David Lifton teases Final Charade on the Night Fright Show

[David Lifton]

21 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

Re the hearses, the one person I have found on Earth (not a JFK researcher as such) who remembers seeing the same live TV coverage of the arrival at Bethesda, stated by email that the hearse that arrived with Mrs. Kennedy and the Dallas casket and sat in front of the hospital for five minutes was without a doubt a black Cadillac. Not the gray Pontiac that left with the casket from Andrews.

I can't say after all this time if the hearse I saw was black or gray, and I wouldn't know a Cadillac from a Pontiac. But this guy is sure it was a black Cadillac.

 

The vehicle (containing Jacueline Kennedy, RFK, Dr. Burkley, etc.)  that arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital was a naval ambulance, and it was driven by SS Agent William Greer.  This is obvious from motion picture footage covering the Andrews arrival.  You can see Jacqueline Kennedy getting into the ambulance at Andrews Air Force Base.  As recorded by live TV coverage, the naval ambulance left Andrews at 6:10 PM PST. 

The naval ambulance, under motorcycle escort, and followed by limousines carrying (for example) FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill, made an uninterrupted journey from Andrews AFB to Bethesda.  I repeat: it was an uninterrupted journey.  No stops.

In 1967, I interviewed SS Agent Greer by phone, and he agreed to send me a map of the route he took. It matched perfectly what Manchester reported, based on his interview with Greer.

The notion that that the vehicle that pulled up at the front entrance of Bethesda was "without a doubt a black Cadillac" is completely incorrect; and a complete contradiction of the known historical record.  Its a seriously incorrect recollection; or, alternatively stated, an assertion that is not based on any credible data.

A novelist can get away with an assertion like that, but not anyone practicing the craft of journalism or history.

DSL

4/15/2018 - 3:05 PM PDT

Orange County, California

[Ron Ecker]

David,

Thanks for your posts. I devoted a thread some time ago to what I remember seeing, and I allowed at the time that it could very well be a false memory. In fact the title of the thread is "False Memory and the Hearse at Bethesda." I have the memory nonetheless.

And according to my possibly false memory, it did seem like the hearse sat there for more than five minutes. "12 minutes" rings a bell, I may have read it somewhere in your book, but I went along with the "five minutes" earlier in this thread because two sources cited agree it was about five minutes. 

I have one question about Griggs and the other sources you cite on "the ambulance" in front of Bethesda. Did they ever identify it as a gray Pontiac, being of course the one that left Andrews, or is it always just "the ambulance"?

 

 

[Ron Ecker]

I would like to make this summation on the question at hand.

All evidence seems to point to my memory of watching live coverage of the arrival at Bethesda as being a false memory. But I will probably go to my grave believing that the memory is true. My epitaph will say, "I still think I saw it."

And my theory, in believing that the memory is true, is that any tape of live TV coverage of the naval ambulance's arrival at Bethesda was destroyed at some time soon after. So that no researchers such as David or Mack would ever find any visual record of that coverage, as if no such coverage ever happened. And why would it be destroyed? Simply because of all the deception that went on that night, regarding ambulances or hearses and coffins, of which David is so well aware. Any visual record of the ambulance for some reason just sitting there with the coffin for 12 minutes just wasn't a good idea.

Now I would like to ask a question of all of those here who may be old enough like me to have lived through those terrible days. You may recall that there was continuous TV coverage of assassination news that weekend without commercial interruption. So if you remember watching TV on the night of the assassination, say around 7 o'clock EST, do you remember what coverage you watched? 

 

 

 

 

[David Von Pein]

43 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

All evidence seems to point to my memory of watching live coverage of the arrival at Bethesda as being a false memory. But I will probably go to my grave believing that the memory is true. My epitaph will say, "I still think I saw it."

And my theory, in believing that the memory is true, is that any tape of live TV coverage of the naval ambulance's arrival at Bethesda was destroyed at some time soon after.

Ron,

I wonder if perhaps you could have seen the footage of the gray ambulance arriving at the White House at 4:30 AM on Nov. 23rd (at 2:34:20 in the video below), and your memory has made the mistake of equating that footage with supposed TV coverage of that very same gray Navy ambulance arriving at Bethesda. Is that possible?

Anyway, I'm nearly 100% certain there was no TV coverage of the ambulance arrival at Bethesda. I certainly have no such footage in my video archives at any rate.

I know that this kind of "I think I saw it" phenomenon is quite common regarding various aspects of the JFK case. Some people insist they actually SAW the assassination of JFK on live television at the moment it happened. We all now know that's impossible, however. But the people who say they saw it LIVE have a hard time being convinced they didn't really see it live.

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by David Von Pein

[David Lifton]

As I recall, the vehicle was identified as the ambulance from which Jackie (and RFK) exited.

Very likely, it was referred to as "the ambulance" or "the naval ambulance."

I do not know whether it was identified by color.

Of course. at Andrews, the network radio announcer said, "And a gray navy ambulance is backing up towards the side of AF-1" or some such thing. You can check the Best Evidence Reearch Video for the soundtrack of that.

 

DSL

[Ron Ecker]

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Ron,

I wonder if perhaps you could have seen the footage of the gray ambulance arriving at the White House at 4:30 AM on Nov. 23rd (at 2:34:20 in the video below), and your memory has made the mistake of equating that footage with supposed TV coverage of that very same gray Navy ambulance arriving at Bethesda. Is that possible?

 

 

 

1 hour ago, David Von Pein said:

Ron,

I wonder if perhaps you could have seen the footage of the gray ambulance arriving at the White House at 4:30 AM on Nov. 23rd (at 2:34:20 in the video below), and your memory has made the mistake of equating that footage with supposed TV coverage of that very same gray Navy ambulance arriving at Bethesda. Is that possible?

 

 

David,

You're channeling Gary Mack almost word for word.

I'm pretty sure I didn't stay up till 4:30 that night. Moreover, what stands out most in my memory is how long the coffin sat out there so long, certainly longer than five minutes, seemingly unattended after Mrs. Kennedy and her party had seemed to abandon it. I remember a comment about it from a TV reporter off camera. I can see how a tape of such a thing would be destroyed, to avoid people asking what the hell was going on behind the scenes. And I don't think the ambulance just sat outside the White House that way.

It would help if anyone at all could remember what they watched on TV the night of the 22nd around 7 pm. Am I the only person who remembers watching the tube that night? I thought the whole nation was watching.

 

[David Von Pein]

9 minutes ago, Ron Ecker said:

I'm pretty sure I didn't stay up till 4:30 that night. 

Well, I think the 4:30 AM coverage was probably not aired live (although I could certainly be wrong about that). I think it was taped and then aired later, such as the replay we see above on Mike Wallace's morning news show at 7 AM. And it was no doubt replayed many times on CBS throughout the day on Saturday. You probably saw any number of the replays. 

Edited April 16, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

3 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

Well, I think the 4:30 AM coverage was probably not aired live (although I could certainly be wrong about that). I think it was taped and then aired later, such as the replay we see above on Mike Wallace's morning news show at 7 AM. And it was no doubt replayed many times on CBS throughout the day on Saturday. You probably saw any number of the replays. 

Then I'm pretty sure I saw a replay. But again, it is inconsistent with what I remember seeing quite vividly, in particular the coffin just left out there, till finally, as I remember it, a military officer got in behind the wheel and drove it away.

 

[Ron Ecker]

Since I imagine most folks here are too young to ask about TV coverage that weekend, it would be great if some of you with parents about my age (I'm 76) would ask your parents what they saw on TV that night. I would love to hear about it.

 

[David Von Pein]

I wish I had the complete day's TV coverage from 11/22. But my collection from all 3 networks  doesn't go "wall to wall" after JFK's body departs Andrews. It's only partial coverage from all of the networks after about 6:30 PM. 

However, anyone who was able to (somehow) record and save the streamed coverage that CBS' website streamed online on 11/22/2013 would therefore have access to the material CBS aired at 7 PM on 11/22/63. I wasn't able to record that wall-to-wall 2013 stream, though.

Edited April 16, 2018 by David Von Pein

[Ron Ecker]

14 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

I wish I had the complete day's TV coverage from 11/22. But my collection from all 3 networks  doesn't go "wall to wall" after JFK's body departs Andrews. It's only partial coverage from all of the networks after about 6:30 PM. 

 

My recollection is that there was "wall to wall" coverage until the funeral, but of course that could be a really false memory.

 

 

[David Von Pein]

The networks didn't broadcast all night long. They signed off at about 1 AM each night (except for NBC on Sunday night/ Monday morning, which, I think, televised a static shot of the casket lying in the Rotunda all night long).

[Ron Ecker]

4 minutes ago, David Von Pein said:

The networks didn't broadcast all night long. They signed off at about 1 AM each night (except for NBC on Sunday night/ Monday morning, which, I think, televised a static shot of the casket lying in the Rotunda all night long).

Yeah, I guess those were still the days of test patterns on your TV screen after 1 am or so. I meant wall to wall coverage during broadcast hours. No commercials.

 

 

 

[Micah Mileto]

5 hours ago, David Lifton said:

FBI agents Sibert and O'Neill,

unrelated:

Would you agree that Francis X. O'Neill intentionally lied about witnessing the true end of the autopsy and the beginning of the reconstruction to quell any suspicion of them being absent from crucial moments in the body examination? I think you've said before in the "Wayne, there was no brain" case that O'Neill had a personal dislike for conspiracy theories based on the autopsy.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Micah Mileto

[Trygve V. Jensen]

7 hours ago, David Von Pein said:

Well, I think the 4:30 AM coverage was probably not aired live (although I could certainly be wrong about that). I think it was taped and then aired later, such as the replay we see above on Mike Wallace's morning news show at 7 AM. And it was no doubt replayed many times on CBS throughout the day on Saturday. You probably saw any number of the replays. 

The Criticalpast - site, state it contain more than 57.000 videos, and 7 million images. It seemingly though only contain a small amount of the footage regarding the assassination, - and the aftermath, - in the following days. As well as the day of the funeral.

What helped a lot, was that one can search from - and to, a specific date, - as well as location. But one encounters this problem, when attempting to find specific events recorded , ---- which above quote mention,  - that footage was taped, aired later, -  replayed multiple times etc.

A search with date-criteria "1963-11-22" --- to --- "1963-11-25" gives 108 results alone. But may be necessary, (increasing the date-span) just in order to find replayed footage from the day of the assassination for instance.

Another problem is even though the site provide information of each video , such as, -- date, location, clip type, color/monochrome, sound etc, -- it does not provide information about the source of the footage.

Like this clip for instance, (duration 2m42s) - which I downloaded a 1920x1080 60i , --- 2GB version of. It would be interesting , if nothing else, to know the source. Perhaps it is a mix , with multiple sources. Some of it seemed familiar, - some of it less familiar. Euins, the "old lady", Williams,Arce, Lt. Day, Decker etc. ----- 168 stills from it is also available.

http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65675033711_Texas-School-Book-Depository_officials_policemen-and-dignitaries_men-take-pictures

The site support - team say they have uploaded about 1/2 of their videos to Youtube, - so that is nice in itself.

Edited April 16, 2018 by Trygve V. Jensen