Bizarre timing reveals the fraudulent addition of the 2nd floor encounter to Oswald interrogation reports.

[Sandy Larsen]

It is my belief that the 2nd floor encounter between Baker and Oswald never occurred. I will show here how two, and only two, interrogation reports were changed to indicate the encounter did occur. I will show how those changes are revealed by how they ruin the timing of Oswald's lunch. Finally, I will show how the remaining interrogation reports either contradict the 2nd-floor encounter story, or don't mention it at all. (All of this IMO, of course.)

Two Interrogation Reports Were Altered

The James Bookhout Report

Let's examine two FBI reports on one of Oswald's interrogations.

Here is the one reported by two FBI agents, James Hosty and James Bookhout:

OSWALD stated that he went to lunch at approximately noon and he claimed he ate his lunch on the first floor in the lunch room; however he went to the second floor where the Coca–Cola machine was located and obtained a bottle of Coca–Cola for his lunch. OSWALD claimed to be on the first floor when President JOHN F. KENNEDY passed this building. … he then went home by bus and changed his clothes.

Note that in this report there is NO mention of the Baker/Oswald 2nd floor encounter. Oswald said he ate lunch at about noon in the first-floor lunchroom. The way this is written, to me it sounds like Oswald interrupted his lunch to go get a coke from the 2nd floor. But he may have gotten the coke first and then gone to lunch.

Oswald said he was on the first floor during the shooting.

Now, let's look at the report written by James Bookhout alone.

"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home."

This account includes the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter. In this account, Baker stops Oswald just after he had bought his coke on the 2nd floor. So this is after the shooting took place. Oswald then goes down to the first floor and has lunch. After that he goes outside and stands around for several minutes.

So this account has Oswald eating lunch after the shooting. This doesn't make sense. For one thing, it contradicts the other FBI report that I quoted above. For another, in another interrogation session Oswald notes that he saw two black fellows while he ate lunch, and it is known that he was right about them being there during lunchtime, which was before the shooting. (I don't recall the details.)

So the timing of this report is screwy. Lets see what happens if we remove just the 2nd floor encounter which, remember, was not in the other report. (BTW, I believe that these two reports are of the same interrogation session.)

Here's what I remove, two segments of text:

"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home."

Let's read what remains:

"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home."

Notice how the text still flows properly after deleting the two segments. This report now reads nearly the same as the other FBI report. The timing is no longer screwy as it now allows for Oswald having his lunch before the shooting, even right around noon.

It is my belief that the text regarding the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter was added later. Maybe by Bookhout himself. Maybe by someone else.

The William Fritz Report

First let's look at Captain Fritz's handwritten notes:

 

See the top of the right-hand column. I will paraphrase the pertinent part here:

"Oswald claimed he was getting a coke in the 2nd floor lunchroom when the officer came in [and the encounter occurred]. He then went to the 1st floor and had lunch. He then went outside in front where Bill Shelley was."

This report also has the timing wrong... Oswald having lunch after the shooting.

Note the location on the handwritten report of the text reporting the 2nd floor encounter. It reads "claims 2nd floor coke when off[icer] came in." That text could have easily been added later, as there was plenty of space for it.

Again, when the 2nd floor encounter text is remove, the screwy timing disappears. The text then allows Oswald to have his lunch before the shooting.

It is my belief that the text regarding the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter was added later.

Fritz's typed report reflects the change identified here. If the two-sentence change is removed, the text that remains flows smoothly.

Other Interrogation Reports Were Not Altered

Reports that Contradict the 2nd Floor Encounter

Report by H.D. Holmes, December 17, 1963

"Before he could finish whatever he was doing, he stated, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he went down stairs, a policeman questioned him as to his identification and his boss stated that "he is one of our employees" whereupon the policeman had him step aside momentarily. Following this, he simply walked out the front door of the building."

This report has the encounter occurring "downstairs." Holmes's WC testimony is more specific:

Mr. BELIN. By the way, where did this policeman stop him when he was coming down the stairs at the Book Depository on the day of the shooting?
Mr. HOLMES. He said it was in the vestibule.
Mr. BELIN. He said he was in the vestibule?
Mr. HOLMES. Or approaching the door to the vestibule. He was just coming, apparently, and I have never been in there myself. Apparently there is two sets of doors, and he had come out to this front part.
Mr. BELIN. Did he state it was on what floor?
Mr. HOLMES. First floor. The front entrance to the first floor.

So Holmes has the encounter occurring near the front door on the first floor.

 

Reports that Don't Mention the 2nd Floor Encounter

Report by Bookhout, November 25, 1963

"Oswald stated that on November 22, 1963, he had eaten lunch in the lunch room at the Texas School Book Depository, alone, but recalled possibly two Negro employees walking through the room during this period. He stated possibly one of these employees was called "Junior" and the other was short individual whose name he could not recall but whom he would be able to recognize. He stated that his lunch had consisted of a cheese sandwich and an apple which he had obtained at Mrs. Ruth Paine's residence in Irving, Texas, upon his leaving for work that morning."

Report by Thomas Kelley, November 23, 1963

"He said he ate his lunch with the colored boys who worked with him. He described one of them as "Junior," a colored boy, and the other was little short negro boy. He said his lunch consisted of cheese, fruit, and apples, and was the only package he had with him when he went to work."

Edited February 18, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Alistair Briggs]

Good stuff, Sandy, well thought out and well presented.

 

7 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Here's what I remove, two segments of text:

"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, at the time of the search of the Texas School Book Depository building by Dallas police officers, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine, at which time a police officer came into the room with pistol drawn and asked him if he worked there. MR. TRULY was present and verified that he was an employee and the police officer thereafter left the room and continued through the building. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home."

Let's read what remains:

"OSWALD stated that on November 22, 1963, he was on the second floor of said building, having just purchased a Coca–cola from the soft-drink machine. OSWALD stated that he took this Coke down to the first floor and stood around and had lunch in the employees’ lunch room. He thereafter went outside and stood around for five or ten minutes with foreman BILL SHELLEY, and thereafter went home."

Notice how the text still flows properly after deleting the two segments. This report now reads nearly the same as the other FBI report. The timing is no longer screwy as it now allows for Oswald having his lunch before the shooting, even right around noon.

It is my belief that the text regarding the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter was added later. Maybe by Bookhout himself. Maybe by someone else.

Ah, ok. Took me a couple of reads to grasp that there are two things there, my bad. On first read I was asking myself why the line 'at the time of the search...' had been removed (that line could just be synonymous with 'after the shots'), as it could have been left in and the part about the 'encounter' taken out and it would have still made sense, but then I realised that would have meant he had his lunch after that... the removal of the line 'at the time of the search...' allows for Oswald having his lunch before the shooting.

Ok I understand.

I reckon Sandy if you follow your thought through more you will be on to something and will be able to make a very interesting case.

I look forward to seeing what timeline you put on it (from the perspective of Oswald I presume?)

Regards

P.S. (one thought that just popped in to my head is that maybe Oswald was merely on a lunch break and just had a coke but didn't actually eat anything. lol. Of course the above 'reports' say 'ate lunch' or 'had lunch'. So scratch my first thought, Oswald must have had something to eat... where did that food come from? )

[Sandy Larsen]

47 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I reckon Sandy if you follow your thought through more you will be on to something and will be able to make a very interesting case.

I suspect that some of the fine folks over there on the ROKC forum must have already figured this stuff out. But I hadn't seen it mentioned (other than for the differences between the two FBI reports), so I thought I'd put it down in writing.

I look forward to seeing what timeline you put on it (from the perspective of Oswald I presume?)

I don't think there is much timing information available to draw much of a timeline. I can't remember seeing anything indicating that Oswald was outside during the shooting. There IS some testimony that Oswald went outside to see what was going on. For Prayer Man to be Oswald, Oswald had to have gotten out there awfully fast. I should have bookmarked the post where Chris showed what the timing of the Darnell/Couch films (and Baker) were relative to, I believe, the Zapruder frames. From that we could determine how quickly it was that Oswald had to have gotten out there in order to be Prayer Man in Couch/Darnell. (Or whatever films it is that show Baker and Prayer Man.)

Come to think of it, isn't there a film that shows Prayer Man out there before the shots take place? If so, it seems that that hurts the Prayer Man = Oswald hypothesis.

Regards

P.S. (one thought that just popped in to my head is that maybe Oswald was merely on a lunch break and just had a coke but didn't actually eat anything. lol. Of course the above 'reports' say 'ate lunch' or 'had lunch'. So scratch my first thought, Oswald must have had something to eat...

where did that food come from? )

Maybe from a long paper bag that wasn't long enough to fit a Carcano rife in?

 

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't think there is much timing information available to draw much of a timeline. I can't remember seeing anything indicating that Oswald was outside during the shooting. There IS some testimony that Oswald went outside to see what was going on. For Prayer Man to be Oswald, Oswald had to have gotten out there awfully fast. I should have bookmarked the post where Chris showed what the timing of the Darnell/Couch films (and Baker) were relative to, I believe, the Zapruder frames. From that we could determine how quickly it was that Oswald had to have gotten out there in order to be Prayer Man in Couch/Darnell. (Or whatever films it is that show Baker and Prayer Man.)

Come to think of it, isn't there a film that shows Prayer Man out there before the shots take place? If so, it seems that that hurts the Prayer Man = Oswald hypothesis.

Yep there is some testimony that Oswald went outside to see what was going on. The question is does that same testimony say that Oswald went out after hearing the shots, or went out to see the reason why others were out (ie before the shots). (or even if the testimony is correct in the first place. lol) I think it's 'after the shots' - but it wouldn't have taken that long really to get from, say, the domino room, to be in Prayer Man's position... the Couch/Darnell clip is approx. 30 seconds after the shots. Not sure about something showing Prayer Man there before the shots, but if there is, it might not hurt the Prayer Man = Oswald hypothesis if, and I repeat if, the reason of 'to see what was going on' was in reference to the 'motorcade' and not 'the shots'.

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Maybe from a long paper bag that wasn't long enough to fit a Carcano rife in?

lol there is that. lol

We do know that Frazier gave Oswald a lift home (to the Paine's) on Thursday after work and brought him back on the Friday morning. According to Frazier's testimony, on the Thursday when Oswald asked for a lift, Frazier, because of the deviation from normal, asked why and Oswald said 'curtain rods'. There is a chance of course that Frazier added that bit about 'curtain rods' - it merely moves the question on a step... if it was 'curtain rods' what happened to them... or if the only package Oswald brought in on the Friday was his lunch, and Frazier made up the bit about 'curtain rods', for what reason did Oswald go home (to the Paine's) on the Thursday?

There are a few plausible reasons that could answer that question. Follow it through and you, Sandy, will be able to build a very good case. (and even though I may disagree with it, I could still help you out with backing up your case)

Regards

[John Butler]

Sandy,

I keep coming back to Police Chief Jesse Curry's statement in which he said roughly "I never could place Oswald on the 6th floor with a rifle in his hand".

I think what you are presenting could be part of the reasoning for Curry to say something like that

Great work. 

Marion Baker is a suspicious character.  He left the motorcade to investigate pigeons flying off the roof of the TSBD.  He was never called to task for that. He left his duty station on his own initiative.  That's something you don't do in the military or a paramilitary organization such as the DPD.

The whole bit of the gun in the stomach of Oswald in the 2nd floor break room broken up by Roy Truly has always been a bit hard to swallow.

[Michael Walton]

Wasn't the parade running late?  I think I've read elsewhere (add links to this if you know where it is) but the parade was supposed to have arrived in Dealey by 12:15pm. So LHO's movements were hardly someone who thought to himself, "Wow, to make sure I succeed at this, I better stay up in my sniper's perch that I've lovingly built as early as I can because I have no idea what time he's arriving here."

But here he was, out front, eating his lunch, getting a bottle of pop.

[Alistair Briggs]

1 hour ago, Michael Walton said:

Wasn't the parade running late?  I think I've read elsewhere (add links to this if you know where it is) but the parade was supposed to have arrived in Dealey by 12:15pm. So LHO's movements were hardly someone who thought to himself, "Wow, to make sure I succeed at this, I better stay up in my sniper's perch that I've lovingly built as early as I can because I have no idea what time he's arriving here."

But here he was, out front, eating his lunch, getting a bottle of pop.

You are right, Michael, the parade was running late... the 12:15 though was the 'original' time meant for the arrival at the Trade Mart... 12:10 was the 'original' time meant for being in Dealy Plaza. The 'original' time for leaving Love Field was 11:30. (estimated 'original' journey time 38-45 minutes)

The change in time only occurred after Air Force One was 'late' in landing (didn't land until 11:39) and it took another approx. 15 minutes for the motorcade to leave.

 

[George Sawtelle]

Sandy

It´s almost impossible to find out what happened on 22 Nov 1963 reading the testimony of the witnesses. The Warren Commission lawyers changed the testimony. It´s part of the coverup.

About the only evidence that we can hang our hat on is the forensics. Much of it could not be changed by the lawyers simply because they didn´t know what they were dealing with and they did not have control over all of it and neither did the FBI.

Dulles ordered the changes. I don´t have to say IMO, because I know it was Dulles.

Dulles knew what changes had to be made to the ZAP film because he knew how many shots were fired, how many snipers fired the shots. That in itself fingers Dulles. Because how did the Warren Commission lawyers know what to change, how did th e CIA know what needed changing if not for Dulles.