerly a captain with National Airlines in Miami. When questioned by the FBI, following the assassination of JFK and Ruby's nationally televised murder of Oswald, these three individuals denied being involved with the illegal transportation of firearms and, of course, denied knowing Jack Ruby.

[Above from John Armstrong's write-up on Jack Ruby at HarveyandLee.net.]

Ruby’s Florida gun-running activities were repeated in the late 1950s. For more on that, see HERE, starting about a dozen paragraphs beneath the picture of Nixon and Ruby.

Alone among the arms merchants surrounding his Florida activities, Ruby was never accused, to our knowledge questioned, or much less charged about his activities. Does anyone seriously doubt this could have happened without CIA protection?

[Chris Newton]

Thanks for the information about Ruby's early 50's Florida activities.

"During the pre-Castro years (pre-1959), the CIA and Customs would not oppose gun shipments to Castro.”

The above quote seems to be in direct conflict with the facts of Mr. McKeown's and Mr. Merola's convictions and incarcerations. Both were convicted of smuggling arms to Cuba pre-1959.

Carlos Prio, despite being a former elected President of Cuba, was not included in the cabal of former Cuban leaders that would lead Cuba after the CIA led invasion. He was not included because he was deemed too "dirty".

We can play CIA/Mafia word games all day, in the end it would seem to be a chicken/egg argument.

[Chris Newton]

This one post I'm going to address Harvey/Lee.

I anticipated that when I wrote that Ruby and Oswald may have been in cahoots in the weeks just prior to November 22 that I would get some "feedback".

I don't have a pet theory.

I don't have a monetary reason to include or discount any avenue of investigation.

I am going to remain open minded.

If I step on some toes or break some eggs, so be it.

We never read about our successful CIA ops where a person is sent in deep cover to another country to act as an US Spy. The CIA will never admit to such activity because if such operations were successful then revealing them would be counter productive. The same is not true for our opponents. Their failures are where we can get a glimpse of how committed intelligence agencies are to the concept of long term cover.

I submit for your perusal, the Foley's:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/07/discovered-our-parents-were-russian-spies-tim-alex-foley

Pay particular attention to "Rote Kapelle"

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cia/ten_cmdmts_counterintel.htm

Edited September 21, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Jim Hargrove]

This one post I'm going to address Harvey/Lee.

I anticipated that when I wrote that Ruby and Oswald may have been in cahoots in the weeks just prior to November 22 that I would get some "feedback".

I don't have a pet theory.

I don't have a monetary reason to include or discount any avenue of investigation.

I am going to remain open minded.

If I step on some toes or break some eggs, so be it.

Chris,

John Armstrong has been saying for years that Jack Ruby and American-born Lee Harvey Oswald were in cahoots. In post #23 of this very thread I copied some words from his write-up on my website. Here they are again.

*In the summer of 1963 Dorothy Marcum was dating Ruby and her aunt worked for Ruby. Dorothy told the FBI that LEE Oswald worked for Ruby during June and July and the two men definitely knew each other.

*Ruby was interviewing Francis Irene Hise for a job as a waitress when a young man entered the Carousel Club and Ruby said “Hi, Ozzie” to the young man. After she was hired Miss Hise served drinks to “Ozzie," whom she recognized after the assassination as LHO.

*Another employee, Clyde Malcolm Limbough, worked for Ruby three years and saw Oswald in Ruby's office on several occasions.

*Helen Kay Smith (“Pixie Lynn”), who worked at the Carousel, told the Dallas Police that she saw Ruby and Oswald together on several occasions.

*Other employees of Ruby who saw Oswald in the Carousel Club were William Crowe, Wally Weston, Dixie Lynn, and Kathy Kay.

*Robert Roy was Ruby's auto mechanic and said that Oswald used to drop off Ruby's car for repairs. Roy then drove Oswald back to Ruby's “burlesque house.”

*Ruby parked his car at Gibbs Auto Service and occasionally allowed friends and associates to borrow his car. Leon Woods was the manager of Gibbs and kept a “check-in and check-out” book that listed the names of people who took Ruby's car from the garage. Mr. Woods gave the book to the FBI following the assassination of President Kennedy, which the FBI later denied.

*During the last week of July (1963) Western Union employee Marshall Hicks delivered several telegrams addressed to “LEE Harvey Oswald” at the Rotary Apartments, 1501-1503 W. 7th St. in Dallas (while HARVEY and Marina were living in New Orleans). The FBI made no attempt to locate copies of these telegrams.

*DPD Detective H.M. Hart, of the Criminal Intelligence Division, received information from a Dallas Police confidential informant who knew Ruby. The informant said that in September (1963) Ruby rented an apartment at 223 S. Ewing for LEE Oswald.

NOTE: Journalist Dorothy Kilgallen wrote in the New York Journal American (June 6, 1964): “It is known that 10 persons have signed sworn depositions to the Warren Commission that they knew Oswald and Ruby to have been acquainted.”

At 20, "Little Lynn" (in private life, Karen Carlin) was Jack's youngest stripper. With long locks of artificially colored gray hair, Lynn had the body of swimsuit contestant—but, on stage, wore little other than a big smile, pink heels and a matching G-string. On November 24, 1963, Little Lynn told U.S. Secret Service agent Roger Warner that she, in his words, "was under the impression that Lee Harvey Oswald, Jack Ruby, and other individuals unknown to her, were involved in a plot to assassinate President Kennedy and that she would be killed if she gave any information to authorities." Lynn reportedly died of a gunshot wound in Houston in 1964.

If you are going to step on toes and break eggs, you'll have to come up with a different theory.

[Chris Newton]

If you are going to step on toes and break eggs, you'll have to come up with a different theory.

Mafia schmafia! Here we go again….

I don't understand then, if Armstrong's research reveals as much, why the Mob connection is such a touchy subject.

[Jim Hargrove]

Chris,

I don't object to observations that American Intel, particularly the CIA, occasionally made use of organized crime members; they clearly did, at least they did back half a century ago or so. What annoys me is the suggestion that the Mob played a significant role in planning the Kennedy assassination, or in setting up “LHO” as the patsy.

That may have been a viable theory back in the days of the HSCA, but I don’t think it works any longer.

This was a coup d’etat, disguised as a simple crime by a deranged “Lone Nut.”

Perhaps we could find some common ground if we stopped invoking the Mob or the CIA and just talked about some indications that Ruby and LHO—American-born LHO from my perspective--may have worked together. I can provide a number of examples from JA’s research if you’d like to try that approach, and probably you have some examples of your own.

What do you think?

[Chris Newton]

What do you think?

You want to help reveal the chain of command between Ruby and the conspirators?

Ultimately, that's what we are trying to establish in this thread.

What was Ruby up to concerning Houston/McKeown/Oswald in the Summer of '63?

[Jim Hargrove]

Yes, by all means, let's disclose Ruby's probable ties to the conspirators. As I wrote way back in post #25:

One of Ruby’s best friends was Gordon McLendon, co-founder of KLIF radio in Oak Cliff, and Ruby had many documented interactions between both McLendon and other KLIF staff. For just one example, a delicatessen employee named John Frickstad told the FBI he overheard Ruby on the telephone the night of the assassination saying that he (Ruby) could be reached at KLIF radio.

Gordon McLendon, as luck would have it, was a very good friend of [David Atlee] Phillips (in the 1970s, for example, the two worked together to form the Association of Former Intelligence Officers). In fact, McLendon and Phillips had known one another since both men were in their teens.

This is the bare bones of John’s case, but it shows how likely it is that LEE Oswald’s actions in Dallas framing his Russian-speaking counterpart in the weeks preceding the assassination were controlled by David Atlee Phillips through McLendon and Ruby.

Just as we were talking about that, you started post #30 with: "Back to McKeown...."

We could also talk about just how strong the evidence is that Ruby was controlling some of the events of 11/22/63.

[Chris Newton]

my semi random notes (so far) on the guy in the blue suit:

In "Crossfire," Hoffman described watching two men behind the wooden stockade fence at the top of the grassy knoll. One of them was a stocky man in a dark blue suit, which Hoffman called "the suit man." The other was standing by the railroad switch box, and was taller and thinner, wearing a railroad worker's clothes. Hoffman called him "the railroad man." Hoffman thought the pair were peculiar, seeing as they were clearly working together but dressed very differently.


George Senator FBI 302

SENATOR recalled that RUBY was wearing a blue suit when he left the apartment.


ARRB testimony of Dennis David describing the SS Agent who dictated memo to him concerning bullets,
…wearing a blue suit.

“Blue Suit” - CIA slang for a “payoff man” (see Iran-Contra)


McKeown HSCA pg 652, line 14

Describing “Hernandez”: He had a blue suit on, well-dressed.