David Lifton teases Final Charade on the Night Fright Show

[Sandy Larsen]

5 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I challenge anyone watching the Zapruder Film clip below to still maintain after watching it that the Single-Bullet Theory is a Lone-Nutter's wild fantasy:

 

Well if Connally was reacting to being shot, he sure as hell didn't notice it. Because Immediately afterward he turns right around and says something to JFK. Viewing that little segment of film leads me to believe one of the following happened:

1. I Agree with Michael that Connally was shot twice, the first hit being minor enough that it didn't faze him.
2. The Z-film was altered to show Connally reacting to the Single Bullet hitting him (which it really didn't). But time/resources weren't spent on removing his words to Kennedy afterward.

 

[David Lifton]

DVP:  You wrote: "John Connally never claimed to be hit by more than one bullet. Never. "

Going back to November 22, 1963, when Gov. JC was still emerging from anesthesia, and it was his wife who was "doing the talking". . . :

Perhaps you have forgotten, but Nellie Connally--in her original (Fri., 11/22, or perhaps Sat 11/23) press statements released either via a direct interview (or possibly by JC's press aide Julian Reade) explicitly stated that Governor Connally was struck twice--once in the chest, and a second time in the wrist.  (As I recall, she did not mention the left thigh at all). Her (original) account was changed within a day or two, but that was her original account.  Perhaps someone can look it up in newspaper files; but Nellie Connally definitely said that the shooting of her husband consisted of two bullet strikes, the second one being the wrist.

As fas as I recall, neither the FBI nor the Warren Commission questioned Mrs. Connally about this change in her account.

DSL - 4/3/2018 - 10:10 PM PDT

[David Andrews]

I'd believe the wrist/throat thing if Connally had been hit in the left wrist, but it seems to me that he's swatting with his hat, pointlessly and irrationally, at a very near miss that buzzed past him on his left, hitting Kennedy.

What kind of Texan was Connally?  A stump politician used to swatting at insects with that hat.  It was muscle memory, as if he'd been surprised by a big, nasty bee.  Get outta my car, you!

He can't make that motion or hang onto his hat with a broken right wrist.  Plus his attention would be focused in  that direction.

I think he's sensed that there was a previous shot into the limo interior, and the near-miss has proved it for him.

Edited April 4, 2018 by David Andrews

[Cliff Varnell]

6 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

I challenge anyone watching the Zapruder Film clip below to still maintain after watching it that the Single-Bullet Theory is a Lone-Nutter's wild fantasy:

 

Lots more on the SBT:

http://Single-Bullet-Theory.blogspot.com

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2013/02/sbt-clips.html

David Von Pein and Pat Speer in 2003: JFK's shirt and jacket were bunched up two inches each, so that the bullet holes in the clothes aligned with T1.

David Von Pein and Pat Speer in 2014: JFK's shirt and jacket weren't bunched up much at all, so that the bullet holes in the clothes aligned with T1.

Brilliant.

[Sandy Larsen]

33 minutes ago, David Andrews said:

What kind of Texan was Connally?  A stump politician used to swatting at insects with that hat.  It was muscle memory, as if he'd been surprised by a big, nasty bee.  Get outta my car, you!

That's a good point that I didn't consider.

What I did consider was the possibility that Connally flinched from the sound of a gunshot. However, when I looked and saw no flinch from Jackie whatsoever, I concluded that Connally must have been hit.

But these days I'm aware of the fact that, not only is there the sound a a gun blast coming from the barrel of the gun, but also the sound of a bullet as it travels nearby an ear. The sound the bullet makes is actually a tiny sonic boom and sounds sort of like the crack of a whip... which is also a sonic boom. So yes, I can see Connally react to that sound by waving his hat reflexively as if to shoo a flying insect.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

48 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

David Von Pein and Pat Speer in 2003: JFK's shirt and jacket were bunched up two inches each, so that the bullet holes in the clothes aligned with T1.

David Von Pein and Pat Speer in 2014: JFK's shirt and jacket weren't bunched up much at all, so that the bullet holes in the clothes aligned with T1.

Brilliant.

 

LOL

 

[Andrej Stancak]

I do not know how much it helps, however, there is no way that there would be a "delayed" reaction to such a painful impact as a gunshot which Warren Commission tried to sell. In our pain research, we apply a laser beam to the back of participants' hands to elicit a moderate pain (5-6 on a scale from "no pain" (0) to "very strong pain (10)". The first cortical response caused by nociceptive sensors in the superficial layers of the skin comes at around 150-170 ms depending on how tall a person is. A motor response to a pain impact is first of reflex origin (a withdrawal or RIII reflex, it is mediated by the spinal cord), and only much later (>0.5 s) the conscious, behavioural adjustments occur.  In the context of the present discussion, a painful impact caused by a bullet would occur 3 Z-frames before the first visible motor response by John Connally. Being distracted does not really change the latencies of pain responses.   

Figure 3 in the linked paper shows the first cortical responses at 158 ms and 175 ms occurring in primary somatosensory cortex and operculo-insular cortex, respectively. These initial components are not affected by the direction of attentional focus towards or away from the source of pain.

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs10548-017-0613-8.pdf

 

[Ron Ecker]

2 hours ago, Andrej Stancak said:

I do not know how much it helps, however, there is no way that there would be a "delayed" reaction to such a painful impact as a gunshot which Warren Commission tried to sell.

How do you explain the fact that when Ronald Reagan was shot, he didn't feel any pain till he was inside the car and an agent fell on him?

 

 

 

[Andrej Stancak]

29 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

How do you explain the fact that when Ronald Reagan was shot, he didn't feel any pain till he was inside the car and an agent fell on him?

 

 

 

Ron:

I do not know any details about Ronald Reagan gunshot injury to be able to comment. It is known that elderly people have much less sensitivity to the first (fast) pain than young adults, whereby the reactions to the later-occurring, slow pain is equal in both age groups. If Ronald Reagan was >65 years, he may under-react to the first impact. 

Cases when pain is ignored and injured people continue their activities, e.g. a war battle, are well known since WWI. This is related to phenomena such as stress-analgesia or, which is a different phenomenon, diffuse noxious inhibitory control. The latter phenomenon means basically suppression of one pain by another pain, however, this one was not the likely cause of the alleged absence of pain awareness in Ronald Reagan case.

Again, I do not know enough about Reagan's shooting. It would be helpful to view a video recording of that incident. Reagan might have shown a reflex, motor response to pain at a short latency without being aware. 

 

 

Edited April 4, 2018 by Andrej Stancak

[Ron Ecker]

1 hour ago, Andrej Stancak said:

Ron:

I do not know any details about Ronald Reagan gunshot injury to be able to comment. It is known that elderly people have much less sensitivity to the first (fast) pain than young adults, whereby the reactions to the later-occurring, slow pain is equal in both age groups. If Ronald Reagan was >65 years, he may under-react to the first impact. 

Cases when pain is ignored and injured people continue their activities, e.g. a war battle, are well known since WWI. This is related to phenomena such as stress-analgesia or, which is a different phenomenon, diffuse noxious inhibitory control. The latter phenomenon means basically suppression of one pain by another pain, however, this one was not the likely cause of the alleged absence of pain awareness in Ronald Reagan case.

Again, I do not know enough about Reagan's shooting. It would be helpful to view a video recording of that incident. Reagan might have shown a reflex, motor response to pain at a short latency without being aware. 

 

 

Quoting Reagan:

“I still can't get over the fact of the delay between when I know now that I was shot, but didn't know then, and the feeling of pain,' he said. 'I always just assumed if you were shot, you felt it, felt it right then. But it was, I was all the way in the car, and then suddenly this pain, and that's why I thought that the agent (Jerry Parr, chief of the White House Secret Service detail) who jumped in and shielded me had maybe broken my rib when he, because, obviously, I was shot outside the car. We know now where, and I still can't get over that period of delay in which there was no pain.”

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1982/03/30/President-Reagan-contrasting-the-attempt-on-his-life-a/7341386312400/

Your explanation makes sense (as yet another remarkable coincidence, a presidential assassination attempt not only with the rarity of feeling no pain when being shot but with an almost miraculous ricochet bullet that found its mark) if Reagan was shot precisely when the government says he was shot, by the person who the government says shot him. Another magic bullet, ammo so common in these incidents that in the case of Reagan the magic hasn't been worth noting.

 

 

[Rick McTague]

12 hours ago, David Andrews said:

I'd believe the wrist/throat thing if Connally had been hit in the left wrist, but it seems to me that he's swatting with his hat, pointlessly and irrationally, at a very near miss that buzzed past him on his left, hitting Kennedy.

What kind of Texan was Connally?  A stump politician used to swatting at insects with that hat.  It was muscle memory, as if he'd been surprised by a big, nasty bee.  Get outta my car, you!

He can't make that motion or hang onto his hat with a broken right wrist.  Plus his attention would be focused in  that direction.

I think he's sensed that there was a previous shot into the limo interior, and the near-miss has proved it for him.

David,

Gov. Connally is reacting to the 2nd shot to enter the limo: the frontal shot that hit Kennedy in the throat.  The first shot into the limo hit Kennedy in the back and didn't penetrate; it did cause JFK to say, "My God, I'm hit!" according to Kellerman. 

And of course, these 2 shots were #2 and #3 overall, since the first shot missed entirely and hit the curb that wounded James Tague.  Then came the shots that hit Connally - part of the "flurry of shots" again by Kellerman.

If the SBT is true, how could JFK speak after the bullet tore through his throat?

Rick

[Trygve V. Jensen]

44 minutes ago, Rick McTague said:

David,

Gov. Connally is reacting to the 2nd shot to enter the limo: the frontal shot that hit Kennedy in the throat.

Did it exit? - If so; where ?

Edit; Hi Rick btw.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Trygve V. Jensen
Lack of politeness

[Ray Mitcham]

2 hours ago, Trygve V. Jensen said:

Did it exit? - If so; where ?

Edit; Hi Rick btw.

Who said it exited, Trigve? Look at the tracheotomy, does it look like a normal one to you or a butchered attend[mpt to get at a bullet?

[Trygve V. Jensen]

39 minutes ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Who said it exited, Trigve? Look at the tracheotomy, does it look like a normal one to you or a butchered attend[mpt to get at a bullet?

Hi Ray, - we both have an "y" in our names .

Being out of the game for so long, - this is one of the many many areas I am as far as an expert,  one can possibly be.

So I have no idea if anyone said it exited, - and did not say anyone said so either; that it exited.........---  I just asked if it did, - and if so, - where to ? Simple.

Picking up info here and there is interesting,- also in this matter. Any input appreciated.

I am not a doctor/medical expert either , - so I don't know how a normal Tracheo(s)tomy look like.

I interpret your view as , that it was a frontal shot, - -- that it did not exit, - and said procedure was in order to retrieve a bullet. Hastened and misunderstood interpretation perhaps.

Btw. : I ask because I want to learn, - and to pick up information / views / opinions / explanations etc. - from people who know what they are talking about. Lots of skilled/knowledgeable people in here. If it is interpreted that I ask in an insinuating way, or have any kind of agenda, - that is not my intention.

Edit: As a contributor to derailing the topic of the thread, - I apologize for doing so.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Trygve V. Jensen

[David Von Pein]

Re: President Kennedy's necktie....

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2017/04/jfk-assassination-arguments-part-1244.html#JFK's-Necktie