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Wynne and Vicki, Southland Center 1963


Andrej Stancak
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20 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

C'mon Tommy, help us with this stuff please!

Michael,

The only intelligent questions I can think of at the moment are 1 ) where did Wynne and Vicki walk to that building from, and 2 ) where exactly was that coffee shop?  On Olive Street, or somewhere else?

(Thinking like a detective.)

Cheers,

--  Tommy :sun

Edited by Thomas Graves
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It is possible that Veciana did not remember the name of the building during the interviews made by Gaeton Fonzi. Even if Mr. Veciana himself did not give the name of the building in any of his public appearances or interviews, this does not exclude this building as the venue. As Chris pointed out, Mr. Veciana offered enough clues to Mr. Fonzi, so that Mr. Fonzi was able to identify the name building from different clues.

Mr. Johnson can perhaps add more details about Mr. Veciana's memories of  the building because they met and discussed this encounter few years ago.

 

In this recording, Mr. Fonzi says that the building was later determined to be the Southland building. The relevant section is at 38 min 30 sec.

 

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On ‎4‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 9:52 AM, Andrej Stancak said:

It is possible that Veciana did not remember the name of the building during the interviews made by Gaeton Fonzi. Even if Mr. Veciana himself did not give the name of the building in any of his public appearances or interviews, this does not exclude this building as the venue.

No, it does not exclude the building as being the Southland Center. But it should exclude authors and researchers from categorically stating as a fact that it was that building as has become the norm. As for Johnson, it is obvious to me that he is attempting to "insert himself into history" ala Judyth Baker. Anyone who is interested in the truth should disregard him until he can provide some proof of his assertions other than his word.

Edited by W. Tracy Parnell
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49 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

No, it does not exclude the building as being the Southland Center. But it should exclude authors and researchers from categorically stating as a fact that it was that building as has become the norm. As for Johnson, it is obvious to me that he is attempting to "insert himself into history" ala Judyth Baker. Anyone who is interested inn the truth should disregard him until he can provide some proof of his assertions other than his word.

As per Mr. Veciana's memory recall, it would be still useful to show him some contemporary 1963 pictures of various hotels and buildings from Dallas and other cities, and to tape record this small experiment. Maybe this is what Mr. Fonzi did? 

Mr. Wynne Johnson is now a member of the Forum, and has all chances to address your points. I am aware of the risk that old autobiographic memories can be tainted by subsequent information and experiences, and agree that at least some objective, third-party corroboration is necessary for every testimony, including Wynne's late testimony. The difference in our standpoints is that I am willing to give Mr. Johnson the time he needs to gather some evidence, and am not attributing any dishonest motives for coming out with his testimony so late. 

My original post was meant to have Mr. Johnson's remarkable testimony recorded for the history, and if no further corroborating evidence is found to support Wynne's testimony, his testimony will remain as an interesting but unproven part of the JFK assassination history. 

Edited by Andrej Stancak
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Quote

It is possible that Veciana did not remember the name of the building during the interviews made by Gaeton Fonzi.

Thanks Andrej.

Tracy,

Your blog entry on this issue is well written but makes a lot of assumptions without providing any citations.

Quote

I have provided facts that indicate the “Southland Center” was a Fonzi invention.

So you would have me believe that: A Congressional Committee Investigator sent to interview Mr. Veciana about Alpha 66 in 1977, upon learning the revelation that Mr. Veciana met with his CIA Handler and Lee Harvey Oswald, would not have asked, or tried to determine, where this alleged meeting took place?

PS the "Congressional Committee Investigator" mentioned above was not Gaeton Fonzi.

Edited by Chris Newton
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31 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Thanks Andrej.

Tracy,

Your blog entry on this issue is well written but makes a lot of assumptions without providing any citations.

So you would have me believe that: A Congressional Committee Investigator sent to interview Mr. Veciana about Alpha 66 in 1977, upon learning the revelation that Mr. Veciana met with his CIA Handler and Lee Harvey Oswald, would not have asked, or tried to determine, where this alleged meeting took place?

PS the "Congressional Committee Investigator" mentioned above was not Gaeton Fonzi.

Chris,

Fine, if you can point me to that information that would be worth considering and , in fact, it would be helpful in my work. However, assuming you can do that it is still a fact that Veciana never said it was the Southland Center in any of the early 1976 interviews with Fonzi or Russell. My source is those interviews. That leads to the possibility that Veciana told people what they wanted to hear if he in fact referred to Southland.

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1 hour ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Chris,

Fine, if you can point me to that information that would be worth considering and , in fact, it would be helpful in my work. However, assuming you can do that it is still a fact that Veciana never said it was the Southland Center in any of the early 1976 interviews with Fonzi or Russell. My source is those interviews. That leads to the possibility that Veciana told people what they wanted to hear if he in fact referred to Southland.

 

Actually, an apology from me to Tracy is in order.

I indicated that the first interviewer of Veciana was not Gaeton Fonzi based on the HSCA's own citations.

These HSCA notes cite a gentleman named "Vic Walters" as the interviewer:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111947#relPageId=11&tab=page

The index to the HSCA's own report does not mention "Vic Walters"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=56&tab=page

But... Vic Walters was a Newsman and Reporter for WCKT-TV in Miami not a "congressional investigator" from Senator Schweiker's Committee, that was certainly Gaeton Fonzi (my apologies to Marie, as well).

Why would they cite the Walters interviews and not Fonzi?

NARA:


 

AGENCY INFORMATION

AGENCY : HSCA RECORD NUMBER : 180-10097-10138 RECORDS SERIES : NUMBERED FILES AGENCY FILE NUMBER : 002235

 

DOCUMENT INFORMATION

ORIGINATOR : WCKT-TV FROM : VECIANA, ANTONIO TO : [No To] TITLE : [No Title] DATE : 08/19/1977 PAGES : 3 DOCUMENT TYPE : TRANSCRIPT SUBJECTS : VECIANA, ANTONIIO, INTERVIEW; TELEVISION, WCKT; OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, AFFILIATIONS, CIA; BISHOP, MORRIS; OSWALD, LEE, POST RUSSIAN PERIOD, TRAVEL, TRIP TO MEXICO; THREAT, CASTRO, FIDEL; CHILE CLASSIFICATION : UNCLASSIFIED RESTRICTIONS : OPEN IN FULL CURRENT STATUS : OPEN DATE OF LAST REVIEW : 05/17/1993 COMMENTS : Box 53.

 

Edited by Chris Newton
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6 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

 

Actually, an apology from me to Tracy is in order.

I indicated that the first interviewer of Veciana was not Gaeton Fonzi based on the HSCA's own citations.

These HSCA notes cite a gentleman named "Vic Walters" as the interviewer:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=111947#relPageId=11&tab=page

The index to the HSCA's own report does not mention "Vic Walters"

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1212#relPageId=56&tab=page

But... Vic Walters was a Newsman and Reporter for WCKT-TV in Miami not a "congressional investigator" from Senator Schweiker's Committee, that was certainly Gaeton Fonzi (my apologies to Marie, as well).

Why would they cite the Walters interviews and not Fonzi?

 

 

No problem Chris. I don't know why they would cite Walters, could just be an error.

My research has turned up the following primary sources used by Fonzi for the HSCA Vol. X write-up on Veciana (listed here chronologically):

March 2, 1976 interview by Fonzi

March 11, 1976 interview by Fonzi

March 16, 1976 interview by Fonzi

Summer, 1976 interview by Dick Russell (not used by Fonzi but important since it is an early source)

April, 1978 testimony of Veciana before HSCA

August 30, 1978 Outside Contact Report on Veciana by Fonzi/McDonald

Of course, some sources listed in Vol. X are memos and the like but they refer back to these sources. Veciana did not mention the Southland Center in any of these early sources, only a bank or insurance company (sometimes with a blue façade). We can be sure of this since Fonzi would have used it in his write-up, but I do have all the sources listed as well with the partial exception of the Veciana testimony which I am waiting for (the part of his testimony relevant to Southland is available on Armstrong's archive and it does not mention SC). I will be making these sources available when I finish my upcoming series. All of this does not preclude the Southland Center being the place of the meeting nor does it confirm it, but my complaint is when it is stated as a fact as in some books and articles.  If anyone knows of a relevant source I am missing please let me know.

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  • 2 weeks later...

     The place was the Southland Center, folks, just as I said.  In 1963, that block used to have both the Southland Center and the Sheraton Hotel, separate high-rise buildings.  Now, both buildings are the Sheraton Hotel. 

      One reason that I was able to forget September 7, 1963, was that I was nowhere near Dealey Plaza on November 22, which also came a full eleven weeks later.  So even after November 26, after I realized that Vicki and I had seen the accused assassin downtown back in September, I could convince myself that we really had nothing to do with the assassination.  At 12:30 pm on November 22, I was at home in Dallas at 6057 DeLoache Avenue.  (This house no longer looks anything like it did before my parents finally sold it in the 1980s; it has been extensively remodeled by new owners.)  My school, Jesuit High School, had been given that Friday off for two reasons:  (1) so that we go see the President and (2) so that some people at the school could have more time to prepare for a speech tournament to begin that evening.  Such tournaments usually took parts of two days.  Part of it would be held Friday evening, the other part on Saturday.  As for going to see the President, I thought that there would be a lot of traffic and that I would learn all about it later in the news anyway,  So I decided to stay home.  Later in the afternoon, I went to the school to find out whether the tournament had been cancelled.  Of course, by then I knew of the assassination and supposed that the tournament would be cancelled, but I wanted to know for certain.
      By the way, if you see my videos on Vimeo.com, rather than YouTube, then you will see that there is a Part 4.  But Part 4 is private; you need a password.  I make the password available to members of this forum. The password is "BarrowJonathon's" (without the quotation marks).  Note the apostrophe-s.  Note that the spelling "Jonathon" is not the usual spelling of that name.  It happens to be the spelling of the name of a present-day restaurant almost diagonally across Beckley Avenue from Oswald's rooming house in Dallas.  I chose it in order to give the password indirectly to somebody with whom I visited the restaurant in 2015.  Barrow is the last name of Clyde Barrow, of Bonnie and Clyde fame, whose ancestral home we went to see on that same day, too.  I had scant interest in the Barrow house, but the two people with me were foreigners who wanted to see it.  At any rate, this is the password.  At the beginning of the video, I say some things that ought to explain why the video has been private.  However, I am in inclined to trust the members of this forum to be, mostly at least, decent people not looking for something to sensationalize or profit from.  I am not trying to keep the contents of the video totally private, but I do not trust the widest possible public.  At least, I am hoping that more responsible people will see the video first. 

https://vimeo.com/110218535 Part 1

https://vimeo.com/125991781 Part 2

https://vimeo.com/126693813 Part 3

https://vimeo.com/185283856 Part 4

Wynne Johnson

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Mr. Johnson, could you share more of your thoughts on the shared aspects of your recollections of the Phillips, Oswald, Veciana meeting with Veciana's recollection of this same meeting?

Part of my sense of credibility regards your story relies on the very similar points ( to your specifics recollections )  that Veciana makes such as he and Phillips going to a coffee shop shortly after first meeting.

Did Veciana state in public this specific aspect of the meeting before ever meeting or conversing with you?

And did you state this coffee shop aspect of the recollection before ever hearing Veciana share this in any public domain way?

I guess what I am looking for is something that links your recollections and Veciana's in a way that could not be explained by either one of you hearing such from the other before you came out with your story.

At this initial point of hearing your Phillips, Veciana,Oswald meeting story my life experience gut instincts tell me you what you are relating is the truth as you know it.

 

Edited by Joe Bauer
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Since Joe opened a line of questions, I have a couple for Mr. Johnson.

- In an early video, other than #4, I believe that you stated that "Vicky"'was a pseudonym, and that she wished to not be named. Video 4 shows a picture of her, yet she is identified as Vicky. I am confused as to wether her name IS Vicky, because, with the photograph being shown, she is, or will be, no longer anonymous. Can you clarify?

-Also, the ID of DAP at the dance should be something that can be verified by other sources. Do you expect that to happen?

Cheers,

Michael

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