Jump to content
The Education Forum

Captain Will Fritz debunks the 2nd floor Baker/Oswald encounter in his WC testimony.


Sandy Larsen
 Share

Recommended Posts

Captain Will Fritz, in his WC testimony, reported that his department investigated the alleged Baker/Oswald 2nd floor encounter. Their investigation concluded that it did not occur.


As I've shown in another thread, not all the Oswald interrogation reports indicate that there was a Baker/Oswald encounter on the 2nd floor. (See Bizarre timing reveals the fraudulent addition of the 2nd floor encounter to Oswald interrogation reports.) The Hosty/Bookhout FBI report doesn't mention the encounter. Harry Holmes said nothing of the encounter in his WC testimony, instead placing an encounter near the front door.

And never forget that Marrion Baker himself didn't report the incident in his first-day affidavit. (Yes, he did mention an encounter with a guy on the 3rd or 4th floor, walking away from the steps. But that is certainly not a 2nd floor encounter in a lunchroom.)

It is my belief that the the 2nd floor encounter never occurred. (I do, however, believe that a police officer encountered Oswald on the first floor near the front entrance. As some testimony indicates.)

In his WC testimony, DPD Captain Will Fritz indicated that the 2nd floor encounter didn't occur, this according to a DPD investigation. (Keep in mind that the DPD investigation investigated their own officer, Marrion Baker.) Fritz testified that Roy Truly (or someone else pushing the story) was wrong about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask [Oswald] what happened that day; where he had been?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did he say?

Mr. FRITZ. Well he told me that he was eating lunch with some of the employees when this happened, and that he saw all the excitement and he didn't think--I also asked him why he left the building. He said there was so much excitement there then that "I didn't think there would be any work done that afternoon and we don't punch a clock and they don't keep very close time on our work and I just left."

Mr. BALL. At that time didn't you know that one of your officers, Baker, had seen Oswald on the second floor?

Mr. FRITZ. They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway, but our investigation shows that he actually saw him in a lunchroom, a little lunchroom where they were eating, and he held his gun on this man and Mr. Truly told him that he worked there, and the officer let him go.

Mr. BALL. Did you question Oswald about that?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I asked him about that and he knew that the officer stopped him all right.

Mr. BALL. Did you ask him what he was doing in the lunchroom?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he was having his lunch. He had a cheese sandwich and a Coca-Cola.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he was up there to get a Coca-Cola?

Mr. FRITZ. He said he had a Coca-Cola.

Mr. BALL. That same time you also asked him about the rifle.

As can be seen, Ball attempts to raise the incident to the higher level (2nd floor), but Fritz deflects the change.

Now, someone might object and say that Fritz mentioned the 2nd floor encounter in his handwritten notes. However, I've shown that someone could have easily inserted that comment later on (there was room for it), and that its presence in the notes messed up the timing of when Oswald ate lunch. It moved Oswalds lunch from pre-assassination to post-assassination. Therefore I concluded that the comment was probably fraudulently inserted. (See the bottom of this post.) Fritz's denial of the 2nd floor encounter in his testimony above supports my conclusion.

Now, given that, Fritz's WC testimony is not without problems. Because the policeman's encounter with Oswald has him eating his lunch after the assassination! Which is wrong. It is my belief that either:

  1. Fritz is conflating the lunchroom story with the near-the-front-door story. The encounter really occurred near the front door according to Harry Holmes. Or....
     
  2. The authorities had fabricated the Baker/Oswald encounter (regardless of floor) in order to remove Oswald from the first floor during the shooting, and Fritz somehow didn't get word that the encounter had been moved to the 2nd floor lunchroom. So when he was asked about the 2nd floor encounter, Fritz got confused and frustrated. He decided on the spot to go with the fake story as he knew it  -- occurring on the first floor -- and said  that an investigation showed that the 2nd floor part of the story was incorrect.

    Lest there be any doubt about Fritz's frustration, look at how he stammered in his response: "They told me about that down at the bookstore; I believe Mr. Truly or someone told me about it, told me they had met him--I think he told me, person who told me about, I believe told me that they met him on the stairway"

I'm leaning toward #2. The reason being that it is known that an encounter Oswald had with a police officer, with Truly telling him Oswald was okay, actually involved an Officer Kaminski, not Officer Baker. (See this post.) The 2nd floor encounter story seems to have originated with the Kaminski encounter. The officer was changed to Baker because the films seemed to show Baker rushing into the TSBD, and authorities wanted to use his early arrival to pin Oswald's location down as shortly after the assassination as possible. By having the encounter occur during Oswald's lunch, it moved Oswald's lunchtime from being during the shooting to being after the shooting. That way it could be said Oswald was on the sixth floor during the shooting... not eating lunch. Later the location of the encounter was moved to the 2nd floor lunchroom. This in order to move Oswald further away from the TSBD entrance and closer to the 6th floor.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Timeline of Oswald's Moves

  1. Oswald eats lunch on the first floor.
  2. He may have momentarily gone up to the 2nd floor to buy a coke. After which he returned.
  3. Oswald is on the first floor during the shooting. (Conceivably outside IMO.)
  4. Oswald is outside ("with Shelley") after the shooting for a few minutes. Then goes inside.
  5. After a few minutes Oswald tries to leave the building but is stopped by Officer Kaminski. Kaminski tells Oswald to stay inside. Roy Truly informs Kaminski that Oswald is an employee and Kaminski lets him leave. (Why did Kaminski let Oswald leave?? When others presumably couldn't?)
  6. On Oswald's way out, he directs a credential-carrying SS agent to the telephone. (As per Holmes.)
  7. Truly goes to the 6th floor and informs Captain Fritz that Oswald has vanished.
Edited by Sandy Larsen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

 

 

4 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I do, however, believe that some officer -- possibly Baker -- MAY have encountered Oswald on the first floor near the front door. As some testimony indicates.

Sandy,

 

In the combined after-action report submitted by Batcheor, Lumpkin and Stevenson, Lumpkin wrote that Lieutenant Kaminski was placed at the front door with Roy Truly, and that, as each employee left, Kaminski got their name, address and telephone number, and Truly verified that they worked there.
See DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10, pp. 22-23.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm


In his Report on Oswald's Interrogations in Appendix XI of the WR, Harry Holmes wrote of the Interrogation on the 24th, that Oswald said that as he was leaving the TSBD, he was stopped by a policeman who took his identification. “and his boss stated that he is one of our employees.”
Meaning that, according to Oswald at least, Truly was there. The policeman asked him to step aside momentarily.
WR Appendix XI, p. 636
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page

 

According to the Dallas Dispatch Tapes, at 12:49 PM, Captain Talbert (15) radios in and informs Dispatch that “15's in charge down here. Correction, 5's (Dept. Chief G.L. Lumpkin) in charge.”
Between 12:55 and 1:00 PM, 15 radios in and say, “Think 5 and 9 (Lumpkin and Sawyer) both are in the building.”

 

From Greg Parker:

 

From Jarman's HSCA interview:

"We ran to the front of the building and as we was running out of the building the police stopped us, he told us to come back inside... after we was inside the building after that, I heard that Oswald had come down through the office and come down the front stairs and he was stopped by the officer that had stopped us. And, Oswald was coming out the door and [Billy Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

 

Kaminski told the FBI that he had been working a security detail on Main St. and had arrived at the TSBD too late to prevent Oswald's escape.

See CE 1549

 

Steve Thomas

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Sandy,

In the combined after-action report submitted by Batcheor, Lumpkin and Stevenson, Lumpkin wrote that Lieutenant Kaminski was placed at the front door with Roy Truly, and that, as each employee left, Kaminski got their name, address and telephone number, and Truly verified that they worked there.
See DPD Archives Box 14, Folder# 4, Item# 10, pp. 22-23.
http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/box14.htm


In his Report on Oswald's Interrogations in Appendix XI of the WR, Harry Holmes wrote of the Interrogation on the 24th, that Oswald said that as he was leaving the TSBD, he was stopped by a policeman who took his identification. “and his boss stated that he is one of our employees.”
Meaning that, according to Oswald at least, Truly was there. The policeman asked him to step aside momentarily.
WR Appendix XI, p. 636
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=946#relPageId=660&tab=page

 

According to the Dallas Dispatch Tapes, at 12:49 PM, Captain Talbert (15) radios in and informs Dispatch that “15's in charge down here. Correction, 5's (Dept. Chief G.L. Lumpkin) in charge.”
Between 12:55 and 1:00 PM, 15 radios in and say, “Think 5 and 9 (Lumpkin and Sawyer) both are in the building.”

 

From Greg Parker:

 

From Jarman's HSCA interview:

"We ran to the front of the building and as we was running out of the building the police stopped us, he told us to come back inside... after we was inside the building after that, I heard that Oswald had come down through the office and come down the front stairs and he was stopped by the officer that had stopped us. And, Oswald was coming out the door and [Billy Lovelady] said the police had stopped Oswald and sent him back in the building, Billy Lovelady said that Mr. Truly told the policeman that Oswald was alright, that he worked there, so Oswald walked on down the stairs.

 

Kaminski told the FBI that he had been working a security detail on Main St. and had arrived at the TSBD too late to prevent Oswald's escape.

See CE 1549

Steve Thomas


Thanks Steve.

I've read everything you've provided, and it appears to me that this is what happened:  (Only some of this is gathered from Steve's post.)

  1. Oswald eats lunch on the first floor.
  2. He may have momentarily gone up to the 2nd floor to buy a coke. After which he returned.
  3. Oswald is on the first floor during the shooting. (Conceivably outside IMO.)
  4. Oswald is outside ("with Shelley") after the shooting for a few minutes. Then goes inside.
  5. After a few minutes Oswald tries to leave the building but is stopped by Officer Kaminski. Kaminski tells Oswald to stay inside. Roy Truly informs Kaminski that Oswald is an employee and Kaminski lets him leave. (Why did Kaminski let Oswald leave?? When others presumably couldn't?)
  6. On Oswald's way out, he directs a credential-carrying SS agent to the telephone. (As per Holmes.)
  7. Truly goes to the 6th floor and informs Captain Fritz that Oswald has vanished.
Edited by Sandy Larsen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

In my first post on this thread, I noted a contradiction in Fritz's testimony that results in Oswald's lunch occurring AFTER the assassination. Which is wrong. I attempted to explain how that could have happened.

I have since updated my explanation according to information provided by Steve Thomas. It is now substantially different. I have highlighted the change in red for anybody who wishes to see the update.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sandy and Steve - Really interesting post. It's great that researchers like yourselves have the patience to put these bits of testimony together and show the subterfuge at work. I cannot imagine Oswald being anywhere else but outside watching the motorcade, unless he was on the 6th floor shooting, which I'm certain he wasn't. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 2/4/2017 at 7:25 AM, Sandy Larsen said:


Thanks Steve.

I've read everything you've provided, and it appears to me that this is what happened:  (Only some of this is gathered from Steve's post.)

  1. Oswald eats lunch on the first floor.
  2. He may have momentarily gone up to the 2nd floor to buy a coke. After which he returned.
  3. Oswald is on the first floor during the shooting. (Conceivably outside IMO.)
  4. Oswald is outside ("with Shelley") after the shooting for a few minutes. Then goes inside.
  5. Oswald directs a SS agent to the telephone. (As per Oswald's interrogation.)
  6. After a few minutes Oswald tries to leave the building but is stopped by Officer Kaminski. Kaminski tells Oswald to stay inside. Roy Truly informs Kaminski that Oswald is an employee and Kaminski lets him leave. (Why did Kaminski let Oswald leave?? When others presumably couldn't?)
  7. Truly goes to the 6th floor and informs Captain Fritz that Oswald has vanished.

At the core, moving Oswald to the 2nd floor when Bakers affidavit moves him closer to the 6th floor and "escaping" seems counter productive.  If the point was to get him away from the front door - whether just inside or he is actually prayerman - his being above the 2nd floor at any time after 12:15 appears unlikely from the evidence offered.  I've been posting that the Baker/Truly/Oswald 2nd floor lunchroom scene never happened for many years...  common sense and the windowed door's closing, along with where Truly and Baker were on the stairs has always made it impossible...  

Thanks for writing it out in timeline form...  as we fill in more blanks, maybe we can figure out who they really stopped on the stairs...  any ideas?

 

So then who did Baker describe as " As we reached the third or fourth floor I saw a man walking away from the stairway. I called to the man and he turned around and came back toward me. The manager said, "I know that man, he works here." I then turned the man loose and went up to the top floor. The man I saw was a white man approximately 30 years old, 5'9", 165 pounds, dark hair and wearing a light brown jacket. "

 

  1. 11:50 - 12:15
  2. by 12:15
  3. Mrs. R. E. ARNOLD, Secretary, Texas School Book Depository, advised she was in her office on the second floor of the building on November 22, 1963, and left that office between 12:00 and 12:15 PM, to go downstairs and stand in front of the building to view the Presidential Motorcade. As she was standing in front of the building, she stated she thought she caught a fleeting glimpse of LEE HARVEY OSWALD standing in the hallway between the front door and the double doors leading to the warehouse, located on the first floor. She could not be sure that this was OSWALD, but said she felt it was and believed the time to be a few minutes before 12:15 PM
  4. Bookout's report claims this is well after the assassination...  and reverses the Coke and lunch timeline.  In the Bookout /Hosty report it says Oswald claimed to be on the first floor when the limo went by..  (how would he know when the limo went by if he was inside on the first floor?)
  5. Mr. BELIN. How did you know the person you saw was Lee Harvey Oswald on the second floor? 
    Mrs. REID. Because it looked just like him. 
    Mr. BELIN. You mean the picture with the name Lee Harvey Oswald? 
    Mrs. REID. Oh, yes. 
    Mr. BELIN. But you had seen him in the building? 
    Mrs. REID. Other than that day, sure. 
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember what clothes he had on when you saw him? 
    Mrs. REID. What he was wearing, he had on a white T-shirt and some kind of wash trousers. What color I couldn't tell you. 
    Mr. BELIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked Commission Exhibit, first 157 and then 158, and I will ask you if either or both look like they might have been the trousers that you saw him wear or can you tell? 
    Mrs. REID. I just couldn't be positive about that. I would rather not say, because I just cannot. 
    Mr. BELIN. Do you remember whether he had any shirt or jacket on over his T-shirt? 
    Mrs. REID. He did not. He did not have any jacket on. 

    (Since the interrogation reports all state that he wore a brownish-reddish shirt over his T-shirt...  AND that he changed clothes at home
    1 - Bledsoe and Whaley are telling a canned story & 2 - the man Reid sees cannot be Harvey... can it?

    Mrs. REID. Well, I kept walking and I looked up and Oswald was coming in the back door of the office. I met him by the time I passed my desk several feet and I told him, I said, "Oh, the President has been shot, but maybe they didn't hit him." 
    He mumbled something to me, I kept walking, he did, too. I didn't pay any attention to what he said because I had no thoughts of anything of him having any connection with it at all because he was very calm. He had gotten a coke and was holding it in his hands and I guess the reason it impressed me seeing him in there I thought it was a little strange that one of -the warehouse boys would be up in the office at the time, not that he had done anything wrong. The only time I had seen him in the office was to come and get change and he already had his coke in his hand so he didn't come for change and I dismissed him. I didn't think anything else. 

    Mr. BELIN. When you saw him, I believe you said you first saw him when he was coming through the door? 
    Mrs. REID. Yes, sir. 
    Mr. BELIN. Turning to Exhibit 497, what doorway was it where you first saw him? 
    Mrs. REID. Right here. 
    Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to the doorway between numbers 27 and 28? 
    Mrs. REID. That is right. 
    Mr. BELIN. On Exhibit 497? 
    Mrs. REID. That is right. 
    Mr. BELIN. Where were you when you saw him in that doorway? 
    Mrs. REID. I was coming right through here.
    Mr. BELIN. You are pointing to what number there?
    Mrs. REID. Well, it is 29. 
    Mr. BELIN. 29. And then about where were you when you actually passed him or had this exchange? 
    Mrs. REID. Right along here. I passed my desk. 
    Mr. BELIN. Why don't you put on Exhibit 496 an "X" as to where you were when you thought you passed him. 
    Mrs. REID. Here. 
    Mr. BELIN. I wonder if you would put the initial "R" which we will put for Mrs. Reid. 
    Mrs. REID. All right. 
    Mr. BELIN. By the "X" and that is where you were when you passed him.
     
  6. Is this the list you think was created by these DPD men?   And do we have Truly corroborating any of this? not from what I read of his testimony.  in fact, if you go and read thru it, there are a number of conflicts in the timing of things...  http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/truly2.htm 



     
  7. As mentioned:
    Mr. BALL. Where was Captain Fritz when you saw him? 

    Mr. TRULY. He was on the sixth floor in the area where they found the rifle. 
    Mr. BALL. And was the rifle there at the time? 
    Mr. TRULY. No, I never saw the rifle. 
    Mr. BALL. Was this after or before the rifle had been taken from the building? 
    Mr. TRULY. It was before the rifle had been taken from the building. 
    Mr. BALL. And do you know whether it was before or after the rifle was found? 
    Mr. TRULY. Apparently the rifle had been found before I got to the sixth floor, but just how early, I don't know. 
    Mr. BALL. But you had heard that the rifle was found, had you, by your talk with Fritz? 
    Mr. TRULY. That's--I don't know--I learned it was found while I was on the sixth floor. 
    Mr. BALL. While you were on the sixth floor? 
    Mr. TRULY. While I was on the sixth floor. 
    Mr. BALL. In other words, you went with Chief Lumpkin to the sixth floor, didn't you? 
    Mr. TRULY. Yes. 
    Mr. BALL. And what was your purpose of going there? 
    Mr. TRULY. My purpose in going there was to inform Captain Fritz that this boy was missing and give him his telephone number, and his Irving address, at the suggestion of Chief Lumpkin, who accompanied me. 
    Mr. BALL. Did you give Captain Fritz this name and address? 
    Mr. TRULY. Yes, I did. 
    Mr. BALL. Was it while you were there that you learned the rifle had been found? 
    Mr. TRULY. I don't remember who I learned this from---- 
    Mr. BALL. I didn't ask you that, I'm talking about time only. 
    Mr. TRULY. That was while I was on the sixth floor is when I learned the rifle was found, but I did not see it. 
    Mr. BALL. All right. Now, was it before or after you told Captain Fritz the name and address of Lee Oswald, that you learned that the rifle was found? 
    Mr. TRULY. I can't remember, I believe it was afterwards. 
    Mr. BALL. You are sure it was after you told Captain Fritz---after what, you tell me? 
    Mr. TRULY. I told--well, when Chief Lumpkin and I went to the sixth floor, Captain Fritz was standing in ,the area where I later learned they had found the gun, and Chief Lumpkin told Captain Fritz that Mr. Truly had something to tell him, which I would like to tell him, so he stepped over 4 or 5 feet to where I was, away from the other men---officers and reporters, I would say, that were on the floor, and I repeated the words to Captain Fritz. 
    Mr. BALL. What did you tell him? 
    Mr. TRULY. I told him that we had a man missing---I told him what his name was and his Irving address and he said, "All right, thank you, Mr. Truly. We will get right on it," or words to that effect, and so I left the sixth floor shortly.
    While I was up there, just as I left Captain Fritz, a reporter walked over and said, "What about this fellow Oswald?" And I said, "Where did you learn the name 'Oswald'?" Because I had talked rather low to Captain Fritz and I said, "He's just an employee here," and I left, and sometime---someone informed me that they had found the gun. I don't know who it was. 
    Mr. BALL. About that time? 
    Mr. TRULY. It was along about that time, as near as I can remember, and I went back down to the first floor and I don't think I was up on the sixth floor any other time that day. I possibly could have been, but I don'.t recall it, because I was besieged by reporters and everybody else on the first floor, and talking to officers and so forth and I had no occasion to go back up there. 
    Mr. BALL. Now, about what time of day would you say is your best estimate that you told Captain Fritz of the name "Lee Oswald" and his address? 
    Mr. TRULY. My best estimate would be a little before 1 o'clock--10 minutes. 
    Mr. BALL. The gun wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? 
    Mr. TRULY. It wasn't found until after 1 o'clock? 
    Mr. BALL. No, it wasn't found until after 1 o'clock. I won't tell you exactly the time the gun was found, but I will say that the gun was not found until after 1 o'clock. 
    Mr. TRULY. Well, I may be mistaken about where I learned they had found the gun. I thought it was on the sixth floor--it could have been some other place. 
    Mr. BALL. Captain Fritz said you didn't tell him that until after the gun was found and that seems to correspond with your memory too, is that correct? 
    Mr. TRULY. It sure does, because I remember clearly that Captain Fritz was over at where the gun was found and I'm sure they must have found it or he wouldn't have been standing in that area when we came up there. 
    Mr. BALL. Now, if the gun was found after I o'clock, when was it that you discovered that Lee Oswald wasn't there? 
    Mr. TRULY. I thought it was about 20 minutes after the shooting--the assassination, but it could have been longer. 
    Mr. BALL. In other words, you thought originally it might have been 10 minutes of 2 or so that you learned that? 
    Mr. TRULY. Ten minutes to 1. 
    Mr. BALL. Ten minutes to 1? 
    Mr. TRULY. It was around 1 o'clock--that period of time after I came down from the sixth floor to the first floor was rather hazy in my memory. 
    Mr. BALL. You think it might have been after 1 when you first noticed he wasn't there? 
    Mr. TRULY. I don't think so---I don't feel like at was. It could have possibly been so. 
    Mr. BALL. Well, if the gun was not found before 1:10, if it wasn't found before that, can you give me any estimate? 
    Mr. TRULY. That seems to be a longer time after the assassination. 
    Mr. BALL. You didn't wait 20 minutes from the time you learned Lee Oswald's address until the time you told Captain Fritz, did you? 
    Mr. TRULY. No, sir; I did stand there on the first floor waiting until Chief Lumpkin got through talking for a few minutes. 
    Mr. BALL. Tell me about how many minutes you think it was from the time you obtained the address of Lee Oswald until you told Captain Fritz the name and address? 
    Mr. TRULY. I think it was immediately. 
    Mr. BALL. Immediately? 
    Mr. TRULY. Immediately, after I called to the warehouse and got his name and address in Irving, I turned around and walked over and told Captain Fritz at that time. 

 

Edited by David Josephs
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...