Paul Trejo Posted October 30, 2016 Share Posted October 30, 2016 (edited) Okay...I see you admit that Richard Case Nagell was worried that he might have been made a patsy in the JFK assassination. Worried enough to have himself incarcerated for a crime he didn't commit. Unfortunately you don't say whether he was worried it was the CIA who might make him a patsy, or General Walker's guys. Well, it couldn't have been Walker's guys that Nagell was worried about. Because it was Nagell who was telling Oswald to not get involved. So clearly Nagell knew not to get involved himself. Therefore you must be admitting that Nagell was indeed afraid that the CIA might make him a patsy. Doesn't that mean that Nagell thought the CIA was behind the assassination? You didn't really answer my question #2. Here is is again, if you wouldn't mind answering it: "If Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't a CIA agent, then how did Nagell's thought of potentially being made a patsy himself originate?" Sandy, I certainly did say that Richard Case Nagell was worried and even afraid of General Walker's guys. Nagell -- as neurotic as he was -- was perhaps the most perceptive player in this whole pathetic drama. You claim that Nagell warned LHO not to get involved, so Nagell knew not to get involved himself -- but you've jumped to a conclusion that the CIA was behind it. Your argument ignores Dick Russell's narrative in his classic book, The Man Who Knew Too Much (1992). When Nagell warned LHO not to get involved, Nagell was speaking as a double-agent -- on the KGB side -- to LHO as a Fake FPCC officer. Nagell gave LHO two warnings: (1) that the Cubans he was dealing with were double-agents, faking him out; and (2) that if LHO succeeded in getting a visa to Cuba from Mexico City, that Nagell would have to shoot LHO dead. Nagell would have shot LHO dead, too, because Nagell was a double-agent, and he had to keep up appearances to the KGB, otherwise the KGB would have figured out that Nagell was a double-agent. The KGB knew that LHO was trying to get to Cuba to assassinate Fidel Castro. So, to fake out the KGB, Nagell was obligated to kill LHO if LHO got a visa to Cuba. Collateral damage. You're ignoring that, Sandy. Also, you asked how Nagell became afraid of being made into a Patsy, so here's my answer: CIA double-agent Richard Case Nagell learned by September 1963 that JFK was going to be assassinated by the Radical Right in the South. (This was the same time that Harry Dean and Willie Somersett learned about the same plot. But they later interpreted this as a coup d'etat -- while IMHO Richard Case Nagell correctly realized it was a Radical Right plot.) So, here's my CT about how it occurred to Nagell that he could be made into a Patsy by General Walker and the Radical Right; step-by-step: (1) Nagell was seen in New Orleans, spying on Guy Banister, David Ferrie, Eladio del Valle, Ed Butler, Carlos Bringuier, Clay Shaw, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Loran Hall, Larry Howard and the whole crowd at 544 Camp Street. (2) Nagell was doing this for the KGB, to fake them out for the CIA. Nagell clearly recognized that he was seen. (3) Nagell knew that this Radical Right group was seeking a "Communist" Patsy for their operation. It was common knowledge. Even a lower level figure like Joseph Milteer had told the FBI informant, Willie Somersett that a Patsy was a key to the plot. (4) Although Nagell was a CIA Agent, he was also a double-agent, pretending to be a Communist. The Radical Right in New Orleans had plenty of photos of Nagell pretending to be a Communist (just like they had all these photos of LHO pretending to be a Communist). (5) The JFK plotters didn't need to arrest the Patsy -- they only needed to kill the Patsy in the street, and then link a purloined weapon to him, and provide all these photos proving he was a "Communist." Case closed. (6) Nagell saw all this unfolding faster than he could control. So he faked a bank robbery and got himself arrested, to protect himself. He ruined his career -- but he possibly saved his own life. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited October 31, 2016 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 When LHO returned to the USA, he was now the FBI's problem. The CIA handles international Intelligence, while the FBI handles national Intelligence. The FBI interviewed LHO, twice, and found him to be clean. So did the State Department. LHO was clean -- because he was never a real defector -- he never relinquished his USA passport. He never became a USSR citizen. LHO was a "dangle," but his real problem was that he was a show-off. He wasn't supposed to return home to the USA with a Russian bride in a snow-storm of publicity. This made many US officials privately upset. It also upset one former US General, namely, Edwin Walker in Dallas. Regards, --Paul Trejo I see… that’s why the CIA brought their agent George Joannides out of retirement and put him in charge of lying to the HSCA… so the Agency could protect General Walker?? You’ve got to be kidding, right? The Miami-based Joannides, who supplied our tax dollars to the Directorio Revolucionario Estudantil (DRE) at the very time “Lee Harvey Oswald” was involved with DRE’s New Orleans office, was perfectly informed with all the details he needed to cleverly mislead the HSCA about our boy and his undercover agent operation. HSCA investigator Gaeton Fonzi wanted to know what CIA agent was in charge of monitoring and paying the DRE in 1962 and 1963, but he made made the mistake of asking the CIA. “Damned if we know!” lied the CIA. Apparently, according to you, they lied about this in order to protect General Walker. Of course, when all this came out in the 1990s, HSCA general counsel G. Robert Blakey said: “The CIA not only lied, it actively subverted the investigation.” Other than to protect it’s relationship with Oswald, why would the CIA have done that, and why would it have specifically picked Joannides as its liaison to the HSCA, and why would it have hidden the fact that Joannides funded the DRE? Wait… I know! I know! The CIA lied about all this to protect General Walker! What hogwash! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 LHO was clean -- because he was never a real defector -- he never relinquished his USA passport. He never became a USSR citizen. Thank you, Paul, for finally admitting the truth about agent Oswald. It's been a long time coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Of course, when all this came out in the 1990s, HSCA general counsel G. Robert Blakey said This did not come out until the 2000's.... http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2003/12/18/jfks-assassination/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) LHO was clean -- because he was never a real defector -- he never relinquished his USA passport. He never became a USSR citizen. Thank you, Paul, for finally admitting the truth about agent Oswald. It's been a long time coming. Jim, You're quite mistaken that LHO was a CIA agent. Just because the teenage LHO was on an assignment from the ONI inside the USSR, this hardly qualifies LHO as a CIA agent. LHO was still a high-school dropout. LHO still didn't know how to drive a car. LHO still could hardly spell. LHO was also a hothead, arrogant teenager -- independent and willful. Not a team player. LHO proved that by leaving his ONI mission early -- by marrying Marina and letting her push him into coming to the wealthy USA. That's not the mark of a CIA agent. That's the mark of a CIA wannabe. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited October 31, 2016 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) ...Of course, when all this came out in the 1990s, HSCA general counsel G. Robert Blakey said: “The CIA not only lied, it actively subverted the investigation.” Other than to protect it’s relationship with Oswald, why would the CIA have done that, and why would it have specifically picked Joannides as its liaison to the HSCA, and why would it have hidden the fact that Joannides funded the DRE? Wait… I know! I know! The CIA lied about all this to protect General Walker! What hogwash! Jim, The CIA leaves domestic politics to the FBI. You should know that by now. The problem with the HSCA was that they held their tribunal from 1977-1979, when the Cold War against Communism was still raging. There was no way that the CIA was going to make any of their secrets about Fidel Castro and Cuba public for the benefit of these politicians in the HSCA. Get real. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited October 31, 2016 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) Okay...I see you admit that Richard Case Nagell was worried that he might have been made a patsy in the JFK assassination. Worried enough to have himself incarcerated for a crime he didn't commit. Unfortunately you don't say whether he was worried it was the CIA who might make him a patsy, or General Walker's guys. Well, it couldn't have been Walker's guys that Nagell was worried about. Because it was Nagell who was telling Oswald to not get involved. So clearly Nagell knew not to get involved himself. Therefore you must be admitting that Nagell was indeed afraid that the CIA might make him a patsy. Doesn't that mean that Nagell thought the CIA was behind the assassination? You didn't really answer my question #2. Here is is again, if you wouldn't mind answering it: "If Lee Harvey Oswald wasn't a CIA agent, then how did Nagell's thought of potentially being made a patsy himself originate?" [...] When Nagell warned LHO not to get involved [with pro-Castro Cubans in an attempt to get into Cuba], Nagell was speaking as a double-agent -- on the KGB side -- to LHO as a Fake FPCC officer. Nagell gave LHO two warnings: (1) that the Cubans he was dealing with were double-agents, faking him out; and (2) that if LHO succeeded in getting a visa to Cuba from Mexico City, that Nagell would have to shoot LHO dead. Nagell would have shot LHO dead, too, because Nagell was a double-agent, and he had to keep up appearances to the KGB, otherwise the KGB would have figured out that Nagell was a double-agent. [...] FWTW, this reminds me of Frank Sturgis' killing 71 Batista supporters in Cuba on January 11, 1959, because he was pretending to be pro-Castro at the time. -- Tommy Edited October 31, 2016 by Thomas Graves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Newton Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) Thank you, Paul, for finally admitting the truth about agent Oswald. It's been a long time coming. The wheels are falling off.... The CIA leaves domestic politics to the FBI. You should know that by now. Paul, do you live under a rock (or a bridge somewhere)? http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB222/family_jewels_wilderotter.pdf Edited October 31, 2016 by Chris Newton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Paul, If Richard Case Nagell knew that the plot to kill the president was instigated by General Walker, why didn't he say so to investigators like Dick Russell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Paul, Why did the CIA ignore Richard Case Nagell's letter to them regarding the plot to kill the president? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Hargrove Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) ...Of course, when all this came out in the 1990s, HSCA general counsel G. Robert Blakey said: “The CIA not only lied, it actively subverted the investigation.” Other than to protect it’s relationship with Oswald, why would the CIA have done that, and why would it have specifically picked Joannides as its liaison to the HSCA, and why would it have hidden the fact that Joannides funded the DRE? Wait… I know! I know! The CIA lied about all this to protect General Walker! What hogwash! Jim, The CIA leaves domestic politics to the FBI. You should know that by now. The problem with the HSCA was that they held their tribunal from 1977-1979, when the Cold War against Communism was still raging. There was no way that the CIA was going to make any of their secrets about Fidel Castro and Cuba public for the benefit of these politicians in the HSCA. Get real. Regards, --Paul Trejo The Soviet Union had dissolved and the Cold War had been over for nearly a decade when, in 1998, the CIA once again lied about Joannides, this time to the Assassination Records Review Board. In 1998, the Agency again responded inaccurately to public inquiries about Joannides. The Agency’s Historic Review Office informed the JFK Assassination Records Review Board (ARRB) that it was unable to identify the case officer for the DRE in 1963. The ARRB staff, on its own, located records confirming that Joannides had been the case officer. --From a letter signed by G. Robert Blakey, Jefferson Morley, Don DeLillo, Paul Hoch, Norman Mailer, Gerald Posner, Anthony Summers, Richard Whalen, and six others. Can you find an excuse better than the Cold War for the CIA's treachery? As for your endless tap dance pretending the CIA stays away from active operations in the U.S., we're waiting for your response to the overwhelming evidence to the contrary in the document Chris linked: http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB222/family_jewels_wilderotter.pdf Edited October 31, 2016 by Jim Hargrove Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 LHO was clean -- because he was never a real defector -- he never relinquished his USA passport. He never became a USSR citizen. Thank you, Paul, for finally admitting the truth about agent Oswald. It's been a long time coming. Jim, You're quite mistaken that LHO was a CIA agent. Just because the teenage LHO was on an assignment from the ONI inside the USSR, this hardly qualifies LHO as a CIA agent. LHO was still a high-school dropout. LHO still didn't know how to drive a car. LHO still could hardly spell. LHO was also a hothead, arrogant teenager -- independent and willful. Not a team player. LHO proved that by leaving his ONI mission early -- by marrying Marina and letting her push him into coming to the wealthy USA. That's not the mark of a CIA agent. That's the mark of a CIA wannabe. Regards, --Paul Trejo Lee Harvey Oswald was born on October 18, 1939. He arrived in Moscow on October 16, 1959. So he was a teenager for all of TWO DAYS while in the USSR. Just the facts, sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 (edited) Paul, (1) If Richard Case Nagell knew that the plot to kill the president was instigated by General Walker, why didn't he say so to investigators like Dick Russell? (2) Why did the CIA ignore Richard Case Nagell's letter to them regarding the plot to kill the president? Sandy, By the numbers: (1.0) Richard Case Nagell was one of the most mysterious people in history. He did not speak clearly. He loved riddles. (1.1.) As a CIA double-agent, playing the middle between the CIA and the KGB, he learned to distrust everybody, and to despise almost everybody. He was supremely arrogant. (1.2.) Even Dick Russell admitted that it was difficult to follow the thoughts of Richard Case Nagell. Nobody who has explored the statements of Nagell has concluded that he was easy to understand. (1.3) You make it sound as if Nagell simply told a simple account to Dick Russell who simply relayed it word-for-word. That's way off base. Nagell spoke in riddles. (1.4) If you want to focus, Sandy, on specific sentences of Richard Case Nagell, we can do so, but within the context of the full paragraph of Nagell's statement. I believe my point will stand firm. (2.0) We don't really know the CIA's internal response with regard to Nagell's warning about the JFK assassination. It appears that the CIA did nothing -- so let's talk about this for a moment. (2.1) First, any US President normally receives at least one death threat a week. In stressful times, like 1963, that threat ratio would have increased dramatically. (2.2) Secondly, the FBI and Secret Service are responsible for interstate crime and protecting the President. They don't want other agencies in their business. The CIA's official duty would be to tell the FBI and Secret Service about any credible threats to the President -- and then back off. (2.2.1) The CIA is responsible for international crime and espionage. If the threat was centered in a foreign country, the CIA would have been the responsible party. But once it comes into USA borders, the CIA is obliged to hand it over to the responsible agencies. (2.3) Thirdly, there was one known part of the JFK plot that involved a foreign nation, namely, Mexico. The Mexico City episode, with which Richard Case Nagell was directly involved, also involved the CIA, including James Jesus Angleton, Anne Goodpasture, David Atlee Phillips, David Morales and others. (2.3.1) As Bill Simpich showed in his landmark JFK research: State Secret: Wiretapping in Mexico City (2014), the CIA did not know what the hell happened there. Somebody claiming to be LHO called the USSR Embassy from the telephone at the Cuban Consulate, and asked to reach Valerie Kostikov, a known KGB assassin. (2.3.2) This is one of the most crucial clues in the JFK assassination. It cracks the case. (2.3.3) The CIA knew within 15 minutes that the caller was not really LHO. That was the most wire-tapped phone in the world at the time, and reports to the CIA chief were mandatory within 15 minutes. There was chaos. Who made this call? Bill Simpich brilliantly showed that that CIA started a Mole-Hunt on that very day -- and never solved it. (2.3.4) After the JFK assassination, when the FBI demanded from the CIA to hand over everything they had on LHO, the low-level clerks at the CIA handed over the LHO 201 file, and these clerks had no clue that LHO's file had been altered by the CIA high-command to try to trap the Mole. (2.3.5) That's why there was a different photo in there besides LHO. That's why LHO's middle name was given as "Henry." There were many other little changes in there -- designed to trap a Mole. (2.3.6) But all this was part of a State Secret. You can't catch a Mole if you're leaking everything to the newspapers. (2.3.7) The CIA never caught the Mole. The CIA never figured out who was trying to frame LHO as a Communist. (2.3.8) The CIA was caught by surprise with the JFK assassination. They probably told the FBI about Nagell's report. (2.3.9) The FBI just added Nagell's report onto the big, growing pile of death threats against JFK in 1963. Why should the FBI give extra weight to Richard Case Nagell, who spoke in riddles? Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited October 31, 2016 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Paul, Why did the CIA ignore Richard Case Nagell's letter to them regarding the plot to kill the president? .... (2.1) First, any US President normally receives at least one death threat a week. In stressful times, like 1963, that threat ratio would have increased dramatically. (2.2) Secondly, the FBI and Secret Service are responsible for interstate crime and protecting the President. They don't want other agencies in their business. The CIA's official duty would be to tell the FBI and Secret Service about any credible threats to the President -- and then back off. .... (2.3.9) The FBI just added Nagell's report onto the big, growing pile of death threats against JFK in 1963. Why should the FBI give extra weight to Richard Case Nagell, who spoke in riddles? .... Paul, Nagell was one of CIA's own. It wasn't like some John Doe contacted them about a possible assassination attempt. It was a CIA agent doing so, about a real threat. I just cannot believe that Nagell's warning would be taken as lightly as you claim it would have been. I can't believe the CIA, hearing from one of it's own agents about the assassination plot, would not have made sure it was taken seriously. Unless, of course, they didn't want it taken seriously. But thanks for replying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 Paul, If Richard Case Nagell knew that the plot to kill the president was instigated by General Walker, why didn't he say so to investigators like Dick Russell? .... (1.0) Richard Case Nagell was one of the most mysterious people in history. He did not speak clearly. He loved riddles.....(1.3) You make it sound as if Nagell simply told a simple account to Dick Russell who simply relayed it word-for-word. That's way off base. Nagell spoke in riddles. .... But that's the way you make it sound when you say that Richard Case Nagell was afraid of General Walker. And of being tuned into a patsy by General Walker's men. And that Nagell would rather do prison time than face General Walker's wrath. Regardless, I thought that Nagell used riddles only when dealing with classified subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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