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HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.


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3 hours ago, Lance Payette said:

...The point is, this all becomes significant mostly if one takes it as axiomatic that there was a large-scale conspiracy and many people were lying/fabricating (down to the level of unsophisticated characters like Shelley, Lovelady, Baker and Truly, who would not have been on my roster for a Presidential assassination conspiracy).  If one not only takes this as axiomatic but is also committed almost as an article of some religious creed that LHO is PM, then it all has to be force-fit into this creed.  People are assumed to be lying, and to have a motive for lying, when the only real motive is on the part of those who are trying to force-fit the evidence into their creed.  This is not how a rational approach to solving a case works.

 

I just came from an extended discussion with some folks who are truly committed, as a matter of genuine religious faith, to the position that the earth is flat.  No, they really are – it took me awhile to recognize that this was the case and that we were not simply playing some mind game for our mutual amusement.  Anyway, the discussion was quite similar to the ones concerning PM and ancillary PM side-issues.  When there is a good case for a conspiracy (for example, along the lines of what Larry Hancock has suggested), I continue to find it fascinating that seemingly sane people are attracted to the "flat earth" theories of the assassination. 

Lance,

This is well-stated.  Yet somebody is surely lying -- and the main question is to figure out WHO.  Therefore, the past half-century has seen many CT's:

1. The CIA-did-it CT
2. The Mafia-did-it CT
3. The LBJ-did-it CT
4. The Fidel-did-it CT
5. The USSR-did-it CT
6. The Walker-did-it CT

And others.  Depending on one's CT orientation, the accusations of fabrication are issued selectively.  So far, nothing has really fit all the evidence -- except, IMHO, the Walker-did-it theory.  (Just review the WC testimony of Robert Alan Surrey, General Walker and Bernard Weissman for starters.  The answer begins to glare out.)

I don't doubt the honesty of Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker in the slightest.  They were sloppy sometimes, but basically honest.  One has to FORCE the TIMING one desires if one is going to accuse any of them of fabrication.  I think sloppiness explains all the TIMING in their testimonies.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo
 

 

Edited by Paul Trejo
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5 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

One way would be that he left after the encounter with Baker and Truly on the front steps rather than on the supposed second floor meeting.

That is a possibility Ray

What is the evidence for it though? Oswald telling Fritz he was outside with Shelley, and the thought that Prayer Man is Oswald. Remembering that Oswald didn't say he was outside on the steps at the time of the shooting, and Shelley testified that he had left the steps before Baker had even got to the first step! Something doesn't quite add up there.

3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

My problem with this is that Bugliosi accepts that Lee Harvey Oswald actually said those words.  Yet those words were not recorded at the time that Oswald was in custody, but WEEKS LATER, by the admission of Captain Will Fritz himself.  By that time, Fritz had plenty of time to coordinate these "notes" with the local conspirators.

I don't believe one single word that was forced into the mouth of LHO while he was under arrest.  LHO was framed -- not by the CIA -- but by Dallas Police Department rogues, working with General Walker and the Radical Right in Dallas.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul, I accept that Bugliosi accepts that Lee Harvey Oswald actually said those words, and I accept that it was weeks later that Fritz finally 'wrote up his notes'... and with the fact that the interrogations with Oswald were not recorded, it is impossible to know for sure what was or wasn't said.

However does the fact that it is impossible to know mean that it should be ignored its entirety? Personally, I don't think so!

You mention two things, Paul, that could be of paramount importance;

1)  that Fritz had plenty of time coordinate these "notes" with the local conspirators and 2) you don't believe one single word that was forced into the mouth of LHO while he was under arrest.

If Fritz, with the local conspirators, had a free reign to (after the fact) 'force words' into the mouth of LHO, one would have to presume that the reasons for doing so would be to frame him, and thus they would have him saying more things that implicated him in the crime. Yet, in the passage I quote from Bugliosi's book, not only does what Oswald say not implicate him in the crime, but it goes a long way to doing the exact polar opposite. There are many other examples of just the same. It seems odd to me that a 'conspirator' having the chance to implicate further the 'patsy' does not take the opportunity to do it more thoroughly (or indeed very much at all)...

In your next post you said,

38 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Now -- Vickie Adams does not specifically address TIMING, although she does address SEQUENCE.   One must force the word, "immediately" into her sentence to fit it in there.

Yes in the part of her testimony that you posted Vickie Adams does not specifically address timing! However later on in her testimony the timing is quite thoroughly addressed...

I actually posted about her WC testimony timing in the 'Did Lovelady Let A Cat Out Of The Bag' thread, in this comment here. and it was as a result of the conversation there that Sandy decided to start this thread with his posited timeline of Shelley & Lovelady.

53 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

The trouble is that if we insert the word, "immediately" into her sentence, then we must somehow explain how Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady were on the 1st floor within 1-2 minutes of the JFK shots -- but even Shelley-Lovelady do not claim that.  They took a long walk to the Grassy Knoll and back before they returned to the 1st floor about ten minutes later (as Shelley said in his sworn affidavit).

Therefore -- the more likely scenario is that Vickie Adams, following the 3rd shot, along with Sandra Styles, walked to the back of the TSBD building (which is the north side) and looked out the windows for awhile, talking about the shocking tragedy, and hoping to see something out the windows.  Then, after several minutes, they went down the back stairs, and met Shelley-Lovelady on the 1st floor.

I would be interested to see where the "ten minutes later (as Shelley said in his sworn affidavit)" comes from? Sandy in his first post, using the testimony of Shelley has put it at 7 minutes later! (I'm actually yet to be convinced on that matter). I do think that Adams underplayed her timing somewhat, and that it did take her longer than 2 minutes for her to reach the bottom stairs, but not 'several minutes' later!

41 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Depending on one's CT orientation, the accusations of fabrication are issued selectively.  So far, nothing has really fit all the evidence --
 

An interesting thing to say, one that I would find myself saying/thinking too, although I would put something of a caveat to it - that being that because of the 'nature of the beast' there is no way that ALL the evidence could fit. ;)

44 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

I don't doubt the honesty of Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker in the slightest.  They were sloppy sometimes, but basically honest.  One has to FORCE the TIMING one desires if one is going to accuse any of them of fabrication.  I think sloppiness explains all the TIMING in their testimonies.
 

I agree that 'sloppiness' may explain the timing, not necassarily just sloppiness in what they said, but also sloppiness in the questions they were asked.

However, considering some of the 'timing' mentioned in this thread already and indeed some of the ideas put forward, how does the idea that Adams/Shelley/Lovelady/Truly/Baker were basically honest tie in with what their timings (as per the WC testimony) state...

I suppose it comes down to how wrong their timings were, but can sloppiness explain a difference between 2 minutes and 7 minutes (or 10 minutes) - is that too much of a leap? There has to be something of a limit on how wrong someone can be on timing.

My own thinking at this time (and it is something I am working on) is that yes, in agreeance with what Paul wrote, Adams/Shelley/Lovelady/Truly/Baker were basically honest and sloppiness of timing has led to confusion, and that it could be possible to reconcile all their testimony (although the Shelley/Lovelady testimony is the most difficult one to do it with).

Regards

P.S. Sorry if that post is a bit jumpy over different topics, there is so much more I could have added. ;) Very interesting to see different perspectives on the whole topic; I enjoy that, and long may it continue. :)

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Alistair,

The ten minutes comes from the March 18, 1964 affidavit of Bill Shelley.--

--Paul 

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Alistair,

I read your post on Vickie Adams timing and it seems to me that the questions to her were unclear.  

It took her 30 seconds to get to the stair, but no reason to assume they rushed down immediately.

Otherwise the ten minutes of Bill make no sense.

Paul

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23 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

*Whilst I was typing the following post, there has been a few more posts posted above, so apologies if this now seems out of order, and indeed apologies if it mentions anything that has just been mentioned, and indeed apologies if it is going in the wrong direction from the above few posts. (It took me too long to type it. ;) )

Anyroads,

In Shelley's testimony he stated that...

Mr. BALL - When you came into the shipping room did you see anybody?
Mr. SHELLEY - I saw Eddie Piper.
Mr. BALL - What was he doing?
Mr. SHELLEY - He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.
Mr. BALL - Of the first floor of the building?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes.

Eddie Piper's testimony

Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor?
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?
Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow---I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.
Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed?
Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.
Mr. BALL. A police officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on?
Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.
Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.
Mr. BALL. They were the first ones to go up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir.
Mr. BALL. They weren't the first ones to come down?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; and when the elevators come down---I really don't know who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the steps.
Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr. BALL. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr. PIPER. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.

The last part there of Piper's testimony is quite interesting, he makes the statement that he did not see Vicki Adams come down the steps and infers that it means she must have come down after Truly (and Baker) went up the stairs. But to all intents and purposes we know that Adams came down the steps before Truly and Baker went up them, ergo Piper is wrong on this point, and Adams must have come down the stairs before Piper had a chance to see it happening. It is possible that only a couple of seconds before Piper turned his attention to the stairs that Adams could have come down and moved in a direction that Piper, when turning towards the stairs wouldn't have seen her.

Then from looking at what Shelley said about seeing Piper when he came in via tha back door, he says that he saw Piper coming from where he was watching the motorcade - although no time is given here in reference to Shelley seeing Piper, the question that has to be asked is what does 'coming from' mean?

This all leads to some interesting questions in regards to the posited '7 minutes' after the shots that Shelley and Lovelady re-entered from the building at the back.

Let's assume that Piper is correct and Adams didn't come down until after Truly and Baker went up the stairs, then it must have been a long time after because neither Truly or Baker make mention of passing her on the stairs, yet Adams testimony states that she had made it down off the stairs and to the back door in the region of 90 seconds to 2 minutes - the logical conclusion then is that Adams made it down and away from the stairs without Piper seeing her, and before Truly and Baker ran up the stairs. This also gives something of a timeline for when Truly and Baker started up the stairs - at a time (slightly) after Adams had made it down, so +90seconds to +2minutes from the time of the shots.

None of that necessarily detracts from the thought that Shelley and Lovelady re-entered the back of the building 7 minutes after the shots, but it would lead to the conclusion that when Shelley says he saw Piper 'coming from' where he saw the motorcade that would be 5 minutes (approx.) later than when Piper could have 'come from' where he was...

...The testimony of Adams is quite important to this too. In her testimony she states that she saw Shelley and Lovelady at the back door. Some claim that this was inserted in to her testimony to discredit her because her timings on coming down the stairs left no room for the 'official version' of Oswald having the time to get to the 2nd floor - she didn't see or hear him! If that was included to discredit her timing testimony, and it was indeed 7 minutes after the shots that Lovelady/Shelley got to the back of the building, then we have Adams coming down the stairs well after Baker and Truly went up the stairs, but that doesn't really make sense either considering what Adams has said about her timing and indeed what Sandra Styles has said (albeit not in testimony).

Again, the timing of Adams doesn't necessarily detract from the Shelley/Lovelady entering after 7 minutes idea (especially if the seeing them was indeed an addition to her testimony). And of course, none of the above necessarily means that Oswald wasn't out on the front steps (as some claim) and/or that the 2nd floor encounter never happened (as some claim).

However there is another point of view that could reconcile all of the above people's testimony; it's just that to do so would be to imply that the questioning of both Lovelady and (moreso) Shelley was so sloppy that the two of them weren't able to keep up with what was being asked and were getting confused.


Alistair,

I believe it can easily be shown that there need be no inconsistencies in the testimony you cite above, if we take it as fact that Victoria Adams' alleged sighting of Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs is a WC fabrication.

The evidence for the Shelley/Lovelady sighting being fabricated is strong IMO, and is documented in the book "The Girl on the Stairs" by Barry Ernest." A summary of the evidence was posted on another thread recently. It is quite convincing IMO. I believe that Bart Kamp posted it.

Here is the sequence of events that fits the above testimony together.

  • The shooting occurs.
  • Victoria Adams descends and reaches the bottom of the stairs within 90 seconds of the shooting. She sees no one and exits the west door.
  • Baker and Truly enter the floor about  3 or 4 minutes after the shooting.
  • Piper comes back from watching the procession and subsequent commotion, about 7 minutes after the shooting. As he begins to come in he spots Truly and Baker entering the stairway. (Truly and Baker head up the stairs.)
  • Shelley and Lovelady enter the west door, also about 7 minutes after the shooting. Shelley sees Piper walking back in.

For this timing to work out, Baker and Truly must not have immediately run up the stairs. But hey, they had already taken 3  to 4 minutes (according to Shelley and Lovelady) just to enter the TSBD. So that shouldn't come as a big surprise.

Note that the Piper/Baker/Shelley timing is so tight that Shelley and Lovelady just barely missed seeing Baker and Truly enter the stairway. If we were ever to see testimony from Shelley or Lovelady that they indeed did see Truly and Baker enter the stairway, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I read your post on Vickie Adams timing and it seems to me that the questions to her were unclear.  

It took her 30 seconds to get to the stair, but no reason to assume they rushed down immediately.

Otherwise the ten minutes of Bill make no sense.

Paul

I am of the opinion that the questioning of Vickie Adams by Mr Belin are very clear.

Here's an example.

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

Here you have Adams saying that she left the window approx. 15-30 seconds approximately after the shots. She is then asked directly how long it took to get from the window to the top of the  4th floor stairs and she says she can't answer that accurately as it would be too difficult to say without a stopwatch, she is then asked instead to say how long it took from leaving the window to get to the bottom of the stairs, and she answers that with 'no longer than a minute', then she is asked to clarify that time she responds 'yes, approximately'.

You mention that there was no reason to assume they rushed down immediately, otherwise the ten minutes of Bill makes no sense!

First of all it is important to take in to account the following part of Adams testimony;

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Definitely.
Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.

From looking at what Adams testified then we can draw the conclusion that she took 1 and a half minutes from the time of the shots to reaching the bottom of the first floor and then another 30 seconds before seeing Shelley/Lovelady. Now whilst there is a good chance her timings were off (in all likliehood she is recalling her movements as having happened faster than they may have done) is it likely that she has confused 2 minutes with 10 minutes?

In terms of the '

*One thing to note at this junction is that whilst there was no recreation of Adams movements done, there was a recreation done of 'Oswald's alleged movements from the 6th floor to the 2nd floor lunchroom'...

From the testimony of Baker (on the subject of the 'recreation')

Mr. BELIN - Did we make any or do any stopwatch tests about any route from the southeast corner of the sixth floor down to the lunchroom?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; we made two test runs.

and then later on,

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember how long that took?
Mr. BAKER - The first run with normal walking took us a minute and 18 seconds.
Mr. BELIN - What about the second time?
Mr. BAKER - And the second time we did it at a fast walk which took us a minute and 14 seconds.
Mr. BELIN - You saw the stopwatch on all of these timing occasions when it was started and when it was stopped, is that correct?
Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.

Consider that Adams has testified that it took approx. 1 minute from the point of leaving the window on the fourth floor until reaching the first floor. (That's down 3 floors) and that during their test of Oswald's alleged movements it took 1 minute and 18 seconds at normal walking to go from the window on the 6th floor until reaching the 2nd floor lunchroom (That's down 4 floors).

The inference is quite clear, Adams could have made that journey without being 'rushed' about it. ;)

Regards

P.S. Sandy has responded whilst this was being typed, I will respond in next comment.

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Excellent breakdown and analysis, Alistair.

I must admit, I thought you were a bit of a dud when you first started posting here but you have certainly proven me wrong on that count.

P.S.

I cringe whenever someone says Adams MUST have taken longer or Shelley's "ten minute" statement doesn't work.

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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51 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Alistair,

I believe it can easily be shown that there need be no inconsistencies in the testimony you cite above, if we take it as fact that Victoria Adams' alleged sighting of Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs is a WC fabrication.

The evidence for the Shelley/Lovelady sighting being fabricated is strong IMO, and is documented in the book "The Girl on the Stairs" by Barry Ernest." A summary of the evidence was posted on another thread recently. It is quite convincing IMO. I believe that Bart Kamp posted it.

Here is the sequence of events that fits the above testimony together.

  • The shooting occurs.
  • Victoria Adams descends and reaches the bottom of the stairs within 90 seconds of the shooting. She sees no one and exits the west door.
  • Baker and Truly enter the floor about  3 or 4 minutes after the shooting.
  • Piper comes back from watching the procession and subsequent commotion, about 7 minutes after the shooting. As he begins to come in he spots Truly and Baker entering the stairway. (Truly and Baker head up the stairs.)
  • Shelley and Lovelady enter the west door, also about 7 minutes after the shooting. Shelley sees Piper walking back in.

For this timing to work out, Baker and Truly must not have immediately run up the stairs. But hey, they had already taken 3  to 4 minutes (according to Shelley and Lovelady) just to enter the TSBD. So that shouldn't come as a big surprise.

Note that the Piper/Baker/Shelley timing is so tight that Shelley and Lovelady just barely missed seeing Baker and Truly enter the stairway. If we were ever to see testimony from Shelley or Lovelady that they indeed did see Truly and Baker enter the stairway, I wouldn't be surprised.

 

 

If we do indeed take it as fact that Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley/Lovelady was a WC fabrication, then we also have to take Bakers WC testimony as a fabrication also, surely...

At this moment I have quite serious doubts that the sighting of Shelley/Lovelady being a WC fabrication!

I can see the possible strength in the argument that Adams claimed the part of seeing Shelley/Lovelady was added by Leavelle in his statement on the 17th of February  - it was after all an individual line therein. But that isn't the case when it comes to her WC testimony - it's not just an individual line about the incident, it's not even just one question about it... it's mentioned numerous times throughout the WC testimony and naturally (imo) flows both before and after!

If for example one was to take out the parts in regards to Shelley/Lovelady from the WC testimony of Vickie Adams then they have to remove so much that the line of questioning does not flow - in fact it wouldn't make much sense.

I do appreciate your thinking on the subject and appreciate that you are working logically towards a conclusion of your theory - I'm not trying to prove you are mistaken just offering up some alternative views on the subject. ;)

Regards

P.S. I wonder what your thoughts (if any) are on the difference in questioning style between Mr Belin and Mr Ball?

P.P.S not sure what to say about what Robert just said about me ;) May be best to say nothing in response. lol

Edited by Alistair Briggs
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20 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

 

On 1/4/2017 at 4:28 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

     

If we accept the scenario of this thread (Shelley's and Lovelady's testimony being correct), then Oswald must have been standing on the TSBD entryway at least immediately following the shooting, and quite possibly before and during the shooting as well! That is, if Oswald told the truth when he said he was outside with Shelley.

 

Sandy,

This CT breaks down for me quickly -- because none of the many TSBD workers standing at the Front Door of the TSBD at the time of the JFK shots has ever said "Yes, Mr. Liebeler, Lee Harvey Oswald was really standing or sitting near us -- or hanging around our social circle there at the front door, gawking at the events.

If Prayer Man was Oswald, and was standing back in the corner (where I believe PM was), I believe he could have been missed by most the people on the steps. Especially since, as Ray pointed out, he was a fairly new hire. He was the type who kept to himself and so people didn't know him well.

Of course people like Lovelady, Frazier, and Shelley knew Oswald. If any of these guys noticed Oswald standing there, I think it would have been Frazier and/or Lovelady. Is it possible that nobody noticed him standing there? I think so, if he walked back in before the others. Is it possible for Frazier and/or Lovelady to have noticed Oswald being there, only soon afterward to be  instructed to remain silent. I don't know. Maybe, if he was paid till his death to stay quiet.

The alternatives to that happening are 1) Oswald lied about being out with Shelley, and 2) Fritz lying that Oswald claimed that. I'm not sure why either of these would have happened..

Notice, however, that none of these possibilities ruins the premise of this thread.

No TSBD eye-witnesses places LHO at the crowded front door for the first 30 minutes after the JFK assassination.  By that time LHO is already taking alternate transportation away from the TSBD area.  Was it a Rambler Stationwagaon as DPD Sheriff Deputy Roger Craig believed?

You say, Sandy, "If Oswald told the truth when he said he was outside with Shelly...  Um, when did he say this?  To whom?  Who heard it?  Who recorded it?

It was recorded by SA James Bookhout in an interrogation of Oswald on 11/22/63. David Josephs posted the transcript on page 1 of this thread. It is also on Fritz's handwritten notes.

Another rumor that starts with the Dallas DPD officers? 

Who is our source on LHO leaving the building.  There were lots of eye-witneses covering the TSBD building at the time.

Regards,

 

 

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14 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

According to Shelley (W.C. Testimony.

 

"Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir; they started coming in pretty fast.
Mr. BALL - Did you go with them any place?
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes; Mr. Truly left me guarding the elevator, not to let anybody up and down the elevator or stairway and some plainclothesmen came in; I don't know whether they were Secret Service or FBI or what but they wanted me to take them upstairs, so we went up and started searching the various floors.
Mr. BALL - Did you go up on the sixth floor? 
Mr. SHELLEY - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Were you there when they found anything up there?
Mr. SHELLEY - I was, I believe I was on the sixth floor when they found the gun but we were searching all parts of that floor."

After he returned to the TSBD he never went anywhere near the front door, so how could Oswald have been with him after the shooting. Therefore, he must have been with Shelley before the shooting.

Oswald may well have been with Shelley before the shooting. And/or during the shooting. And/or after the shooting. Because remember, Shelley was out there after the shooting for about three minutes before taking his excursion to the railroad yard. That according to his WC testimony.

No wonder they tried to erase Shelley's name from the above report.

 

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2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I am of the opinion that the questioning of Vickie Adams by Mr Belin are very clear.

Here's an example.

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

Here you have Adams saying that she left the window approx. 15-30 seconds approximately after the shots. She is then asked directly how long it took to get from the window to the top of the  4th floor stairs and she says she can't answer that accurately as it would be too difficult to say without a stopwatch, she is then asked instead to say how long it took from leaving the window to get to the bottom of the stairs, and she answers that with 'no longer than a minute', then she is asked to clarify that time she responds 'yes, approximately'.

...

Alistair,

I disagree with your conclusion on grounds of observation alone.  Let's review just this first part.  Here is how it breaks down, being very literal about it:

(1) Between the time the shots were fired and the time Vickie and Sandra left the 4th floor south window to EVEN START toward the 4th floor north window, near the stairs, was APPROXIMATELY 30 SECONDS.

(2) To actually GET TO the north window, near the stairs, Vickie REFUSED TO ESTIMATE.

(3) Belin DOES NOT ASK Vickie how long Vicke and Sandra STAYED at the northern window, near the stairs, looking down.

(4) To get from the northern TSBD stairs at the 4th floor down to the 1st floor would take no longer than ONE MINUTE.

(5) Belin asks Vickie to confirm that it was about ONE MINUTE when she left the northern window, near the stairs, to the 1st floor, and she does confirm it.

I think that many readings will leave out steps #2 and #3 above, and will just add up steps #1 and #4, and call it 90 seconds.  That's the error that has fed the myth for a half-century.

All we need to do is recognize that Belin was leading the witness -- obliterating steps #2 and #3.  Why?  Probably only to hurry the case along against LHO, and no other reason.  It wasn't even that clearly thought out.

If we allow 30 SECONDS for step #2, and then allow EIGHT FULL MINUTES for step #3, then we can match Bill Shelley's timetable, namely, that he and Billy Lovelady walked from the front of the TSBD to the Grassy Knoll parking lot, and looked around for awhile, and then walked back to the western entrance of the TSBD in about TEN MINUTES.

It is sloppy TIMING, but it is still within the realm of honesty -- given only the Witness Leading by Mr. Belin.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos
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2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...You mention that there was no reason to assume they rushed down immediately, otherwise the ten minutes of Bill makes no sense!

First of all it is important to take in to account the following part of Adams testimony;

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?
Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?
Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.
Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.
Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - Definitely.
Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?
Miss ADAMS - Yes.

From looking at what Adams testified then we can draw the conclusion that she took 1 and a half minutes from the time of the shots to reaching the bottom of the first floor and then another 30 seconds before seeing Shelley/Lovelady. Now whilst there is a good chance her timings were off (in all likliehood she is recalling her movements as having happened faster than they may have done) is it likely that she has confused 2 minutes with 10 minutes?

...

Alistair,

To summarize Vickie Adams again; when Vickie and Sandra FINALLY got to the 1st floor, it was LESS THAN 30 SECONDS before she saw Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. 

This can only be true if Vickie and Sandra dallied at the northern window near the stairs for several minutes (which Belin never asked about).  There was never any testimony about an alleged TWO MINUTES (90 + 30 seconds), so now Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimony make sense -- Vickie and Sandra spent from FIVE to EIGHT MINUTES looking out of the 4th floor northern window, near the stairs, gawking and gossiping about the JFK assassination.

There never was any confusion between TWO MINUTES with TEN MINUTES.   Belin's leading of the witness is the best explanation.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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13 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

*That last part there goes on the assumption that Oswald was telling the truth about where he was at the time of the shots and what he did after.

On the flip side, if Oswald was the shooter then he clearly couldn't have seen Shelley out front at the time but that doesn't negate the thought that he took the inference that Shelley would be out front from what may have been said earlier.

Alistair, there is no reason to believe that Oswald was a shooter. He didn't test positive on any of the gunshot residue tests. His fingerprints were not on the rifle. (His palmprint appeared only after the rifle was brought back to Dallas from Washington and visited the morgue where Oswald's body lay.) There is more evidence that he didn't buy the rifle than he did buy it. The backyard photos of Oswald holding the rifle were fabricated. And the gun in the backyard photos is not the same gun that was found in the snipers nest... after the Mouser was found.

There is no reason to entertain this possibility because it is an impossibility. IMO and with all due respect.

It's impossible to know for sure of course.

A follow on question would be if Oswald was out front with Shelley (at any time) talking to each other, why did Shelley not mention it and why indeed did no one else mention it!

A further follow on question would be why would Oswald say, that after the shots, and after the meeting with Baker/Truly, that he was out front with Bill Shelley if he couldn't for certain know that Shelley was there at that exact time? (That seems like an incredible risk to take)

 

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13 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Good points, Alistair. Oswald also apparently said that Shelley told him to go home, as there would be no more work done that day. When could this have taken place, except after the shooting and before Shelley left with Lovely?

Ray,

I thought that Oswald went back inside after being out front with Shelley. Because, for example, I recall a story of Oswald telling someone where the telephone was.

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2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

If we do indeed take it as fact that Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley/Lovelady was a WC fabrication, then we also have to take Bakers WC testimony as a fabrication also, surely...

At this moment I have quite serious doubts that the sighting of Shelley/Lovelady being a WC fabrication!

I can see the possible strength in the argument that Adams claimed the part of seeing Shelley/Lovelady was added by Leavelle in his statement on the 17th of February  - it was after all an individual line therein. But that isn't the case when it comes to her WC testimony - it's not just an individual line about the incident, it's not even just one question about it... it's mentioned numerous times throughout the WC testimony and naturally (imo) flows both before and after!

If for example one was to take out the parts in regards to Shelley/Lovelady from the WC testimony of Vickie Adams then they have to remove so much that the line of questioning does not flow - in fact it wouldn't make much sense.

I do appreciate your thinking on the subject and appreciate that you are working logically towards a conclusion of your theory - I'm not trying to prove you are mistaken just offering up some alternative views on the subject. ;)

Regards 

Alistair,

The simplest solution is the best solution -- rather than presume that EVERYBODY is lying in some huge CIA plot, it is far more likely that EVERYBODY is telling the truth except for select powerful people in Dallas.

To presume that Adams-Shelley-Lovelady-Truly-Baker are all fabricating -- even when they disagree with each other -- is superfluous. 

Here's the solution I see: the FBI and WC wanted to conceal the Truth that there was a Radical Right Conspiracy.   The Dallas conspiracy (including General Walker, Will Fritz, Bill Decker, James Humes, James Hosty, Forrest Sorrels, Robert Alan Surrey, Bernard Weissman, Buddy Walthers and a few other DPD police and deputies) wanted to keep linking LHO with the Communists.

Why continue to let Will Fritz have the last word on the last words of Lee Harvey Oswald?  That avenue is a half-century old and FAILED.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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