David Lifton teases Final Charade on the Night Fright Show

[Micah Mileto]

The towel mystery could be solved only by contacting the family members of anybody who had an autopsy performed at Bethesda for the photographs if they still exist.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Micah Mileto

[Trygve V. Jensen]

10 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

I firmly believe that I saw what I saw, despite the late Gary Mack insisting to me that there was no live TV coverage, despite the fact that there is apparently no surviving tape of that coverage, and despite the fact that I have not found anyone else in the JFK research community who remembers seeing it. I remember watching it as clearly as I remember watching on TV as Ruby shot Oswald .  

Thank you Ron for this post. It made my Sunday a better one, ---- initiating yet an interesting search - frenzy . I really want to believe your recollection is correct. ( But finding this footage, if existent, - would be a challenge ) .

Returning to this forum 10 - 12 years later, --- I in most cases, - see what you guys see as "old-news",  - as news.

With one consequence being,  - while trying to contribute,-  at times (perhaps most of the time) , - if I take the step to post something, ----- it has long ago been covered / discussed. - I try searching a lot within the forum threads, - before posting, -but there's a limit on how much time and energy one can spend, in doing so.

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So just taking a preemptive notion that all of you renowned researchers must surely have covered this issue already, ---- I simply ask, - what were your conclusions about this : (HD 1080p)

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Is it the infamous black hearse ? If so, - would there be any significance, -  it being at Andrews ? Or is it just a different vehicle.

Or am I, - (just as usual )  - tired, -- and mixing the pieces of the puzzles together,- - posting nonsense.

Regardless, - from my perspective , - it's of great value discovering/re-discovering clips from the old days, - I had not seen before, - or at least can not remember having seen before.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Trygve V. Jensen

[Ron Ecker]

36 minutes ago, Trygve V. Jensen said:

 

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Is it the infamous black hearse ? If so, - would there be any significance, -  it being at Andrews ? Or is it just a different vehicle.

Or am I, - (just as usual )  - tired, -- and mixing the pieces of the puzzles together,- - posting nonsense.

Regardless, - from my perspective , - it's of great value discovering/re-discovering clips from the old days, - I had not seen before, - or at least can not remember having seen before.

The black vehicle seen passing was a long limousine, not a hearse. A hearse would have a rear door. This vehicle had a trunk and tailfins.

 

 

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Okay, - thanks !

[Paz Marverde]

5 hours ago, Micah Mileto said:

The towel mystery could be solved only by contacting the family members of anybody who had an autopsy performed at Bethesda for the photographs if they still exist.

Interesting

[Larry Hancock]

for reference:  https://www.google.com/search?q=cadillac+hearse+1963&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIq_3Kk73aAhUFYawKHSs3DJYQ7AkIOw&biw=1126&bih=672

 

[Ron Ecker]

9 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

for reference:  https://www.google.com/search?q=cadillac+hearse+1963&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjIq_3Kk73aAhUFYawKHSs3DJYQ7AkIOw&biw=1126&bih=672

 

Well, it's interesting that some hearses have or had tailfins. Which is pretty snazzy, I guess, like the only way to go.

 

 

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Thanks to you too Larry!

The later it gets, - the concentration vanishes,- and I just have to stop the reading, - searching etc. Ending up watching old clips instead, for personal entertainment.

Wish my English was better, - it's frustrating when trying to find the correct terms,  forming of sentences etc. Being preemptive again, - preparing next sentence.

The vehicle visible at above link, - just looked dissimilar to some degree, -  compared to for instance these three "sedan" ? - looking vehicles , lining up behind the grey hearse / ambulance:

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039267_President-Lyndon-B-Johnson_first-public-statement_VC-137C_newsmen

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http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039264_Andrews-Air-Force-Base_high-lift-truck_casket-bearing-John-Kennedys-body_ambulance_VC-137C

I suspect a couple of people would say, - hey , - that's the hearse visible driving behind AF1. I'll just stick with saying it's a joy watching this old footage.

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http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039265_Andrews-Air-Force-Base_newsmen_cameramen-in-action_Andrews-Air-Force-Base-Operations

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039263_Edward-Kennedy_Mrs-Eunice-Shriver_helicopter-VH-3A_aircraft-VC-140B

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039234_Secretary-of-State-Dean-Rusk_Rusk-arriving-by-plane_microphone

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675039232_Jacqueline-Kennedy_John-Kennedys-casket-carried-out-of-plane_night

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Anyhow, - as I first said, - this is most probably old news by now .

Robin Unger posted in a different thread , - a snapshot from the last link here. 6 years ago.

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Btw, - it would be nice to have unlimited resources,- being able to put up 180-200 $ - to download these in maximum resolution. For starters one could link to better versions , - than these "low resolution -- preview"  - ones.

Edited April 15, 2018 by Trygve V. Jensen

[Paz Marverde]

17 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

for reference

I'm sure we can email you about that

[Trygve V. Jensen]

So it is a limousine , and not a hearse then. At least it is established , - it had tailfins !

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Btw. 2: Fortunately one can save a couple of hundred dollars here and there, - as criticalpast has uploaded a couple of high definition videos to Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=criticalpast+jfk

[Ron Ecker]

Re the hearses, the one person I have found on Earth (not a JFK researcher as such) who remembers seeing the same live TV coverage of the arrival at Bethesda, stated by email that the hearse that arrived with Mrs. Kennedy and the Dallas casket and sat in front of the hospital for five minutes was without a doubt a black Cadillac. Not the gray Pontiac that left with the casket from Andrews.

I can't say after all this time if the hearse I saw was black or gray, and I wouldn't know a Cadillac from a Pontiac. But this guy is sure it was a black Cadillac.

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Ron Ecker

[Trygve V. Jensen]

Thanks again for your input.

It is not good to my health , - you posting such intriguing remarks! Should have been in bed by now.

[David Lifton]

15 hours ago, Ron Ecker said:

I don't think that's an accurate account. The ambulance sat in front of the hospital for several minutes, and there was no rush of photographers. This is according to Manchester's account in Death of a President, as well as my own memory of watching the arrival, and the ambulance sitting there, on live TV. I firmly believe that I saw what I saw, despite the late Gary Mack insisting to me that there was no live TV coverage, despite the fact that there is apparently no surviving tape of that coverage, and despite the fact that I have not found anyone else in the JFK research community who remembers seeing it. I remember watching it as clearly as I remember watching on TV as Ruby shot Oswald .  

Karl Kinaski and Ron:

1. The Naval ambulance with Jackie, RFK, and the Dallas coffin (which was empty, per Dennis David--see Ch. 25 of B.E.) arrived at the front of Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:53/6:55 pm. Jackie and RFK exited, and entered Bethesda via the front entrance.  These facts, and the sources, are laid out in Chapter 16 of B.E. ("Chain of Possession The Missking Link")

2A. The naval ambulance remained parked there for some 12 minutes, not 5 (or any other number). The time lapse was 12 minutes, and that is specified by a reporter for the Washington Star,  William Griggs, who was on the scene that evening.  What he witnessed, was reported in the next day's Washington newspaper.  (All of this is spelled out in the chapter of B.E. devoted to the arrival of the naval ambulance at Bethesda, and the goings-on at the front of the hospital).  As reported in Chapter 16, where the Griggs account is quoted:

QUOTE ON: On page three of the November 23, 1963 Washington Star, I found a story headlined: MRS KENNEDY SPENDS NIGHT AT HOSPITAL, by William Griggs.  There was useful information about the ambulance: ". . . hundreds of persons formed a partial circle around the ambulance when it stopped. . . . For at least 12 minutes after Mrs. Kennedy entered the hospital, the ambulance remained in the driveway. Many spectators would see the simple casket within.  Military officials, leaning on the open front door of the vehicle, apparently were not sure where the body should be taken. When word finally came, the crowds were pushed back and the ambulance took the President's body to a entrance at the far rear of the hospital." 

CONTINUING THE QUOTE. .  : According to Griggs, the pause in front of the hospital was twelve minutes. Griggs also reported that the time of arrival of the ambulance at Bethesda was 6:53 P.M., two minutes earlier than the hour in Secret Service Agent Hill's report  Thus Grigg's account implied the ambulance moved off at 7:05 or 7:07, depending on whether Grigg's 6:53 or the Secret Service's 6:55 was used as the time of arrival."  UNQUOTE

2B:. Then came another important quote, this one from the Washington Post. "On page 11 of the Washington Post for November 23, 1963, I found another story: OFFICIALS TO VIEW BODY TODAY AT WHITE HOUSE.  Several paragraphs dealt in detail with Bethesda, indicating the reporter must have been there.

"More than 3000 persons were crowded onto the Hospital grounds in Berthesda and they surged around the ambulance when it arrived about 7 P.M. . . . The Attorney General escorted the President's widow through the front door and the ambulance containing the coffin sat unattended for several minutes.  A Navy cordon finally pushed the crowd back about 15 feet from the vehicle. 

Then, in the final paragraph, came this detail: "Adm. Calvin B. Galloway, commandant of the medical center, pushed into the front seat and drove to the rear of the Hospital, where the body was taken inside."  CLOSE QUOTE
 

3. My interviews with the casket team--and specifically, Sgt. James Felder, and Hubert Clark--were conducted in December 1967 --that's over 50 years ago. They were all carefully taped and transcribed, and laid out in detail in Chapter 16 of Best Evidence.  Further, it is all corroborated by the mid-December 1963 memo written by Coastguard person Barnum. 

4. I think it is completely improper to take the account of any witness, written a half century later, and rely on that instead of the interviews and that I conducted in 1967.

5. There was no TV coverage of the arrival of the naval ambulance at Bethesda.  I looked into this very carefully at the time I was conducting my own telephone interviews (1967) and then again a decade or so later when I was writing Chapter 16 of Best Evidence ("Chain of Possession: The Missing Link")

6.  IMHO: Gary Mack was correct when he said there was no film coverage.

7. Also please note: Had there been film coverage, that's exactly the sort of evidence that Manchester would have relied on, screened, and reported in his book. (Ron: I appreciate what you believe you saw, but the NBC logs, and other media --the AP "A" wire and the UPI "A" wire--constitute credible evidence that your recollection is incorrect.

To those following this discussion: the data I have quoted above is data was published on November 23, 1963 (Washington Star) and November 24th 1963 Washington Post).

As I believe any historian or attorney would agree, the "earliest recorded recollection" is the best (or "better") evidence.

These accounts, which I unearthed through laborious library research back in 1967, and featured in Chapter 16 of B.E. (published in Jan 1981) far exceed in credibility and significance the account of anyone who --today--is basing their account (i.e., today in 2018), one something they believe they "remembered" from over 50 years ago. 

In general, what is important is not just "who was there" and "what was witnessed" but when the "read-out from memory" occurred; i.e., when that person made a written record of what they witnessed;  or, in the case of the members of the casket team, when they were first interviewed.

As far as I know--and with one important exception (the missing taped account of team leader Lt. Bird)--I am the only person who interviewed these people.  So in a way, I was history's first responder; and its for that reason that I am "speaking up"  here on this forum,  to sound a warning about the recollections offered by whose who, over half a century later, come up with accounts based on what they claim to have "remembered", when in fact they made no record at the time.

In real estate transactions, it is well known that nothing "said" is what is important; all that counts is what is "in writing."

A similar situation exists in history.  Barring some very unusual circumstances, we don't credit what someone "says they remembered" happened at Ford's Theater in 1915. We do care about what they wrote down, or told a reporter, in April 1865, or in some reasonable time thereafter.

DSL - 4/15/2017 - 2:45 PDT

Orange County, California

 

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by David Lifton

[David Lifton]

21 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Re the hearses, the one person I have found on Earth (not a JFK researcher as such) who remembers seeing the same live TV coverage of the arrival at Bethesda, stated by email that the hearse that arrived with Mrs. Kennedy and the Dallas casket and sat in front of the hospital for five minutes was without a doubt a black Cadillac. Not the gray Pontiac that left with the casket from Andrews.

I can't say after all this time if the hearse I saw was black or gray, and I wouldn't know a Cadillac from a Pontiac. But this guy is sure it was a black Cadillac.

 

The vehicle (containing Jacueline Kennedy, RFK, Dr. Burkley, etc.)  that arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital was a naval ambulance, and it was driven by SS Agent William Greer.  This is obvious from motion picture footage covering the Andrews arrival.  You can see Jacqueline Kennedy getting into the ambulance at Andrews Air Force Base.  As recorded by live TV coverage, the naval ambulance left Andrews at 6:10 PM PST. 

The naval ambulance, under motorcycle escort, and followed by limousines carrying (for example) FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill, made an uninterrupted journey from Andrews AFB to Bethesda.  I repeat: it was an uninterrupted journey.  No stops.

In 1967, I interviewed SS Agent Greer by phone, and he agreed to send me a map of the route he took. It matched perfectly what Manchester reported, based on his interview with Greer.

The notion that that the vehicle that pulled up at the front entrance of Bethesda was "without a doubt a black Cadillac" is completely incorrect; and a complete contradiction of the known historical record.  Its a seriously incorrect recollection; or, alternatively stated, an assertion that is not based on any credible data.

A novelist can get away with an assertion like that, but not anyone practicing the craft of journalism or history.

DSL

4/15/2018 - 3:05 PM PDT

Orange County, California

[Ron Ecker]

David,

Thanks for your posts. I devoted a thread some time ago to what I remember seeing, and I allowed at the time that it could very well be a false memory. In fact the title of the thread is "False Memory and the Hearse at Bethesda." I have the memory nonetheless.

And according to my possibly false memory, it did seem like the hearse sat there for more than five minutes. "12 minutes" rings a bell, I may have read it somewhere in your book, but I went along with the "five minutes" earlier in this thread because two sources cited agree it was about five minutes. 

I have one question about Griggs and the other sources you cite on "the ambulance" in front of Bethesda. Did they ever identify it as a gray Pontiac, being of course the one that left Andrews, or is it always just "the ambulance"?