"Let's get our story straight"

[Tom Hume]

Post moved to post #2 of the thread linked below:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=22732

Edited October 31, 2016 by Tom Hume

[Steve Thomas]

On 10/25/2016 at 6:12 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Thomas Kelley. Warren Report. Appendix XI. Reports Relating to the Interrogation of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas Police Department p. 630

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=654&tab=page

Steve Thomas

On page 629 of Appendix XI, Thomas Kelley wrote that during the Nov. 24th interrogation of Oswald, Oswald said that he had received a letter from the Fair Play for Cuba Committee Headquarters in New York signed by an Alex Hidell.

 

Does anyone know if there is such a letter? Is it one of the WC Exhibits?

 

I just got to wondering if the whole Hidell thing was part of the effort to discredit the FPCC and not Oswald per se.

 

Steve Thomas

[Gene Kelly]

Steve:

I think you're onto something with that use of the Hidell alias.   Putting it all together, perhaps "Plan A" ( which was changed when Oswald managed to live a few more days went like this:

1. the assassin is "Hidell" an FPCC member and sympathizer
2. He was going to be a dead Hidell flown out of the country, back to Cuba 
3. Not a "live" Oswald, who foiled that Plan
4. Hence, the name Hidell was no longer useful

Gene

[Steve Thomas]

Just now, Gene Kelly said:

Steve:

I think you're onto something with that use of the Hidell alias.   Putting it all together, perhaps "Plan A" ( which was changed when Oswald managed to live a few more days went like this:

1. the assassin is "Hidell" an FPCC member and sympathizer
2. He was going to be a dead Hidell flown out of the country, back to Cuba 
3. Not a "live" Oswald, who foiled that Plan
4. Hence, the name Hidell was no longer useful

Gene

Gene,

 

I think that Oswald was part of the FBI's nation-wide COINTEL effort to discredit the FPCC. A persona was created to open a local chapter in New Orleans (which the national FPCC office warned him against doing), work as an agent provocateur ala Carlos Bringuer, and get into street scuffles - bringing media attention to bear highlighting the FPCC as agitators. Whether he was used wittingly, or unwittingly, I don't know.

I think someone came along and co-opted this ongoing effort, and used the Hidell cover to order the rifle that would ultimately be used to track back to this Hidell character in an effort to paint the assassination as a communist conspiracy and justify a move to invade Cuba.

 

That's what I think.

 

Steve Thomas

[Gene Kelly]

Makes sense Steve.

Since Hidell was an alias, what do you think is the genesis of such a name?   Some believe that these aliases are a play on words, or hidden messages.  In this case, the name is connected to explosive evidence (rifle, mail order, postal box, draft card, etc.) pointing towards Oswald.    In retrospect, no one would be that careless in leaving a trail, in such a serious crime.   It comes across as way too contrived.  

[Steve Thomas]

30 minutes ago, Gene Kelly said:

Makes sense Steve.

Since Hidell was an alias, what do you think is the genesis of such a name?   Some believe that these aliases are a play on words, or hidden messages.  In this case, the name is connected to explosive evidence (rifle, mail order, postal box, draft card, etc.) pointing towards Oswald.    In retrospect, no one would be that careless in leaving a trail, in such a serious crime.   It comes across as way too contrived.  

Gene,

 

No, carelessness had nothing to do with it.  Anyone capable of planning a fake airplane hijacking, blowing up a ship in Havana harbor, or sinking a boatload of Cuban refugees as per the Northwoods document was capable of anything. The instances you cited were child's play.

 

Steve Thomas

[Gene Kelly]

Steve:

I get it ... careless was perhaps a poor choice of words.  What I meant was that the name is so phony, so contrived, that its beyond believable (in retrospect, knowing all that we now know).    In other words, its an obvious setup.

Gene

PS. Your comments about the other things done resonates with me.  A few years back, when I confronted a knowledgeable person (one in the know, an individual involved with HSCA) and asked him the classic questions of who did it, why, and how come its not revealed today, his answer was : "what makes you think that was the worst thing they ever did?"  

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve:

I get it ... careless was perhaps a poor choice of words.  What I meant was that the name is so phony, so contrived, that its beyond believable (in retrospect, knowing all that we now know).    In other words, its an obvious setup.

Gene

PS. Your comments about the other things done resonates with me.  A few years back, when I confronted a knowledgeable person (one in the know, an individual involved with HSCA) and asked him the classic questions of who did it, why, and how come its not revealed today, his answer was : "what makes you think that was the worst thing they ever did?"  

There is a recorded conversation available of Chuck Colson talking with Nixon's Attorney General John Mitchell while they were about to be indicted.

At some point,  Mitchell says something about other nefarious things that have taken place besides Watergate.

Like Watergate was the proverbial "tip of the iceberg"?

We all know that Nixon and probably Johnson ( with the help of his little buddy J. Edgar Hoover)  pulled so many underhanded things the general public would be sickened to know of them all.

[Steve Thomas]

5 hours ago, Gene Kelly said:

Steve:

  A few years back, when I confronted a knowledgeable person (one in the know, an individual involved with HSCA) and asked him the classic questions of who did it, why, and how come its not revealed today, his answer was : "what makes you think that was the worst thing they ever did?"  

Gene,

 

Kind of reminds me of what Harry Weatherford is supposed to have said to someone when asked if he fired a shot from the roof of the County Records Building. A
researcher once asks him if he shot JFK. Weatherford replied, “You little son of a bitch, I shoot lots of people.”

 

Steve Thomas

[Chris Newton]

On 11/27/2016 at 8:47 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Anyone capable of planning a fake airplane hijacking, blowing up a ship in Havana harbor, or sinking a boatload of Cuban refugees as per the Northwoods document was capable of anything.

Or for that matter, blowing up a actual civilian airliner. I.e.: the poster child for "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", Luis Posada Carriles.

[Alistair Briggs]

On 26/10/2016 at 9:45 AM, Steve Thomas said:

There are a couple of things in here that interest me.

1) There are at least three people who say that they saw and questioned Oswald about the Hidell ID on Friday night: Detective Guy Rose, FBI Agent Manning Clements, and H&R Division Captain Will Fritz.. I think that should answer the question of when the Hidell ID emerged.

2) The police officer Fritz refers to. To me, there seems to be a mystery police officer in the mix here. Fritz refers to him when asked how he learned of the 1026 N. Beckley St. address, and again in his interrogation notes when he refers to him as "B.O.".

3) Oswald admits to having the Hidell ID card in his possession, and either "declines to admit", or "denies" that the signature is his; (there is a slightly nuanced difference in interpretation here - you have compare the interrogation reports of Fritz, Bookhout and Kelley); and then refuses to discuss it further. Fritz said that Oswald said "he had used it sometimes", but I have yet to discover what it was ever used for.

Steve, I came across this thread after doing a search for Hidell (I searched for it as I was trying to piece together some information about the name). Quoted your above comment as it ties in with some of the notes I have collected...

• When Oswald was being taken in to the DPD, the AJ Hidell card was found in his wallet and Oswald, when asked, remained silent.
• Stowall & Rose asked Oswald his name and Oswald replied "Hidell" they note two identification cards and ask which one is correct, Oswald says 'you find out' (later he admits to them his real name is Oswald.
• Oswald told Fritz he picked up the name Hidell in NY.
• Clements ask about the fictitious card with Hidell name on it and Oswald's picture, Oswald refuses to answer.
• The name AJ Hidell was listed as a Name of Person Entitled to Recieve Mail at PO Box 30061 along with the name of Marina Oswald.
• The order for the rifle carried a A.Hidell signature.
• Negative shots of a Selective Service card with something blocking out where the name went was found at the Paine's.
• Holmes asks if Oswald's PO box had another name attached to it, Oswald says no but when shown it has Marina's name on it, he admits to that, but when also shown it has Hidell on it he sayd 'I don't recall that.
• Holmes asks Oswald about the card with Hidell on it, Oswald admits it but offers up no reason why he had it.
• Oswald says he recieved a FPFC letter signed by Alex Hidell but says he never knew or saw him in New Orleans.
• Oswald states he has never used the name of Hidell.

I wonder if the Hidell name had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK at all, and perhaps it was something else earlier. For example (and I haven't yet fully followed this through so idk) what if Oswald (or whoever he was working with/for) set up a plan to kill General Walker and blame it on the FPFC/Hidell, but that failed and was then forgotten about... like, it was a totally different and unconnected thing to the JFK assassination.

*I can't quite get my head round why if Oswald was being set up for the JFK assassination why whoever was setting him up would confuse things by having links to Oswald and Hidell. I mean if they were setting up Oswald would they not have used evidence that pointed only to Oswald...

My thoughts are running all over the place just now trying to think about what it all means. Happy to hear your thoughts to see if I'm missing anything.

Regards

P.S.

Quote

On page 629 of Appendix XI, Thomas Kelley wrote that during the Nov. 24th interrogation of Oswald, Oswald said that he had received a letter from the Fair Play for Cuba Committee Headquarters in New York signed by an Alex Hidell.

Does anyone know if there is such a letter? Is it one of the WC Exhibits?

According to the footnote in Bugliosi's book Four Days In November on this topic: "There is no evidence that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee in New York ever sent Oswald a letter signed by Alex Hiddell."

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Alistair Briggs
Adding in a P.S.

[Steve Thomas]

36 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I wonder if the Hidell name had nothing to do with the assassination of JFK at all, and perhaps it was something else earlier.

Alistair,

 

The only thing I can up with is that I believe that Oswald created the SS card using the skills that he picked up and the equipment while working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in the fall of 1962 and spring of 1963 - before he moved to New Orleans, and it's got something to do with the two weeks when Oswald went "missing" between Oct 19 and Nov 3. The things that appear to be associated with the name Hidell seem to involve the FPFC and the rifle.

What the implications of that are, I don't know.

 

Steve Thomas

[David Josephs]

Just a couple observations

The evidence which pays for a rifle order in March - the Money Order - was created after the fact...  There are 4 completely different stories related to the finding and securing of that Money Order  https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsMOTimeline.pdf  https://statick2k-5f2f.kxcdn.com/images/pdf/JosephsRiflePart1.pdf 

Holmes' story is a complete fabrication while the SS offers evidence which has them finding the MO in Kansas City, then again later that night in Virginia.  Point being that the existence of the name "Hidell" and the Money Order in March does not necessarily backdate the use of that name...  Since "Hidell" was not an authorized recipient of mail at Oswald's Box one would think Hidell being on the MO and order form and in at least 2 of his wallets was done only to create this association.  

The other thing to consider related to HIDELL is the same thing related to the rifle purchase and the faked trip to Mexico - where are the FBI reports?  All during 1963 Oswald was watched, carefully.  There is not a single FBI/USPS report mentioning the receipt of a 5 foot carton from Klein's, a visit to REA to pick up his pistol, the traveling from downtown Dallas with a 5 foot carton... and given how cheap Ozzie was supposed to be, that carton would make a great traveling case...  or did he just get on a bus from Dallas with a rifle in his hands - also not remembered..?  The next trick was getting that rifle from Neely to Magazine St in New Orleans and then in Ruth's car to Irving with Marina and kids..

This is yet another case of inauthentic evidence leading to erroneous conclusions.  Hidell, like the entire mess, was part of the set-up of Oswald...  Could "Hidell" have simply been a "never-to-be-found" co-conspirator to give validity to the Cuba/Castro-conspiracy story enabling an attack on Cuba.    Here is the only use of "Robert Hidell" after crossing out "W.S. Oswald"  On Nov 24th the CIA puts out a memo claiming the FBI is unaware if "Hidell" was another person (i.e. Mystery Man) or an Oswald Alias...

Again, the FBI was consciously watching Oswald all thru 1963.  Even at Neely.  The man had supposedly ordered 2 weapons using an alias and went thru the necessary steps to pick up said weapons from the delivery point and bring them to his ever-changing homes.  The ONLY evidence of their existence comes from Marina and Mr/Mrs DeMorn....

Ruth and Michael testify to never seeing any rifle prior to Nov 22. despite loading and unloading her car at both ends.

===========

Could "B.O." be FBI Agent Robert "Bob" Olsen?  The other two names for the 11/22 interrogation are Hosty and Bookout, both FBI.  I checked all the DPD references I had and couldn't find a "B.O."

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10675#relPageId=2&tab=page  

 

 

Edited September 11, 2017 by David Josephs

[Alistair Briggs]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

The only thing I can up with is that I believe that Oswald created the SS card using the skills that he picked up and the equipment while working at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall in the fall of 1962 and spring of 1963 - before he moved to New Orleans, and it's got something to do with the two weeks when Oswald went "missing" between Oct 19 and Nov 3. The things that appear to be associated with the name Hidell seem to involve the FPFC and the rifle.

What the implications of that are, I don't know.

Cheers Steve, good stuff. I will certainly have to delve in to that and see what I can come up with.

1 hour ago, David Josephs said:

Just a couple observations

...

Cheers David, good stuff.

Just to be up front with both of you, the thought that popped in to my head was something like this: The FBI employed Oswald in a plot to set up Hidell/FPFC for some reason (other than JFK's assassination) but it never came to fruition, and then subsequently (but separately) the same stuff was used either to set up Oswald or by Osawld to try and get away with it. I've not followed it through fully though, just a thought.

Regards

[David Josephs]

Quote

Just to be up front with both of you, the thought that popped in to my head was something like this: The FBI employed Oswald in a plot to set up Hidell/FPFC for some reason (other than JFK's assassination) but it never came to fruition, and then subsequently (but separately) the same stuff was used either to set up Oswald or by Osawld to try and get away with it. I've not followed it through fully though, just a thought.

and a good thought it is...  The FPCC was being attacked from all sides...

I was in a thread a while back that asked about the switch from Oswald the informant to Oswald the patsy..  what one notices after he moves to New Orleans is that his activities can be interpreted in a number of ways leaving the "plot" to twist and turn around him.  

As Oswald is carrying out his informant orders by playing both sides of the Castro fence (Anti-Castro Bannister forces yet "pro-Castro" flyers) he is also in the process of incriminating himself by sheer association - also in either direction.

If JFK is somehow shot in Chicago, or Tampa...  Oswald continues his $200/month informant job and everyone remembers Arthur Vallee instead.

Virtually everything he is sent to do serves as both his quiet relationship with US intel and to incriminate him - should it become necessary.

 

 

Edited October 31, 2017 by David Josephs