Who was Jack Ruby?

[Larry Hancock]

I surely hope Steve, whom I met twice in Dallas as I recall, is able to find a local publisher for Ian's work - that normally makes things much easier.  Knowing Ian I would expect what he had in print to be in good shape.  However if that does not work out there I'm sure Debra at JFK Lancer would take a look at it for Steve. 

[Pete Mellor]

2 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

I surely hope Steve, whom I met twice in Dallas as I recall, is able to find a local publisher for Ian's work - that normally makes things much easier.  Knowing Ian I would expect what he had in print to be in good shape.  However if that does not work out there I'm sure Debra at JFK Lancer would take a look at it for Steve. 

O.K. Larry, when I hear back I'll let you know the score.

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/17/2020 at 4:55 AM, Pete Mellor said:

 

Ian Griggs' remaining book collection has been offered to DPUK members & Willis & Demaris' 'Jack Ruby' is on that list.  It's one of 10 that I have put my name against, just for the cost of postage.  Not expecting 'fireworks', but just to add to my collection.

I ordered the Wills and Demaris book myself, mainly out of curiosity.  The fact that it is somewhat obscure is intriguing itself but one review did mention interesting detail on Ruby and Dallas at the time of the assassination and prior to it.  Printed in 1968 it's at least somewhat timely, Kantor's book didn't come out until 1978 and though he was a Dallas reporter until about (?) 62' to my knowledge he wasn't around Dallas in the years after the assassination investigating it.  Fourteen bucks including shipping.  I can't take my to a matinee for that if I buy popcorn and a soda to share.  I ought to get over three hours time perusing this. 

[Pete Mellor]

18 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I ordered the Wills and Demaris book myself, mainly out of curiosity.  The fact that it is somewhat obscure is intriguing itself but one review did mention interesting detail on Ruby and Dallas at the time of the assassination and prior to it.  Printed in 1968 it's at least somewhat timely, Kantor's book didn't come out until 1978 and though he was a Dallas reporter until about (?) 62' to my knowledge he wasn't around Dallas in the years after the assassination investigating it.  Fourteen bucks including shipping.  I can't take my to a matinee for that if I buy popcorn and a soda to share.  I ought to get over three hours time perusing this. 

I checked on Amazon all the Ian Griggs books that I put my name against & the Ruby book was by far the most expensive at £25.  Have to wait & see if I get it.  If other DPUK members also put their name on it, we have a bidding war! 

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/8/2020 at 10:41 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I thought I read above somewhere but could not find it that Ian's son had the manuscript.  Maybe in another thread on here.  I've no idea how close to finished it might be.  If near it would be great if it could be published.  I know JFK Lancer still has a link regarding publishing.  If final editing is needed maybe Larry Hancock and/or Joseph Mc Bride could offer experienced, knowledgeable, trustworthy assistance or advice as to the DPD aspect.  I'd think getting one's fathers work published would be a tribute from a son though I have no ideal of their relationship.

In his presentation at the 2013 conference he does seem to be in somewhat bad ill health at points.  I don't know when illness officially intervened but he passed a year ago net Friday.  Sad that he couldn't finish off his last work. 

I did finally order No Case To Answer today.  I'd hesitated a couple of times previously because from reviews it covers many other aspects than DPD/Ruby I've read about  previously that have been hashed and rehashed about elsewhere.  The bag,  Mauser,  Ed Hoffman and more.  But it will be a fresh perspective for me, from a seemingly honest and trustworthy cop.  It is 400 plus pages.  I also hesitated because of the cost.  $24.99 for a somewhat now dated book.  One penny short of free shipping at amazon.  The reviews, Larry's comments and I guess serendipity convinced me.

On April 14th I ordered Rose Cherami: Gathering Fallen Petals by her son Michael Marcades.  It never came, they refunded a few days ago.  Both books together with no shipping, 46 bucks.  Over 800 pages between them, I can make them last several day's if I pace myself.  As Mastercard or Visa says almost "priceless" in these times home alone.

Now this order is over due, with apologies.  If not here by the 26th I can ask for a refund or replacement.  Frustrating.  Though I wouldn't want to work at amazon now.  Don't know if anyone else saw the 60 Minutes bit on them or other articles.  Just about always had quick service from them on many book and other purchases.   This is a non essential purchase.  I understand.  I wouldn't want it to cost someone's life.  At the same time they need a job, have bills to pay.  Trouble is both times it seems it's been lost by the carrier.  I guess they're all overwhelmed by the stay at home on line ordering.  Christmas time at UPS sucked 40 years ago.  I can't imagine now, this.

[Ron Bulman]

From page 222 of No Case To Answer by Ian Griggs.  I'd read of bar tender Nancy Perrin Rich's WC testimony that some of the DPD drank top shelf  liquor for free.  That to charge them would get her fired.  But Ian's interview of Shari Angel is even more revealing.

"When I asked Shari Angel about the presence of DPD officers in the club she told me . . . "they all got payola. . . to look over-a lot of stuff. . .  You could see 'em right up to the office getting their little pay."  "She added : Patrolmen didn't  usually do it.  It was detectives, vice squad and all that."(20) 

[Ron Bulman]

5 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

From page 222 of No Case To Answer by Ian Griggs.  I'd read of bar tender Nancy Perrin Rich's WC testimony that some of the DPD drank top shelf  liquor for free.  That to charge them would get her fired.  But Ian's interview of Shari Angel is even more revealing.

"When I asked Shari Angel about the presence of DPD officers in the club she told me . . . "they all got payola. . . to look over-a lot of stuff. . .  You could see 'em right up to the office getting their little pay."  "She added : Patrolmen didn't  usually do it.  It was detectives, vice squad and all that."(20) 

So, some of the detectives and vice squad were being paid off for overlooking other illegal activities before he shot Oswald.

[Ron Bulman]

I had to say Huh? reading the caption to a picture in Mr. Griggs book.  It's about stripper Kathy Kay teaching the twist to Jim Marrs.  Not that Jim Marrs I thought.

Yes that Jim Marrs.  Griggs showed him the picture and he confirmed it.  He was a student at the University of North Texas in Denton at the time.  I've never read about Marrs ever mentioning he'd been to the Carousel in his youth.  Interesting he had that close of a connection to such an important place in regards to the assassination aftermath, before it happened.

I wonder if he ever mentioned it to his students at UTA or other researchers.  Might he have remembered seeing Ruby there?  

[Larry Hancock]

Jim made no secret of his visits to the Carousel....  At a couple of Lancer conferences Jim revisited his twist experience at the Carousel by dancing with Beverly Oliver. ...a bit more slowly than circa 62/63 of course.

[Ron Bulman]

On 5/27/2020 at 10:20 PM, Larry Hancock said:

Jim made no secret of his visits to the Carousel....  At a couple of Lancer conferences Jim revisited his twist experience at the Carousel by dancing with Beverly Oliver. ...a bit more slowly than circa 62/63 of course.

Not knowing about this makes me even more respectful of his work.  Even if he shared this with other researchers or students, he never mentioned it in either edition of Crossfire did he?  He never bragged I was there, a stripper taught me to dance the twist, that I remember.  I've been wrong more than once before. 

[Larry Hancock]

Its not something I recall in his books but Jim was not a bashful type in person - for that matter he never portrayed himself as  a JFK researcher or a historian of any sort, he represented himself as a reporter,  uncovering news items and reporting them.  That did enable him to write some pretty lively books on other topics as well  - grin. Generally speaking his Lancer presentations were not research pieces like most of the other presenters, they were more in the context of his personal experiences reporting on the assassination and the context of contemporary Dallas - which is where Ruby's club and the twist came into view.

[Joe Bauer]

On 5/27/2020 at 8:03 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I had to say Huh? reading the caption to a picture in Mr. Griggs book.  It's about stripper Kathy Kay teaching the twist to Jim Marrs.  Not that Jim Marrs I thought.

Yes that Jim Marrs.  Griggs showed him the picture and he confirmed it.  He was a student at the University of North Texas in Denton at the time.  I've never read about Marrs ever mentioning he'd been to the Carousel in his youth.  Interesting he had that close of a connection to such an important place in regards to the assassination aftermath, before it happened.

I wonder if he ever mentioned it to his students at UTA or other researchers.  Might he have remembered seeing Ruby there?  

I must admit, in my letting loose time in my early to mid-twenties if I had been in Dallas before and through 1963 ( I wasn't twenty until 1971 ) I would have checked out Jack Ruby's Carousel Club and probably the other strip joints in town as well. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Bulman]

I've started reading the Gary Wills / Ovid Demaris book Jack Ruby The Man Who Killed The Man Who Killed Kennedy from 1967.  Up to page 67 of 267.  It's getting harder as it goes.  Demaris interviewed people after the assassination then came back and  recorded interviews with them and more along with Wills, an Esquire writer.  Wills wrote the book, then going on to a Pulitzer years later as it seems a rather conservative writer.

Thus far it's a Jack did it on impulse for Jackie and Caroline book based on interviews of employees, friends and associates.  Jack was a great guy, always helping others, defending them.  Then the author presumes to think what Jack thought before and while he shot Oswald, based on what others said.

There are valuable interesting historical tidbits scattered occasionally.  

The tour of the Carousel in 1966.  Then the Dallas Police association Gym and golden gloves training facility with a boxing ring at the end of the center dance runway.  A fitting tribute given Ruby's affinity for boxing?  He advertised the fact it was the only club in Dallas with three runways.  But class with comedians (not allowed to tell racial jokes of any kind), magicians and a MC, usually Ruby.  A fading paper star on Jada's dressing room with her name on it.  I never knew there was a box office at the top of the stairs to collect the entrance fee.  Just always figured it was someone at the door.  Nor did I know about the landing.  I had read before about Ruby throwing unruly customers down the stairs.  Turns out they likely didn't tumble all the way to the street.  Just to the landing half way down (up).

Then there's this one from owner of the Stork Club, "Ruby's old friend" Bill Howard.   "Sam and Joe Campisi, who run the Egyptian Lounge in Dallas but skip over to Las Vegas whenever they can, come into Denny's after their own restaurant closes.  Joe Campisi liked to go to the Carousel to watch Ruby in action:  "He was the best god-dam show in town".  p. 8-9.    

[Joe Bauer]

Seriously, Ruby's Carousel Club sounds like it was a crazy, swingin', unpredictably fun with laughably kitsch decor and cheap vaudeville acts kind of place.

Seems hundreds of people from every income level in that town who visited the place in it's heyday had their own favorite wild story to tell about what they witnessed there.

Seth Kantor himself mentioned writing about some of the crazy acts that Ruby conjured up such as the Dallas housewife by day - hot stripper by night, stripper who danced with snakes and a limbo dancer and contest etc.

And imagine rough edged, beefy and balding Jack Ruby himself MCing his low brow Ed Sullivan show type magic and memory, ventriloquists, stand up comedy and who knows what other side show acts including drunken audience participation ones like Jim Marrs took part in.

Sometimes one was even gifted with watching Ruby himself perform his own special act of violently grabbing unruly or disrespectful audience members and beating the crap out of them and then throwing them down the exit stairs! 

Crazy man...crazy!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 1, 2020 by Joe Bauer

[Ron Bulman]

He reportedly didn't let things get too wild.  Strippers couldn't be prostitutes, on there own operating out of the club but some May have been introduced by him to prominent customers.  He came down on customers who insulted them, other employee's, friends or customers.  I have to wonder if the Carousel wasn't a cover for other activities, maybe payoff of detectives and vice squad officers.  A connection for bettors to the Enrique press and Shine Shop to the left of the entrance.  A place for others of questionable repute to meet and make deals?