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Obviously there's a healthy amount of skepticism about american Intelligence here.


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A substantial number of us believe Intelligence had a hand in the Assassination of JFK. I assume most people think we need intelligence organizations, or why would we be paying so much money for them?

So we have the intelligence agencies conclusively coming out today saying in pretty decisive terms that the Russians interfered in our election and hacked the DNC with the specific purpose of trying to ensure a Trump victory, with the obligatory caveat that there is no conclusive evidence that they threw the election to Trump.( Of course,how could there be?)

How serious is this? How serious is it that the President Elect has been discounting this when he benefited (though granted it's not conclusive it's a game changer) from this insidious influence?
 
Or do you feel this is JFK history repeating itself with Trump?
If you still believe it's all BS and they're spying on each other all the time anyway.. And you don't trust the CIA or your intelligence agencies, or abstractly, the National Security State.What is they're aim in starting up another Cold War?  What's their overall plan?
Edited by Kirk Gallaway
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I am thinking that maybe, just maybe, Trump is going to begin the 1963 counter coup. Perhaps it is a knee jerk reaction to the despair I was feeling a month ago. What keeps coming to mind is Trumps willingness and gaul to step-up and position Rafael Cruz, in New Orleans, in 1963, next to Oswald during his sheep-dipping. I consider Eisenhowers warning, Truman's letter bemoaning the creation of the CIA one month after JFK was killed, and Kennedy's warning of April of 1961 at the ANPA. Kennedy knew he needed to smash the CIA; It was life or death for himself, the country, and the world. He made it clear in the televised debate with Nixon that the country and the world was facing another monumental battle against slavery. Is it possible that Trump has listened to this voice from the past and is ready to fix it? Am I delusional?

Edited by Michael Clark
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Hi Michael, Well I guess we can't know for sure about anything until he gets into office.I think the question is how sinister are our present day intelligence agencies? We know they have no qualms about spying on us, if they feel like it. But they have a much greater capacity to spy on us than they ever did in the 60's. Do you believe they have the conclusive info about the Russians they say they have? If not, what do you think their goals are?

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If it's true that they have this information, then I think they have had it for a long time. I don't understand the timing. The best guess I can make is that they are trying to establish themselves as the taskmasters of Trump, trying to own him, trying to establish a pattern where they can make him react to them; kind of like how they did with JFK during the Bay Of Pigs. It reminds me of Monty Pythons "The Holy Grail" during the scene with Trojan Bunny Rabbit. 

After the rabbit is in the castle, Arthur asks: 

-King Arthur: What happens now? 
-Sir Bedevere: Well, now, uh, Launcelot, Galahad, and I, uh, wait until nightfall, and then leap out of the rabbit, taking the French, uh, by surprise. Not only by surprise, but totally unarmed! 
-Arthur: Who leaps out? 
-Bedevere: U-- u-- uh, Launcelot, Galahad, and I. Uh, leap out of the rabbit, uh, and uh... 
-Arthur: Ohh... (he and Lancelot slowly put their hands to their heads at the realization that they messed up) 
-Bedevere: Oh. Um, l-- look, i-- i-- if we built this large wooden badger-- 
(twang of a catapult is heard from the French castle and the Trojan Rabbit comes flying towards where the knights are hiding) 
-Arthur: Run away! 

So The CIA in 61' tried to make JFK accede to turning the invasion into an American invasion, and he didn't do it.

It looks like the CIA now is trying to make Trump jump and accept their appraisal that Putin and Russia must continue to be regarded as mortal enemies; that is what we are hearing from every quarter. How am I to know? I just know that I am tired of the national security state, the perpetual nuclear threat and war in general. Was Russia dangerous for so long because it was Cummunist? Shouldn't that threat be downgraded now that it is not? Why is it not being downgraded? NATO seeems to be unnecessarily antagonistic toward Russia and it seems to be moving beyond its intended purpose. 

If Trump is moving to a trans-national Oligarchic world power structure, then JFK will have been right and we will be slaves. If he is indeed intending to smash the Intelligence community's grasp on power, deescalate the traditional tensions between Russia and the US, and deflate the MIC based economy in favor of other endeavors (wall building? Buggy whips? ;) IDK) then there might be some hope. It's my firm belief that if he is assassinated, we will not see the people cower like sheep as they did in '63. Regardless of the futility of resistance to today's weapons systems, I think the people would come out in arms, and who knows where that will lead.
 

 

Edited by Michael Clark
Wrong year for BOPI
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I hear you about your fears about the National Security State. I can tell you the threat has been downgraded because it was pretty touch and go for a  few years when I was young.

As far as "the MIC based economy". Of course you know Trump is planning a big step up in military spending and boosting our nuclear arms capability so they're already pretty much getting their way.. Of all Trump's plans, that is probably one of the biggest slam dunks, because the Republicans control both houses and there is a considerable number of right wingers now in Congress who think that  almost the only legitimate role of government is defending the Nation State.

 

 

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Obviously there needs to be healthy skepticism of American intelligence.

However, to understand geopolitics today one must look at Russia Intelligence and its long term goal to render America asunder of which its hacking of the DNC and its influencing the presidential election and six Congressional races were only parts of its well-thought-out strategy. This is where the focus should be.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/01/putins-real-long-game-214589

Edited by Douglas Caddy
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I think Trump wants to be a hero. Talking about an escalation of the nuke race could get that issue on the table internationally. If that can be done it could end-up as an historic draw-down, making him a hero. He has spoken about an increase in Naval spending and I think that can keep him safe. 

Regarding the election: I follow an academic excercise in finding the truth which I think I learned from reading Jim Garrison in 1993 which was the last time I delved into this matter until a few months ago. I believe he said.... "Assume you are being lied to, observe what actually happens, identify who benefits and see if connecting those dots makes sense".

So following that academic excercise, I am observing what is, to me, the most overwhelming agreement on a political issue that I have ever seen, the election hacking. I am in the process of moving through the next steps so that analysis is incomplete. But, projecting a bit, and repeating what I stated earlier, it is pointing to perpetual hostility with Russia and forcing Trump to sign on to it.

What I have not seen in the media, but I did see it on election night, is all of those districts throughout the upper Midwest that gave 3rd party candidates (Johnson) historic numbers of 3-5%. I don't understand why credit or blame is not being properly assigned to those voters. Perhaps it is because it is too difficult to tell where those votes would have gone. I have my opinion on that but I'll keep it to myself.

In the end, I think, Trump is not right wing, nor a conservative. He is centrist and maybe a populist. 

It looks like he is taking on the CIA up front. The CIA has everyone in fear of what he is doing. And, perhaps he may be able to restore an order and sense of security that we have long since forgotten. 

Believe me, these words would not have come from me three weeks ago, not by a long shot. I guess I find this overwhelming consensus on Russia frightening. I've never seen such a censensus in the absence of a Pearl Harbor or 9-11. 

Perhaps Trump is getting the jump on this problem whereas JFK waited too long.

Edited by Michael Clark
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Doesn't it seem like the CIA is now almost considered a 4th branch of government? It's not supposed to be that way. It is supposed to be a tool for the Executive Branch. Am I wrong?

Trumans letter, with an interesting date of 12-22-63...

http://www.maebrussell.com/Prouty/Harry Truman's CIA article.html

Edited by Michael Clark
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28 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Doesn't it seem like the CIA is now almost considered a 4th branch of government? It's not supposed to be that way. It is supposed to be a tool for the Executive Branch. Am I wrong?

Trumans letter, with an interesting date of 12-22-63...

http://www.maebrussell.com/Prouty/Harry Truman's CIA article.html

We seem to forget that CIA came from OSS, which was basically a Nazi-run environment, shepherded by Allan Dulles.  Its objective has always been to control the govt.  It has never even pretended to be under the President.  In fact, with JFK, the BOP was their test for him -- he was supposed to do what they told him to.  He did not, and disaster followed, and JFK was so outraged that he pledged to splinter CIA into 1000 pieces.  Nothing has changed.  Trump is facing his own test -- the "Russia hacking" scandal -- will it be his BOP? 

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Michael Clark said, "I think Trump wants to be a hero."

I hope not.  That would be dangerous, I agree.  I hope he continues to be a pragmatic businessman and figures out ways to get things done.  Otherwise, disaster will follow...

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Trump  only finds the Russians endearing for meddling  in our elections to promote his election. There will be a lot of heightened rhetoric and maybe sanctions against the Russians for meddling, and in mind, possibly throwing the election. But all the while, at first  almost invisibly ,Trump will have no problem brokering deals with Putin that open Russia to American corporations. Because of this, Can I say for sure that there will be no attempt on Trump's life? This is America, anybody can get the means to blow anybody away. But  there will be no attempt by the "Deep State" on his life. Why?, because opening Russia is a great economic opportunity for them. They don't just make money through selling arms and weapons systems! Whatever sense of indignation some of them may temporarily feel as Americans, can be rationalized away. They're multi national in scope, they'll leave the outrage to saps like us. Peace will reign again, and those who were worried at the prospect of reopening the Cold War will be appeased. 

The National Security State and the MIC will be further thrilled as Trump boosts Defense spending and  our nuclear capacity.This was not due to some insidious plot they instigated but directly the result  of a electing a President who is pro defense. Is Trump boosting our nuclear  capacity really going to make us any safer? Is there really that big a nuclear threat in the world with MAD?  It's a good bet Trump wants to align  with Putin against his perceived threat of China.

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Has any new hacking info appeared since the original DNC hacks? I don't think so - yet, when the release of info that Putin was helping Trump get elected could have hurt his election chances, there was virtual silence from the media and the intelligence services. During the debates, Hillary was clear that the hacks were designed to hurt her, yet that got no traction. Now that Trump is assured as the new POTUS the word is that Russia definitely hacked the election for Trump. If the intelligence services were against Trump they would have come out with this before the election.

Like the Kennedy assassination, it isn't the intelligence community making the decision, it's those who intelligence answers to - and I don't mean Barack Obama... Do they want Trump in general, or just his intentions to once again escalate the military? Why bring the hacking up now unless they simply want to kindle Cold War II which was so profitable without the death count of the Iraq War? Trump, on the other hand, wants to drop sanctions and do direct business with his sponsor Putin. Isn't it now Trump-Putin v. US intelligence?

Does Trump owe money to China? Does he think that igniting a cold war with China will allow the US to refuse to repay its debt? Is he trying to create a new enemy to take the heat off Putin?

With the full knowledge that Russian did in fact hack this election and that their hacking certainly hurt Hillary, and her dramatic win in the popular vote, why is no one questioning Trump's "victory" in a 'tampered with' election? Imagine the Republican reaction if Russia's hacking favored Hillary. What are the Dems doing right now? Once again, "The Powers That Be" have decided who Trump will be President.

Bottom line, Trump is only interested in making money for Trump. This POTUS gig is for his ego, and his wallet - nothing else.

If Trump does what the real powers want, they will allow him to indulge his greed. If Trump doesn't follow orders (he won't!) the Republican Congress will impeach him, and the party will install a Cheney-like VP to keep bible-thumper Pence on track.

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26 minutes ago, Tom Neal said:

Has any new hacking info appeared since the original DNC hacks? I don't think so - yet, when the release of info that Putin was helping Trump get elected could have hurt his election chances, there was virtual silence from the media and the intelligence services. During the debates, Hillary was clear that the hacks were designed to hurt her, yet that got no traction. Now that Trump is assured .........

........If Trump does what the real powers want, they will allow him to indulge his greed. If Trump doesn't follow orders (he won't!) the Republican Congress will impeach him, and the party will install a Cheney-like VP to keep bible-thumper Pence on track.

I have been mulling this around myself. You have good questions; I think they sound similar to mine above (go figure ;))

The Bay of Pigs example has already been mentioned. Another example of this pattern of behavior is old, but instructive and relevant to this forum. It is John Newmans WW3 virus, attributed to James Angleton. I am surprised that it is so infrequently invoked in this forum. In Short, Oswalds activities and alleged activities were buried such that they would not arise until 11-22-63, after the assassination. Once LHO was killed, and there would be no trial, a cover up was necessary to hide the massive intelligence and law enforcement failure, as well as WW3.

The Russian Hacking Virus was intended to force Trump to cave into the intelligence community, and Democrats as well as the media are partners in the plan.

It is unavoidable that I sound like a Trump apologist or supporter. I am not. I am, however interested in seeing this fourth branch of invisible government dismantled and it just may happen.

Edited by Michael Clark
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8 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I am, however interested in seeing this fourth branch of invisible government dismantled and it just may happen.

Michael,

Thanks for your response, and I SINCERELY hope you are correct. Nothing would give me greater pleasure that to be dead wrong, but I foresee another victory for the "invisible gov't." As controlled by the owners as the media was in the JFK era, since Reagan forced them to become entertainment and propaganda driven only, our sole hope is the internet. Trump's rednecks are not online, and would only go to Fox News sites if they were. The gov't is elected by the masses who *choose* ignorance over facts. Until the other half of the voters acquire some knowledge of how things *actually* are done we have no hope of changing the current system.

Greed runs the U$A, and about half of the voters are OK with it as they too are addicted to money.

Bernie sat down with Wisconsin voters post election and asked why they voted for Trump. They believe that "maybe" Trump will bring bank jobs to America. Right. What about every one of Trump's companies that use only overseas labor? Not going to happen. As dishonest as the average politician's campaign promises are, with Trump they ain't seen nothing yet! They will eventually realize they have been had, but will continue to make the same mistake as their ignorance makes them gullible.

Trump is not a business man, he's a con-man. He's made, and lost, his fortune by screwing over the competition and not paying his debts. He won't fare well doing this to China for example, as we will continue to need their money. His notion that "we just won't pay them" what we owe is born from a lifetime of doing just that in his business dealings. I predict his impeachment, but that is far from a happy ending.

With Hillary we would have had a liberal Supreme Court and the power to make changes that are desperately needed. With a Republican president we will have a Republican Supreme Court for many years to come who will exacerbate the current already unacceptable situation. With control of the WH, the Supreme Court AND Congress what possible change 'for the better' could come from this administration?

PLEASE convince me I'm wrong - - I need *some* hope...

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