The Flight To Dallas

[Jack White]

John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day.  He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face.  Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else.  A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).

As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.

For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM  missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?

Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMO...badgeman was behind the wooden fence, standing on a car bumper.

IMO...blackdogman did not exist. I theorize he was ADDED to hide Gordon Arnold.

(he is only in Willis and Betzner...if there he would have been in Moorman, Zapruder,

Bond, Muchmore, Nix, etc.)

Jack

[Tim Carroll]

As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.

For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM  missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?

Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMO...badgeman was behind the wooden fence, standing on a car bumper.

IMO...blackdogman did not exist. I theorize he was ADDED to hide Gordon Arnold.

(he is only in Willis and Betzner...if there he would have been in Moorman, Zapruder,

Bond, Muchmore, Nix, etc.)

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Alan Healy]

John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day.  He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face.  Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else.  A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).

As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.

For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM  missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?

Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day.  He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face.  Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else.  A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).

As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.

For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM  missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position? Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed? If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him? Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot? Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? If so, where was Gordon Arnold?

Here is a diagram. Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?" And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, as I said in the post above;

For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.

Zapruder doesn't film the wall for at least five seconds after the head shot.

The man standing next to Hudson has fled & is not seen, why would you expect to see an assassin?

As for "why", why not?

Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why?

As for Gordon Arnold, as I have gone over hundreds of times @ Lancer, he wasn't there IMO!

You can see from the films & photos that dispite the shots coming from behind him, Hudson doesn't even once look in that direction.

Now matter how many people ran to the knoll & how many people thought shots came from that area, it mattered not a jot to the official outcome. Maybe the shooters knew this.

Now I think this is beginning to distract from the thread, so.....help me out.

Alan

[Alan Healy]

IMO...badgeman was behind the wooden fence, standing on a car bumper.

IMO...blackdogman did not exist. I theorize he was ADDED to hide Gordon Arnold.

(he is only in Willis and Betzner...if there he would have been in Moorman, Zapruder,

Bond, Muchmore, Nix, etc.)

Jack

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I except the idea of blackdogman being added as a good possibility but at this time I lean towards him being a shooter, I can't help it, it looks too convincing to me.

Let's see what Tim thinks about this addition idea first anyway

There is something in Moorman, Muchmore & Nix.

Nix even has support for Badgeman being behind the wall, not the fence.

Alan

[Tim Carroll]

Isn't Badgeman's position supposedly from behind the stockade fence, from an elevated position?  Now you have him coming into position after BDM missed?  If Badgeman wasn't behind the fence, how could Zapruder have missed him?  Why would two shooters take turns from the same spot?  Do you believe they were both at the corner of the retaining wall? 

Are you saying that Badgeman was a shooter who moved up into Black Dog Man's position?"  And that both of them were standing in front of Gordon Arnold and just a few feet from Emmett Hudson?"

Tim

_______________________________________________________________

John Costellas' scan of Betzner3 gave us the best assassin lookalike seen in any photo or film taken that day.  He's crouched behind a wall in a snipers pose with a flash of white light/smoke infront of his face.  Only his position at the corner of the wall suggests he was a spotter, the details that make up this character in Betzner3 suggest something else.  A sniper, the best looking one we have(imo (obviously)).

As for interfering with Badgeman, no, he doesn't, not in the slightest.

For me they worked together, Badgeman coming into position after BDM  missed the kill & both behind the wall, not the fence.

Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why?

Alan

_______________________________________________________________

Alan,

Apparently you believe that the area at the corner of the retaining wall was fairly "crowded."

You say: "There is something in Moorman, Muchmore & Nix. Nix even has support for Badgeman being behind the wall, not the fence."

I would like to see the evidence of Badgeman in Nix and Muchmore. All of the versions I've seen of Muchmore cut off the top that would show the area above the retaining wall. I've never seen evidence of Badgeman in Nix. We don't need to revisit Moorman on that one.

Tim

Edited December 11, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Alan Healy]

Apparently you believe that the area at the corner of the retaining wall was fairly "crowded."

You say:  "There is something in Moorman, Muchmore & Nix.  Nix even has support for Badgeman being behind the wall, not the fence."

I would like to see the evidence of Badgeman in Nix and Muchmore.  All of the versions I've seen of Muchmore cut off the top that would show the area above the retaining wall.  I've never seen evidence of Badgeman in Nix.  We don't need to revisit Moorman on that one.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Two people do not make a crowd.

Now these two who are seen in Moorman are there in NIX also, they have to be because we are talking about the exact same time.

Only problem is, NIX is pitch black, or so it seems.

Fortunately for us, Robert Groden has worked on a good copy & gave us his findings in "A Case For Conspiracy".

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...804721?v=glance

What he found was, a "flash of light" occuring behind the wall, at the same moment as the head shot.

What one really needs to do is to view this powerful documentary for themselves.

This short GIF at least shows you what I mean(please excuse the pointers, the Z312 reference is not accurate, just a guide to the rough area of time).

Now doesn't a flash of light occuring above the wall at the time of the headshot remind you of something???.......

That's all, that's why I say Badgeman may of been behind the wall.

Muchmore does indeed show above the wall, as far as I'm aware just for one frame.

If you read again what I said Tim, I didn't say Muchmore had support for Badgeman, only that there is something there that might be Blackdogman.

Alan

[Tim Carroll]

Two people do not make a crowd.

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was referring to your previous statement: "Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why?" If you don't like the term you brought to the debate, then correct or define the term yourself. Shooters taking turns at the corner of the retaining wall within 4/18s of each other seems like a pretty busy location.

Tim

Edited December 13, 2004 by Tim Carroll

[Alan Healy]

Two people do not make a crowd.

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I was referring to your previous statement: "Maybe the area behind the fence was crowded, how am I supposed to know why? If you don't like the term you brought to the debate, then correct or define the term yourself. Shooters taking turns at the corner of the retaining wall within 4/18s of each other seems like a pretty busy location.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since there is almost six seconds between the throat shot(BDM) & the head shot(BM), please explain to me where the 4/18s comes into play!!!

Alan

[Tim Carroll]

Since there is almost six seconds between the throat shot(BDM) & the head shot(BM), please explain to me where the 4/18s comes into play!!!

Alan

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

Thank you, I was a bit slow in catching on that BDM fired the throat shot. That still leaves the issue of Badgeman firing 4/18s after the headshot, according to the muzzle flash supposedly in Moorman, which occurred at Zf-317.

Tim

[Alan Healy]

Thank you, I was a bit slow in catching on that BDM fired the throat shot.  That still leaves the issue of Badgeman firing 4/18s after the headshot, according to the muzzle flash supposedly in Moorman, which occurred at Zf-317.

Tim

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Tim. Thank you!

I am not in a position to say Badgeman was behind the wall instead of the fence. I mean, having Blackdogman firing from such an open position is bad enough but having a second guy pop up beside him to take his turn is probably too much for anyone.

The way I see it though, is that this whole area & what happened up there is open too interpretation, there is & should be room for improvement & speculation.

As was pointed out by Don here;

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=2529

(Altgens was stood right opposite this area at the time of the shooting & said; )

"Just before the motorcade came by, a number of people suddenly appeared behind the wall on the knoll".

When I asked Altgens if there were any police among the "people" he saw, he replied, "I seem to remember that there were".

***

I personally don't see any reason for Badgeman having to be behind the fence, other than the fact that it's "too open" behind the wall.

Anyway, as far as the headshot goes, I think the source of this shot was some ten-fifteen feet along the fenceline, definitely not from behind the wee wall.

So we have Badgeman & some other guy further west taking a shot within half a second of each other, that's okay in my opinion, maybe these guys seeing the limo come to a stop would of inspired such a coordinated hit.

Alan.

[Tim Carroll]

Tim. Thank you!

I am not in a position to say Badgeman was behind the wall instead of the fence. I mean, having Blackdogman firing from such an open position is bad enough but having a second guy pop up beside him to take his turn is probably too much for anyone.  The way I see it though, is that this whole area & what happened up there is open to interpretation, there is & should be room for improvement & speculation.

I personally don't see any reason for Badgeman having to be behind the fence, other than the fact that it's "too open" behind the wall.

Anyway, as far as the headshot goes, I think the source of this shot was some ten-fifteen feet along the fenceline, definitely not from behind the wee wall.

So we have Badgeman & some other guy further west taking a shot within half a second of each other, that's okay in my opinion, maybe these guys seeing the limo come to a stop would of inspired such a coordinated hit.

Alan.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Alan,

I did discuss with Bob Groden what happened to Black Dog Man between the moment of the Altgens photo and the moment of the Grassy Knoll/headshot photos, when he no longer appears at the retaining wall corner. It's very important to me that I not in any way mischaracterize what he said, but basically it was that Black Dog Man got out of the way during that interim. This explanation would accomodate the notion that BDM fired the throat shot, and that Badgeman could have fired at the moment of the Moorman photo. There is still the pesky detail that Badgeman fired 4/18s after the headshot, but that doesn't negate that someone could have fired the headshot from the South Knoll or from the the HSCA location, approximately 8' west of the corner of the stockade fence.

As for your statement: "The way I see it though, is that this whole area & what happened up there is open to interpretation; there is & should be room for improvement & speculation." I couldn't agree more. I am not a photogrammertist and have requested but not yet obtained assistance from someone with the necessary expertise. Jack White's very clear Nix frame (the still colorized one with the caption about cartop man not being there anymore than Zapruder and Sitzman are there) is an example of the kind of work that needs to be done. Unfortunately, in Jack's case, his argument is that since both the Zapruder and Nix films are faked, there's no reason to waste time on them.

Tim

[Tim Carroll]

E-mail received from Tosh Plumlee, October 24, 2005:

"...Getaway pilot Tosh Plumlee:

"...While on the south knoll, Sergio and I were attempting to evaluate the most logical places where shooters might be located, but everything was confused, the timing was off, team members were late getting into position. They were not where they were supposed to be and the limited radio contacts that we had with them were not working, or spotty at best. It was soon after our arrival that the motorcade arrived. When the shots rang out, I had the impression of 4 or 5 shots, with one being fired from behind and to my left on the South Knoll, near the underpass and south parking lot. While leaving via the south side of the underpass near the train tracks, Sergio and I smelled gunpowder...."

This was told to authorities many times over the years (ref; 1964 Warren; Again in 1975 just before the HSCA was formed; Again in1978 HSCA investigators; Again in Aug of 1980 to Bernard Fensterwald Jr and Gary Shaw, Denver Colorado; Again in 1990 to Senator Gary Hart; Again in 1991 to Senator Kerry's investigators, John Winer and Dick McCall). It was 'Classified Top Secret Committee Sensitive'.

Records of the early meetings of 1964 are still in the files of inmate #17581 Colorado State Reformatory as well as the personal notes and recordings of Warden Wayne K Patterson's Estate.

This information was first told in detail to SAC Scott Warner Denver Colorado FBI OO (Office of Origin). In April 1964 at the Denver county jail. It was told again to the Secret Service James Tucker and Bruce McDonald and Scott Warner of the Denver FBI (along with a Paul Lee of the Denver CIA contacts Div, Lowery Air Force Base, Denver, Colorado who was also present at the Colorado State Reformatory meeting located at Buna Vista Colorado in reference to inmate #17581, William Robert Plumlee. Also present was Wayne K Patterson Warden of the Colorado State Reformatory. This information was sent to the Warren investigations. However, for whatever reasons the information was lost and no followup was done as stated by Scott Warner to the HSCA before he died.

In August of 1975 this same information was given to Rick Feeney, Robert Marrow and Congressman Thomas Downing in Phoenix Arizona, Sgt, Ray Lamberson Arizona Department of Public Safety of Senator Goldwater's Staff as well as Sgt. Ed Salem of the Phoenix Org. Crime Detail were also present at another meeting in Phoenix (a meeting and taping PHX ORG Crime Detail offices).

Why has this information and the proof thereof been hidden from the public? Because it is still Classified and proves the work of CIA operatives and military personal operational at the time.

However, alt records can be found at Denver Colorado and Austin Texas at Camp Maybre, Texas National Guard.... They are still there for anyone to obtain. Why has this not been done? Jay Harrison did find some of the information there after I pointed it out. Soon thereafter his home was broken into (ask Dawn about this). He was in process of checking Denver public records when he died.

If I got these documents and released them then I have released classified information for I was an operative in that operation and I am still under that directive. However if someone else obtained these classified records from an alt source then ???? But for whatever reasons, nobody seems to want to do that.

Now I am told that the information is old stuff and has been checked ... but there is no record of anyone going into those Denver files except Peter Lemkin in 1991 and his files in CA were stolen when his home on Solado Beach was broken into.... Ask Jim Marrs about this.

Now do you know why I do not continue with any of this???? Its all to no purpose, because my information will knock the hell out of the GPH and other Special Interest BS that has been planted out there in the name of TRUTH.... Why has so much been said about me when the information I have pointed to or provided has never been proved or researched?

Just thought I would point this out to you ... but I do not intend to get involved again. It all becomes for Special interest and profiteers and if I do not support their projects, books, DVD's, and theories then that means I am not a creditable source. Its a stacked deck againest truth.

Get the documents and information and let it stand on its own merits. You know where to go now. Now do your work. I have done mine.

Have a good one Friend

Tosh