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HIJACKED TOPIC - Maybe Shelley & Lovelady didn't lie after all.


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11 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

Yes -- and FBI agent James Bookhout -- the source of your confirmation there -- agrees fully with Shelley and Lovelady -- but for a different reason.  Shelley and Lovelady were pushing a Grassy Knoll shooting.  Bookhout was trying to frame LHO.

See -- it is strictly impossible for Shelley and Lovelady to be in agreement with Bookhout, because Shelley and Lovelady NEVER MENTION LHO at the door of the TSDB there with their crowd.  There were many people standing at that door -- including Roy Truly and many others who testified for the WC.

Not one of them said LHO was standing there with them.

Only James Bookhout (roughly following Captain Will Fritz, Dallas FBI agent James Hosty, Dallas Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels and Dallas Postmaster James Humes) claims that LHO made this "confession."

Here's my opinion:  Bookhout is clearly lying.  Will Fritz is clearly lying.  James Hosty is clearly lying.  Forrest Sorrells is clearly lying.  James Humes is clearly lying.

Shelley-Lovelady are telling the truth, except that their TIMING is confused.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo


Paul, you are again trying to pull the thread outside the bounds of the premise. Please stop.

The 3 minute pause before Baker enters the TSBD, as testified to by Shelley and Lovelady, was the impetus behind creating this thread. It must remain.

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11 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

My problem with this is that Bugliosi accepts that Lee Harvey Oswald actually said those words.  Yet those words were not recorded at the time that Oswald was in custody, but WEEKS LATER, by the admission of Captain Will Fritz himself.  By that time, Fritz had plenty of time to coordinate these "notes" with the local conspirators.

I don't believe one single word that was forced into the mouth of LHO while he was under arrest.  LHO was framed -- not by the CIA -- but by Dallas Police Department rogues, working with General Walker and the Radical Right in Dallas.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

Please, let's not talk about the perps, whether it be the CIA or the Radical Right. That would serve only to confuse readers.

 

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On 1/5/2017 at 3:12 PM, Alistair Briggs said:

...If Fritz, with the local conspirators, had a free reign to (after the fact) 'force words' into the mouth of LHO, one would have to presume that the reasons for doing so would be to frame him, and thus they would have him saying more things that implicated him in the crime.

Yet, in the passage I quote from Bugliosi's book, not only does what Oswald say not implicate him in the crime, but it goes a long way to doing the exact polar opposite.

There are many other examples of just the same.

It seems odd to me that a 'conspirator' having the chance to implicate further the 'patsy' does not take the opportunity to do it more thoroughly (or indeed very much at all)...

Regards

Alistair,

It's a good question.  My response is that a person who spends a lifetime in True Crime would know that the very best lies are composed of 99% truth.  That makes it much, much harder to contradict.

Dallas Police Captain Will Fritz was an expert in True Crime.  Why would he concoct some far-fetched theory, when all he really had to do was to stitch together various Eye-witness accounts from the FACTS of the case to lead to hanging Lee Harvey Oswald.

The Dallas police had a rifle that could be traced to LHO, there on the 6th floor, with three bullet shells, and they had fragments of bullets from the JFK limo that kinda-sorta matched that rifle.

For most people, WHAT MORE DID THEY REALLY NEED?  As Dallas District Attorney Henry Wade said, "I've sent men to the electric chair on less evidence than this."

All Captain Will Fritz and his co-conspirators needed to do was to PREVENT OSWALD FROM TALKING, and then they could stick as close to the known Testimony (from affidavits) and they would have a PERFECT STORY.

They didn't have to INVENT anything at all -- nothing at all.

That said -- the claims of Will Fritz about the last words of LHO were forged together by WEEKS of discussion among the Dallas police and sheriff's office rogues, and honed to PERFECTION.

Think of it -- Will Fritz had LHO in virtual seclusion for 48 hours -- and interrogated him numerous times -- and yet when we read all the last words of LHO from the "notes" of Will Fritz we have at most THIRTY MINUTES of Questions and Answers.

Then, when we ask others who were allegedly there in the same interrogations -- namely, James Hosty, Forrest Sorrels and Harry Holmes -- we get THE VERY SAME THIRTY MINUTES OF QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS that we got from the "notes" of Will Fritz.

They match almost word for word.  This is the result of WEEKS of coordination.  How can any CTer continue to rely on Will Fritz as their source for what LHO allegedly said?

Yet at the same time, Alistair, we don't need to imagine any major Story-Telling skills of Will Fritz and his fellow conspirators -- only a desire to hang LHO by using stories already close to hand.

Remember, too, that Dallas DA Henry Wade was under heavy pressure from Dean Rusk, Nicolas Katzenbach and J. Edgar Hoover in Washington DC to back off of any Communist Plot theory of the JFK assassination.  So, the original story that the Dallas conspirators had was shot down on the very first day.

So, the best story they had was simply to stitch together a plausible scenario from all these Eye-witnesses -- which they obviously did. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
Holmes not Humes
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13 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Please, let's not talk about the perps, whether it be the CIA or the Radical Right. That would serve only to confuse readers.

OK.

--Paul

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27 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Paul, you are again trying to pull the thread outside the bounds of the premise. Please stop.

The 3 minute pause before Baker enters the TSBD, as testified to by Shelley and Lovelady, was the impetus behind creating this thread. It must remain.

Sandy,

I wasn't trying to pull the thread away.   Let's get back to it.   Do you still believe that Shelley and Lovelady were being CAREFULLY ACCURATE about their TIMING?  If so, why?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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Very interesting questions here.

If Oswald actually told Fritz and whoever else was present during his DPD interrogations that he was with or near or at least even in a position where he was able to "see" Shelley at the specific Houston Street entrance location during or right before the shooting, it does beg one to consider that Oswald was taking a very risky and hard to defend personal location position by throwing out this specific well known TSBD person's name in that specific location.

Oswald must have known that Shelley could be asked if Oswald's claim were true and if Oswald was lying about this, he would have known that Shelley could have blown his location story away.

Oswald didn't trip up much in his hours and hours of DPD interrogations ( remarkable under those stressful and exhausting conditions )  according to those who actually questioned him.. If he did with his noonish location claim, it would have been out of his reported interrogation demeanor.

Was Oswald told that Shelley was at the Houston Street entrance during the motorcade time before or during his interrogations? If not, Oswald brings up this fact on his own and one has to ask how he knew Shelley was where he claimed and was proven to be at that time.

Yes, Oswald may have seen Shelley at the Houston Street entrance before JFK's arrival, but it couldn't have been too long before JFK's motorcade passed.

And Oswald would have then had to run up 5 flights of stairs or take the elevator to do his alleged deed after he saw Shelley at the entrance. How much time would it have taken Oswald to get up to the 6th floor and then make his hidden perch with several stacked book containing boxes and get settled in to perform that amazingly fast and accurate pressure packed 3 shot feat?  All that doable in that time frame? Serious questions there.

But, Oswald's knowing exactly where Shelley was right before and during the shooting surely forces one to wonder how he knew this without being close enough to see this ... or told this by someone else before his interrogation. Which is very unlikely.

Shelley also states in his testimony that he was actually up on the sixth floor doing floor repair work in the morning hours before the shooting! Was he there until the 11:00 am hour? So, Oswald's supposed "snipers lair" was built up right after Shelley left the 6th floor to come down and have lunch?

Well someone was in that window according to street eyewitnesses Arnold Rowland, Howard Brennan and Carolyn Walther. But was it Oswald?

And Shelley being right on the same floor as the snipers lair right up until the 11:00 am hour ( in my mind ) sure makes him out to be a very suspicious person in the whole affair.

Edited by Joe Bauer
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"Alistair,

To summarize Vickie Adams again; when Vickie and Sandra FINALLY got to the 1st floor, it was LESS THAN 30 SECONDS before she saw Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. 

This can only be true if Vickie and Sandra dallied at the northern window near the stairs for several minutes (which Belin never asked about).  There was never any testimony about an alleged TWO MINUTES (90 + 30 seconds), so now Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimony make sense -- Vickie and Sandra spent from FIVE to EIGHT MINUTES looking out of the 4th floor northern window, near the stairs, gawking and gossiping about the JFK assassination.

There never was any confusion between TWO MINUTES with TEN MINUTES.   Belin's leading of the witness is the best explanation.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Paul

Your theory of Vickie Adams taking 8-10 minutes to make it from the 4th floor window to the 1st floor is completel derailed by this one simple excerpt from her WC testimony, which you continue to ignore, and which I will continue to remind you of, each and ever time you propose your 10 minute theory.

" Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
"

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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30 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Well someone was in that window according to street eyewitnesses Arnold Rowland, Howard Brennan and Carolyn Walther. But was it Oswald?

The man Arnold Rowland saw was said to be wearing jeans or dark colored pants. And when Dillard took his photograph upon seeing a rifle sticking out the eastmost window - he captured the image of a man wearing what appears to be a white T-shirt and looking down into the street below from the west end of the building.

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5 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

If we do indeed take it as fact that Vickie Adams sighting of Shelley/Lovelady was a WC fabrication, then we also have to take Bakers WC testimony as a fabrication also, surely...

Yes, that's right. And in fact we already know that Baker's testimony of the "encounter" changed from occurring on the 3rd or 4th floor to occurring on the 2nd floor instead. (Or is Baker just a scatterbrain?)

At this moment I have quite serious doubts that the [Victoria Adams] sighting of Shelley/Lovelady being a WC fabrication!

Well, either Victoria Adams testimony is wrong or Shelley and Lovelady's testimonies (the part about 3-minutes) are wrong. We can't have it both ways.

The goal of this thread was to discover inconsistencies that are created by accepting what Shelley and Lovelady testified to. You are doing just that! So that is great.

On the other hand, I knew from the start that the Victoria Adams and Officer Baker testimonies contradicted the Shelley and Lovelady testimonies. I said so in the first post. And I gave brief reasons to believe that the Adams and Baker testimonies should be the ones not to believe. So I'm not sure we should be spending time debating those two inconsistencies on this particular thread. They probably deserve their own threads.

But let me respond to what you have written here.

I can see the possible strength in the argument that Adams claimed the part of seeing Shelley/Lovelady was added by Leavelle in his statement on the 17th of February  - it was after all an individual line therein. But that isn't the case when it comes to her WC testimony - it's not just an individual line about the incident, it's not even just one question about it... it's mentioned numerous times throughout the WC testimony and naturally (imo) flows both before and after!

I disagree with the "natural flow" argument you are making here. I took Adams' WC testimony and highlighted in red the parts about seeing Shelley and Lovelady. There are four places where the encounter with Shelley and Lovelady is mentioned. In one place it's just a phrase.... part of a sentence. In two places it's just a few lines. Only in one place is it more detailed... 14 lines.

In three of the four places, if you remove the text, the remaining testimony flows the same as before. This means that the text could have been inserted and the flow not changed. The same is also true of the fourth, detailed place... with one exception: You also need to change a word, "Yes" to the word, "No."

If for example one was to take out the parts in regards to Shelley/Lovelady from the WC testimony of Vickie Adams then they have to remove so much that the line of questioning does not flow - in fact it wouldn't make much sense.

I hate to have to contradict what you're saying Alistair, but it is simply not true. In my next post I will quote Adams' testimony, with the Shelley/Lovelady parts in red. Member can decide for themselves if it flows with the red sections removed.

I do appreciate your thinking on the subject and appreciate that you are working logically towards a conclusion of your theory - I'm not trying to prove you are mistaken just offering up some alternative views on the subject. ;)

Regards

P.S. I wonder what your thoughts (if any) are on the difference in questioning style between Mr Belin and Mr Ball?

P.P.S not sure what to say about what Robert just said about me ;) May be best to say nothing in response. lol

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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Below is the portion of Victoria Adams' WC testimony that mentions her supposed Shelley/Lovelady encounter. I have highlighted in red the four places where the encounter is mentioned. I maintain that you can remove these four sections and after doing so the remaining text will flow the same as before. (You can decide for yourself.) If true, this means that the text in red could have been added by a WC lawyer.
 

Miss ADAMS - A tree. and we heard a shot, and it was a pause, and then a second shot, and then a third shot.

It sounded like a firecracker or a cannon at a football game, it seemed as if it came from the right below rather than from the left above. Possibly because of the report. And after the third shot, following that, the third shot, I went to the back of the building down the back stairs, and encountered Bill Shelley and Bill Lovelady on the first floor on the way out to the Houston Street dock.

Mr. BELIN - When you say on the way out to the Houston Street dock, you mean now you were on the way out?

Miss ADAMS - While I was on the way out.

Mr. BELIN - Was anyone going along with you?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; Sandra Styles.

Mr. BELIN - Sometime after the third shot, and I don't want to get into the actual period of time yet, you went back into the stockroom which would be to the north of where your offices are located on the fourth floor, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; that's correct.

Mr. BELIN - When you got into the stockroom, where did you go?

Miss ADAMS - I went to the back stairs.

Mr. BELIN - Are there any other stairs that lead down from the fourth floor other than those back stairs in the rear of the stockroom?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Those stairs would be in the northwest comer of the building, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - You took those stairs. Were you walking or running as you went down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS - I was running. We were running.

Mr. BELIN - What kind of shoes did you have on?

Miss ADAMS - Three-inch heels.

Mr. BELIN - You had heels. Now, as you were running down the stairs, did you encounter anyone?

Miss ADAMS - Not during the actual running down the stairs; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN - After you left the Scott Foresman office and went into the stock-room, did you see anyone until you got to the stairs on the fourth floor other than the person you were with?

Miss ADAMS - Outside of our office employees; no.

Mr. BELIN - Would these office employees that you might have seen, all be women?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then you got to the stairs and you started going down the stairs. You went from the fourth floor to the third floor?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct?

Mr. BELIN - Anyone on the stairs then?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Let me ask you this. As you got to the stairs on the fourth floor, did you notice whether or not the elevator was running?

Miss ADAMS - The elevator was not moving.

Mr. BELIN - How do you know it was not moving on some other floor?

Miss ADAMS - Because the cables move when the elevator is moved, and this is evidenced because of a wooden grate.

Mr. BELIN - By that you mean a wooden door with slats in it that you have to lift up to get on the elevator?

Miss ADAMS - Yes.

Mr. BELIN - Did you look to see if the elevator was moving?

Miss ADAMS - It was not; no, sir.

Mr. BELIN - It was not moving?

Miss ADAMS - No.

Mr. BELIN - Did you happen to see where the elevator might have been located?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - As you got to the third floor, did you take a look at the elevator again at all, or not, if you remember?

Miss ADAMS - I can't recall.

Mr. BELIN - As you got off the stairs on the third floor, did you see anyone on the third floor?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then you immediately went to the stairs going down from the third to the second?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - As you ran down the stairs, did you see anyone on the stairs?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - All right. You got down to the second floor. Did you see anyone by the second floor?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you immediately turn and run and keep on running down the stairs towards the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - Yes.

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the bottom of the first floor, did you see anyone there as you entered the first floor from the stairway?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. No sir.

Mr. BELIN - Who did you see?

Miss ADAMS - Mr. Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BELIN - Where did you see them on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - Well, this is the stairs, and this is the Houston Street dock that I went out. They were approximately in this position here, so I don't know how you would describe that.

Mr. BELIN - You are looking now at a first floor plan or diagram of the Texas School Book Depository, and you have pointed to a position where you encountered Bill Lovelady and Mr. Bill Shelley?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - It would be slightly east of the front of the east elevator, and probably as far south as the length of the elevator, is that correct?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - I have a document here called Commission's Exhibit No. 496, which includes a diagram of the first floor, and there is a No. 7 and a circle on it, and I have pointed to a place marked No. 7 on the diagram. Is that correct?

Miss ADAMS - That is approximate.

Mr. BELIN - Between the time you got off the stairs and the time you got to this point when you say you encountered them, which was somewhat to the south and a little bit east of the front of the east elevator, did you see any other employees there?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Any other people prior to the time you saw them?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Now when you were running down the stairs on your trip down the stairs, did you hear anyone using the Stairs?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you hear anyone calling for an elevator?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see the foreman, Roy Truly? Did you see the superintendent of the warehouse, Roy S. Truly?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; I did not.

Mr. BELIN - What about any motorcycle police officers?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Now what did you do after you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?

Miss ADAMS - I said I believed the President was shot.

Mr. BELIN - Do you remember what they said?

Miss ADAMS - Nothing.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS - I proceeded out to the Houston Street dock.

Mr. BELIN - That would be on this same diagram? It is marked Houston Street dock, and you went through what would be the north door, which is towards the rear of the first floor, is that correct?

And down some stairs towards the rear of the dock?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - Where did you go from there?

Miss ADAMS - I proceeded--which way is east and west?

Mr. BELIN - East is here. East is towards Houston, and west is towards the railroad tracks. You went east or west? Towards the railroad tracks or towards Houston Street?

Miss ADAMS - I went west towards the tracks.

Mr. BELIN - How far west did you go?

Miss ADAMS - I went approximately 2 yards within the tracks and there was an officer standing there, and he said, "Get back to the building." And I said, "But I work here."

And he said, "That is tough, get back." I said, "Well, was the President shot?" And he said, "I don't know. Go back." And I said, "All right."

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS - I went back, only I went southwest.

Mr. BELIN - Well, did you come back by way of the street, or did you come back the same entrance you went out?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

Mr. BELIN - You went back in through the front entrance, through the front of the building?

Miss ADAMS - Well, I didn't go back in right away.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do then? There is a street that would be a continuation of Elm Street that goes in front of the building, and Elm Street itself angles into the freeway. Did you go back either of those streets?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir. I went by the one directly in front of the building.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got there?

Miss ADAMS - When I got there, I happened to look around and noticed several of the employees, and I noticed Joe Molina, for one, was standing in front of the building, and also Avery Davis, who works with me, and I said, "What do you think has happened?"

And she said, "I don't know."

And I said, "I want to find out." I think the President is shot.

There was a motorcycle that was parked on the corner of Houston and Elm directly in front of the east end of the building, and I paused-there to listen to the report on the police radio, and they said that shots had been fired which apparently came either from the second floor or the fourth floor window, and so I panicked, as I was at the only open window on the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN - Did they say second floor or second floor from the top?

Miss ADAMS - It said second floor. So then I decided maybe I had better go back into the building, and going up the stairs---

Mr. BELIN - Now at this time when you went back into the building, were there any policemen standing in front of the building keeping people out?

Miss ADAMS - There was an officer on the stairs itself, and he was prohibiting people from entering the building, that is correct. But I told him I worked there.

Mr. BELIN - Did he let you come back in?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do ?

Miss ADAMS - Following that, I pushed the button for the passenger elevator, but the power had been cut off on the elevator, so I took the stairs to the second floor.

Mr. BELIN - You then went all the way back to the northwest corner of the building and took the same set of stairs you had previously taken to come down, or did you take the stairs by the passenger elevator?

Miss ADAMS - By the passenger elevator.

Mr. BELIN - Do those stairs go above floor 2?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do when you got to the second floor?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the Texas School Book Depository office and just listened for a few minutes to the people that were congregating there, and decided there wasn't anything interesting going on, and went out and walked around the hall to the freight elevator meaning the one on the northwest corner.

Mr. BELIN - Would it have been the west or the east? The one nearest the stairs or the other one?

Miss ADAMS - Yes; the one nearest the stairs.

Mr. BELIN - Then what did you do?

Miss ADAMS - I went into the elevator which was stopped on the second floor, with two men who were dressed in suit and hats, and I assumed they were plainclothesmen.

Mr. BELIN - What did you do then?

Miss ADAMS - I tried to get the elevator to go to the fourth floor, but it wasn't operating, so the gentlemen lifted the elevator gate and we went out and ran up the stairs to the fourth floor.

Mr. BELIN - Then you went back to the Scott Foresman Company offices?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir.

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.

Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.

Mr. BELIN - Is there any particular reason why you make this estimation?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, sir; going down the stairs toward the back, I was running. I ran to the railroad tracks. I moved quickly to the front of the building, paused briefly to talk to someone, listened only to the report of the windows from which the shot supposedly was fired, and returned to the building.

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?

Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?

Miss ADAMS - I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.

Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?

Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

Mr. BELIN - As I understand your testimony previously, you saw neither Roy Truly nor any motorcycle police officer at any time?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - You heard no one else running down the stairs?

Miss ADAMS - Correct.

Mr. BELIN - When you got to the first floor did you immediately proceed to this point where you say you encountered Mr. Shelley and Mr. Lovelady?

Well, you showed me on a diagram of the first floor that there was a place which was south and somewhat east of the front part of the east elevator that you encountered Truly and Lovelady?

Miss ADAMS - I saw them there.

Mr. BELIN - I mean; you saw them?

Miss ADAMS - Yes.

Mr. BELIN - Would that have been a matter of seconds after you got to the bottom of the first floor?

Miss ADAMS - Definitely.

Mr. BELIN - Less than 30 seconds?

Miss ADAMS - Yes.

Mr. BELIN - Do you know, or did you know Lee Harvey Oswald either by sight or by name?

Miss ADAMS - I didn't know Lee Harvey Oswald, per se. I didn't know his name. I recognized him after I saw him on television, as having been with some men, but I had no dealing with him.

Mr. BELIN - By that, you mean having been employed with some men by the Texas School Book Depository?

Miss ADAMS - That's correct.

Mr. BELIN - During the trip down the stairs on the way down did you ever encounter Lee Harvey Oswald?

Miss ADAMS - No, sir.

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3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Sandy,

I wasn't trying to pull the thread away.   Let's get back to it.   Do you still believe that Shelley and Lovelady were being CAREFULLY ACCURATE about their TIMING?  If so, why?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo


I believe that Shelley's and Lovelady's timings were approximate. When added up they equal 7 minutes. Compare that to the 10-minute total estimate in the Shelley interview. Those two numbers -- 7 and 10 -- compare favorably, considering they are approximate.

Victoria Adams arrived at the bottom of the stairs roughly 1.5 minutes after the shooting. Alistair says 2 minutes. Fine... those two approximations are in the same, reasonable, ballpark.

Given those numbers, Victoria Adam's could not have seen Shelley and Lovelady at the bottom of the stairs,

Even at the extremes, the timing still doesn't work out. Let's say the Shelley/Lovelady excursion was 5 minutes rather than the 7 to 10 minutes. And that Victoria's trip down the stairs was 3 minutes instead of 1.5 to 2 minutes. There is still a 2 minute difference and so Victoria's encounter with Shelley/Lovelady is still impossible.

And it's not just the timing, Paul. There are many things that make Victoria Adams' WC testimony suspect. I wish you would read about it.

Last but not least, suppose that Victoria Adams' testimony is correct. That would mean that Shelley's and Lovelady's testimonies are at least partial fabrications. The fact that they both said that it was 3 minutes from the shooting to the time they left the TSBD stairs kills any hope of their excursion to the west doorway being quick enough that Victoria could have seen them there.

To have any hope of the encounter happening, that Shelley/Lovelady 3-minute delay would have to shrink down to nothing! Okay, so let's assume it was 0 seconds and not 3 minutes. How on earth could they have thought it was 3 minutes instead of 0 seconds? BOTH of them? With the reminder that Gloria Calvery couldn't have gotten there in such a short period of time?

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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6 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Ray,

I thought that Oswald went back inside after being out front with Shelley. Because, for example, I recall a story of Oswald telling someone where the telephone was.

Yes,I believe he did. When I said above that Oswald couldn't have been with Shelley after the shooting, I meant after Shelley had visited the rail yards with Lovely. (I must be more careful with how I word things)

As Shelley said they got back to the TSBD after ten minutes, how could Adams have seen them at the elevator on the first floor? She certainly didn't take ten minutes to get down the stairs.

This barrel of fish smells rotten.

 

Sorry, Sandy, just seen your post above.

Edited by Ray Mitcham
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Ooft, lots of comments to get through (the beauty of time difference me thinks). I will start by responding to Paul first.

 

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

I disagree with your conclusion on grounds of observation alone.  Let's review just this first part.  Here is how it breaks down, being very literal about it:

(1) Between the time the shots were fired and the time Vickie and Sandra left the 4th floor south window to EVEN START toward the 4th floor north window, near the stairs, was APPROXIMATELY 30 SECONDS.

(2) To actually GET TO the north window, near the stairs, Vickie REFUSED TO ESTIMATE.

(3) Belin DOES NOT ASK Vickie how long Vicke and Sandra STAYED at the northern window, near the stairs, looking down.

(4) To get from the northern TSBD stairs at the 4th floor down to the 1st floor would take no longer than ONE MINUTE.

(5) Belin asks Vickie to confirm that it was about ONE MINUTE when she left the northern window, near the stairs, to the 1st floor, and she does confirm it.

I think that many readings will leave out steps #2 and #3 above, and will just add up steps #1 and #4, and call it 90 seconds.  That's the error that has fed the myth for a half-century.

All we need to do is recognize that Belin was leading the witness -- obliterating steps #2 and #3.  Why?  Probably only to hurry the case along against LHO, and no other reason.  It wasn't even that clearly thought out.

If we allow 30 SECONDS for step #2, and then allow EIGHT FULL MINUTES for step #3, then we can match Bill Shelley's timetable, namely, that he and Billy Lovelady walked from the front of the TSBD to the Grassy Knoll parking lot, and looked around for awhile, and then walked back to the western entrance of the TSBD in about TEN MINUTES.

It is sloppy TIMING, but it is still within the realm of honesty -- given only the Witness Leading by Mr. Belin.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Paul with the absolute upmost of respect, you seem to be adding something in there about South window and North window after saying you are being literal about it, yet in Adams testimony there is no use of the words South or North window, the only thing mentioned is 'the' window..

Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was between the time the shots were fired and the time you left the window to start toward the stairway?
Miss ADAMS - Between 15 and 30 seconds, estimated, approximately.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it was, or do you think it took you to get from the window to the top of the fourth floor stairs?
Miss ADAMS - I don't think I can answer that question accurately, because the time approximation, without a stopwatch, would be difficult.
Mr. BELIN - How long do you think it took you. to get from the window to the bottom of the stairs on the first floor?
Miss ADAMS - I would say no longer than a minute at the most.
Mr. BELIN - So you think that from the time you left the window on the fourth floor until the time you got to the stairs at the bottom of the first floor, was approximately 1 minute?
Miss ADAMS - Yes, approximately.

If we are to be very literal about it then, then we have to say that 'the window' mentioned 4 times is the same window. Consider the following then;

A. Time of shots.
B. Left Window.
C. Reached top of stairs on 4th floor
D. Reached bottom of stairs on 1st floor.

The questions being asked by Belin are 1) How long between A and B? A) 15-30 seconds; 2) How long between B and C? A)I wouldn't like to say; 3) Ok, how long between B and D? A) about a minute; 4) For clarity, between B and D was about a minute? A) yes.

Let's for a second assume what you are positing is correct and that we should allow 30 seconds for step 2 and then allow 8 minutes for step 3 and the reason we should allow that is that we can then match Bill Shelley's timetable (as posited by Sandy in the first post) of 10 minutes. There is one major issue with that - in Adams testimony we find the following;

Mr. BELIN - Now trying to reconstruct your actions insofar as the time sequence, which we haven't done, what is your best estimate of the time between the time the shots were fired and the time you got back to the building? How much time elapsed? If you have any estimate. Maybe you don't have one.
Miss ADAMS - I would estimate not more than 5 minutes elapsed.

6 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

To summarize Vickie Adams again; when Vickie and Sandra FINALLY got to the 1st floor, it was LESS THAN 30 SECONDS before she saw Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady. 

This can only be true if Vickie and Sandra dallied at the northern window near the stairs for several minutes (which Belin never asked about).  There was never any testimony about an alleged TWO MINUTES (90 + 30 seconds), so now Shelley's and Lovelady's WC testimony make sense -- Vickie and Sandra spent from FIVE to EIGHT MINUTES looking out of the 4th floor northern window, near the stairs, gawking and gossiping about the JFK assassination.

There never was any confusion between TWO MINUTES with TEN MINUTES.   Belin's leading of the witness is the best explanation.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Again you have drawn an inference from Adams testimony that something has been left out so that you can add more time in to it so it fits with the posited time of Shelley/Lovelady getting to the back and yet the time you have added ("5 to 8 minutes looking out of the 4th floor Northern window") flys in the face of Adams saying that from the time of the shots until getting back to the building was about 5 minutes.

I won't address the points you make in your other post about the (alleged) words of LHO while being interrogated by Fritz because I don't think that is overly pertinent (at the moment at least) to the discussion in hand. (But I have read it and found in interesting and of note ;) )

Regards.

 

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Sandy,

I am unable to directly quote some of your responses to me as you answered them directly in my quote, so instead I will link to it for clarity.

First: This comment (Sandy's responses in blue)

I know, I know. ;) I did somewhat qualify it by the use of the word 'if'. If you think it is an impossibility that is fine with me - I don't necessarily disagree with you on that point. ;) But perhaps such postulating could be wise after all if it is indeed an impossibility then there is, and can be, no falsifiability! ;)

Second: This comment (Sandy's responses in blue)

You say, and I quote " Well, either Victoria Adams testimony is wrong or Shelley and Lovelady's testimonies (the part about 3-minutes) are wrong. We can't have it both ways. " and I agree that we can't have it both ways - in an ideal world all the testimony would (to some reconciable degree at least) tie in with each other. If we take your posited timeline of Shelley/Lovelady as being accurate then Adams (and by extension Baker) is wrong, that does go on the assumption that your posited timeline of Shelley/Lovelady IS accurate!

You also say, and I quote, " So I'm not sure we should be spending time debating those two inconsistencies on this particular thread. They probably deserve their own threads. "

I disagree! Debating the inconsistences between Adams/Baker and Shelley/Lovelady is very important to the matter at hand. If we look at it as (fundamentally) the testimonies of Adams & Baker (AB) are in sync, and (fundamentally) the testimonies of Shelley & Lovelady (SL) are in sync, then in overly simple terms we are left with the following 4 possibilities;

1. Both AB & SL are correct
2. AB is correct & SL is incorrect
3. AB is incorrect & SL is correct
4. Both AB & SL are incorrect

What 'muddies the water' somewhat is that you have (in your original post) posited a timeline from your reading of the testimony of both Shelley and Lovelady and (in a later comment) have asked the question of how viable it is, yet at the same time you asked that question you asked for two other things to be taken as read 1) Assume that Shelley and Lovelady's statements and testimonies are essentially correct and 2) If their testimonies significantly contradict the testimonies of others, the others are to be considered incorrect. Can you see the problem there?

How can the validity of something be tested if we are to consider anything that contradicts it as being incorrect to start with?

Anyroads, on the subject of the flow of the testimony being affected or not by the removal of mentions of Shelley/Lovelady, I will address that later on. You have your thoughts on the matter, and I have mine (and they differ from yours). That's ok with me. Don't worry about hating to contradict me ;) if you have another take on the matter to mine I welcome the discussion on it. :)

 

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21 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Only James Bookhout (roughly following Captain Will Fritz, Dallas FBI agent James Hosty, Dallas Secret Service agent Forrest Sorrels and Dallas Postmaster James Humes) claims that LHO made this "confession."

Here's my opinion:  Bookhout is clearly lying.  Will Fritz is clearly lying.  James Hosty is clearly lying.  Forrest Sorrells is clearly lying.  James Humes is clearly lying.

James Humes may just have been mistaken. After all, he was really busy over the assassination weekend, what with interviewing Oswald, making sure all the letters and parcels got delivered properly, and performing President Kennedy's autopsy.


 

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