Alistair Briggs Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 *My words you quoted and highlighted - I was being a bit facetious btw (hope that came across ) Alas Sandy I can't give a specific example of either Lovelady or Shelley appearing to be lying. (Without trying to sound overly defensive I feel I should qualify that somewhat by saying that I don't equate being wrong with lying ) Anyroads, earlier on in this thread you gave a timeline for Lovelady/Shelley in which you put their re-entry at the back to 07:00 minutes; earlier on Robert mentioned that Shelley told the FBI that he and Lovelady returned 'about 10 minutes later'. To me, 7 minutes and about 10 minutes can be chalked up to being 'close enough', others may disagree with that. On the 'Oswald leaving TSBD' thread there has been much discussion about the 'timings' of Lovelady/Shelley, and whether or not it is them walking away in the Darnell film, and indeed whether or not the 'running woman' is Calvery. Until (chance would be a fine thing) a resolution to that is determined one way or another then it is difficult to take it from there... I suppose you and I are looking at things from a different perspective then, that's ok with me. I have a few more thoughts running in my head just now but will need to think more before commenting more on this subject here... Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said: *My words you quoted and highlighted - I was being a bit facetious btw (hope that came across ) Alas Sandy I can't give a specific example of either Lovelady or Shelley appearing to be lying. (Without trying to sound overly defensive I feel I should qualify that somewhat by saying that I don't equate being wrong with lying ) Anyroads, earlier on in this thread you gave a timeline for Lovelady/Shelley in which you put their re-entry at the back to 07:00 minutes; earlier on Robert mentioned that Shelley told the FBI that he and Lovelady returned 'about 10 minutes later'. To me, 7 minutes and about 10 minutes can be chalked up to being 'close enough', others may disagree with that. On the 'Oswald leaving TSBD' thread there has been much discussion about the 'timings' of Lovelady/Shelley, and whether or not it is them walking away in the Darnell film, and indeed whether or not the 'running woman' is Calvery. Until (chance would be a fine thing) a resolution to that is determined one way or another then it is difficult to take it from there... I suppose you and I are looking at things from a different perspective then, that's ok with me. I have a few more thoughts running in my head just now but will need to think more before commenting more on this subject here... Regards Thanks Alistair. Please don't get the impression that I disagree with or are challenging you. I am only trying to get people to tell me what the alleged lies are so that I can see if they damage a theory I'm working on. I wrote the request for alleged lies to you only because you commented on them in a general way. I know that you're a bit green on this topic, as am I. Truth is, I want to hear from anybody who thinks Shelley and Lovelady lied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 No worries at all Sandy, I enjoy having my ideas challenged (I'm forever challenging my own ideas anyway). I don't think that they lied, but I do think that they were wrong in what they said... well, actually, I am working on a theory (based on their WC testimony only at the moment) that there was something of a 'communication breakdown'. I've not go too far in to it to test it from 'all angles'... knowing my luck it won't lead to anything of note. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 On 1/1/2017 at 8:52 PM, Sandy Larsen said: In the other, related thread there's been a lot of talk on whether Shelley and Lovelady set out for the railroad yard around 30 seconds after the shooting (which supports Baker's testimony and the official story), or 3 to 4 minutes after the shooting (which is what Shelley and Lovelady testified to for the WC). Then after visiting the railroad yard, they went back in the TSBD's west entrance. Now I'm reminded that Vickie Adams' testified that she saw Shelley and Lovelady when she exited the stairwell on the first floor. (I had been thinking that it was only Lovelady who testified to that "encounter.") According to Adams, she ran down the stairs immediately after the shooting. If Adam's is right, then Shelley and Lovelady had to have gone back inside the TSBD soon after the shooting, without having visited the railroad yard at all (not after 30 seconds, not after 3 minutes). So if Vickie Adams is to be believed -- and I do believe her at the moment -- either all that stuff about walking down Elm St. extension and visiting the railroad yard is pure fabrication, or it's true but separate from Shelley and Lovelady going inside right after the shooting! That is to say, they went back into the TSBD shortly after the shooting, at which time Victoria Adams saw them, and then after that they went outside again and made their excursion down Elm St. extension and the railroad yard. It's interesting to note that in both Shelley and Lovelady's first day affidavits, they said they went right back into the TSBD. EDIT: It turns out that Victoria Adams later told the author of "The Girl on the Stairs" that her Shelley/Lovelady sighting did NOT occur. It must have been added by the WC. It started with Leavelle re-interviewing Adams. Adams denied ever stating this to Leavelle (this is all thoroughly written down by Barry Ernest in his book The Girl On The Stairs) That is where the addition of the sighting originated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Bart, could you clarify that I my understanding is correct here, Vickie Adams denied telling Leavelle that she saw Mr Shelley and another employee named Bill? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Correct Alistair. It's in the book which I have not handy. The whole thing was fabricated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Thanks Bart. That interview is hard to find (I think). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Bart, I have not read the book, so I apologise up front if any of my questions seem obvious/simple/daft... I did read the article in the link earlier which was in regards to it... *The Leavelle statement of Vickie Adams was taken on the 17th of February 1964, her WC testimony was taken on the 7th of April 1964. Is the implication then that the reference to Shelley/Lovelady in her WC testimony was subsequently added because it had been added to Leavelles? And that Adams during her WC testimony made no mention of them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 From what I remember: Leavelle got the interview under false pretences, he claimed they had a fire and her statement had gone into ashes. This had not happened. She also stated that she had never said that, about S&L. Trying to find the book....my missus has 're-arranged my book shelf' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) This review captures it nicely. If your interest is TSBD then you have to read this book, yes it is that essential! https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-reviews/ernst-barry-the-girl-on-the-stairs Barry did some further digging into her testimony and statements. It turned out that the Dallas Police questioned her also. This was on February 17th. Way after the FBI and Warren Commission had taken over control of the case from the DPD. In reading this statement, Barry discovered that it was this report that inserted Lovelady and Shelley into her story. It was written by none other than the avuncular, smiling Jim Leavelle. The man who accompanied Oswald out of police HQ to be killed by Jack Ruby. (p. 76) But further, Barry noticed that there was no questioning of the other three women who were watching the motorcade with Adams: Styles, Elsie Dorman, and Dorothy Garner. He thought this was odd since they could confirm if Adams left the window quickly, as she said she had. "It was not until 2002, when his son convinced him to buy a computer to type his book, that he found Adams via email. What follows, in Chapters 27 through 29, is a fascinating, long interview with Adams, now aged 61. She goes over her experience that day in full detail: arriving at work, waiting for the motorcade, running down the stairs, seeing Ruby in suit and hat talking to people like a reporter, etc. This interview is really the high point of the book. What it reveals about Leavelle, the Dallas Police, and David Belin is powerful stuff. Adams concludes that Oswald could not have been on those stairs. He was not on the sixth floor at the time of the shooting, he was on a lower floor. (p. 211) Beginning to master the Internet, Barry then finds Sandra Styles. (p. 217) She confirms Adams. She says the two left the window when Secret Service agent Clint Hill jumped on the back of the car. (p. 218) And she said she neither saw nor heard anyone on the stairs on the way down. And she did not recall Lovelady or Shelley on the ground floor when they got there either. (p. 219) Styles said the only interview she gave was to the FBI and it was not in depth or probing.£ Edited January 3, 2017 by Bart Kamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Cheers Bart, I will read through that link as soon as I can. I wonder if there is an article online that details exactly what Adams says was changed/added to her WC testimony. If there is I can't find it (but that might be because of my lack of skills in finding it). As an aside, just come it popped in to my head, when it comes to the stenographers how accurate are they - in reading the WC testimony of VIckie Adams there is the wrong name used (and it goes unchallanged) and I wonder whether it is an error on the part of Mr Belin or the stenographer (I suppose there is no way of knowing really), but in terms of the 'punctuation' I wonder how accurate they are... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Those details are in the book. She also sent corrections which were never picked up upon. Also in the book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 This will help as well to familiarise yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 Good stuff Bart, cheers. I suppose I will have to do a lot more digging here and see what I can find... will probably have to buy the book to satisfy my curiosity. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2017 Share Posted January 3, 2017 (edited) It's worth buying the book. Oh and I forgot my own page http://www.prayer-man.com/tsbd/victoria-adams/ Sandra Styles confirmed the fraud when she told Ernest that she too did NOT see Lovelady or Shelley upon reaching the first floor. Victoria Adams stated in Barry Ernest’s book that the Shelley/Lovelady passage had been inserted into her testimony. She said those were not her words, they didn’t sound at all like the way she would have said it, and the passage was NOT in the original testimony she examined in her office that afternoon. No mention was made of the Shelley/Lovelady encounter in any of the other interviews she did with authorities except for the one with Det. Leavelle of the DPD. Whether Lovelady’s claim to have spotted “Vicky” at the bottom of the rear stairs after coming into the rear of the TSBD 3-4 minutes after the shooting was prompted off-the-record during his testimony or fraudulently inserted afterward by Belin or Joseph Ball is anyone’s guess. But it didn’t happen. Edited January 3, 2017 by Bart Kamp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now