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Wynne and Vicki, Southland Center 1963


Andrej Stancak
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14 hours ago, Ty Carpenter said:

Any guesses what the "dark rumour" may be?

Ty,

Johnson references this "dark rumor" on pp. 5 and 6 of his answers to W. Tracy Parnell here:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1jBlEUC1sWxs1MzBXWPnqTZNfDWZKcH0U/view

Frankly, I can't make heads or tails of it. Something to with black mob violence and race wars and 1921 Tulsa race riots.

(But, it's only a rumor mind you. Johnson says that, "Dark rumor" is "descriptive enough".).

image.png.91b4f095a1c3b9f1149f0dd1b429ff38.png

etc.

Steve Thomas

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having over 30 years experience of reading accounts of many of the people who claim to have detailed or peripheral knowledge of the assassination - there are clear patterns -

they will often change the story, especially when questioned

have a rambling, incoherent and confusing narrative 

confuse the reader by bringing in new claims when questioned,

have 'mental blockages' of certain events,

claim they will not or cannot name others who can back up or support their story, due to fears for their life or other repercussions

claim they are not looking to profit from their story but are dealing with researchers ,writers or have websites that make money from traffic,

refer to other witnesses who are now deceased,

claim to have been involved in activities that are inappropriate for their position in life or society, etc etc 

the list goes on and on

I was thinking over the last few days of how easy this can happen  - and have an example

My father is 90 years old next week - after national military service in the air force he was a merchant sailor in the 50's and worked quite extensively around the world including North and South America, the Caribbean and Europe.

I remember him telling me of his time in Cuba and how he thought Batista was a 'bastard' and treated the people very badly

How easy it would be for me to create a story based on this historical truth - 

I could claim that on shore leave in Havana that he can remember visiting a hotel / casino seeing people who resembled anyone one of the major players in the case - Oswald, Ruby, Roselli, etc etc -  I could claim that after they realised he was from England had military service, access to a merchant vessel and presumably not a direct threat to them that they got into a drunken conversation in which they detailed the outline of their activities in the murky political world of that time - smuggling, money laundering, drugs, covert military action etc 

years later when the events in Dallas occurred he remembered that evening but then put it out of his mind and then only told me snippets of information as years went by - but as the interest in the case has grown he told me more and more as he 'remembered' more and more

as the researcher I have fed him information or directed questions that have embellished the simple story allowing it to strengthen and link it other stories or theories 

I could then disseminate the story through various sites, and hope to see if anyone will be interested and thus perhaps gain the same exposure as people like JVB, Oliver ,Hemming, Files

Some might say that this is not possible but if you look at the situation with JVB and her position now in the 'research community' I would claim that it is

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On 1/29/2020 at 1:43 PM, Wynne Johnson said:

I am responding to the additional questions -- 33 in all -- in the attached file.

Purnel reply.pdf 543.67 kB · 13 downloads

One quick follow-up question Mr. Johnson if you would be so kind. You state in your latest reply to me that "it is not unthinkable" that  Malcolm Wallace was there at Southland to meet with David Phillips, although you concede that you do not know this to be a fact. Just to be sure I have it right, this was a man near the elevator and seperate from the other three men? In other words, Phillips was to meet with Oswald, Veciana and Wallace that day?

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  • 5 weeks later...

 

I did not say that the rumor presented a threat of "black mob violence" in 1963.  I did say that there was black mob violence later, after 1963 in other parts of the U.S., which is part of the historical record.  In fact, as I heard some details of the 1963 rumor in 1971, the threat in 1963 would have come from white reaction to the incident, so that it would have been white mob violence at least as much as black.  There already was a history of that sort of thing, and I cited the Tulsa Race Riot of 1921 as an example known of in 1963.  Although both races participated in that 1921 riot in Tulsa, the Black residents of the Greenwood District definitely got the worst of it.

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No, I am not suggesting that.  I am not suggesting otherwise either.  The rumored incident that I referred to, only rumored, took place after the assassination, apparently during the following week, and was apparently not directly related to it.  I emphasize, not directly.  But anything likely to attract attention in Dallas very shortly after the assassination was likely to be seen as somehow a consequence of it, whatever the facts.  This was part of what there was to worry about and what would have formed an additional motive for silence in the minds of many in Dallas.  I was never inside all those minds, but I was acquainted with them, and I myself saw the danger of civil unrest.

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19 minutes ago, Wynne Johnson said:

No, I am not suggesting that.  I am not suggesting otherwise either.  The rumored incident that I referred to, only rumored, took place after the assassination, apparently during the following week, and was apparently not directly related to it.  I emphasize, not directly.  But anything likely to attract attention in Dallas very shortly after the assassination was likely to be seen as somehow a consequence of it, whatever the facts.  This was part of what there was to worry about and what would have formed an additional motive for silence in the minds of many in Dallas.  I was never inside all those minds, but I was acquainted with them, and I myself saw the danger of civil unrest.

Wynne, are you referring to General Walker’s crowd? 

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If I may say, there was rather a Roman climate of excitability In Dallas that even three major killings in one weekend could not satisfy, but instead aggravated.

One wonders where the alleged stabbing victim in Oak Cliff on November 22nd fits into this, the one taken away by car, that Tippit supposedly investigated in his busy last hour.

Edited by David Andrews
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I do not think that it was the same incident.  For one thing, the incident that I referred to happened at night.  So it could not have happened on the 22nd before Tippit was murdered, since that happened in the daytime.  I think it more likely for the following week, after Oswald's murder -- the night of Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, or possibly even Thursday (Thanksgiving Day), but not later than Thursday, when I first heard of it, but only briefly in veiled terms, that Thanksgiving night from Vicki at her house.  As I said, nobody ever told me any details until my first wife Beverly did on January 3 or 4, 1971.  I assumed then and ever since that she was talking about the same incident that Vicki was referring to on November 28, 1963.  Beverly, too, was living in Oak Cliff in November of 1963; she was 13 years old then and living with her family.  I did not know Beverly in 1963.

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Reply to Mr. Purnell's follow-up question.  Yes, Malcolm Wallace would have been a fourth man, not Oswald or Phillips or Veciana,.  And, yes, he would have been near the elevators -- the ones that I call the regular elevators because they were not the observation deck elevator, which was down a hallway to our left.  The regular elevators were to our left also, but closer, just across the lobby, ahead and to our left, in the left wall (northwest) wall of the lobby.  And you are right that I do not assert that that that particular memory of the fourth man (who resembled Malcolm Wallace, I found out many years later) is reliable as real as opposed to dreamed.  I say that if Vicki remembers the man, too, then he must have been there for real.  I admitted to having had a dream long ago that interfered with my memory.  And this particular memory I regard as possibly unreal.  Another memory is definitely unreal: the brief exchange in Spanish between Veciana and Phillips.  That could not have happened in reality.  However, I stand by everything else as absolutely real, however odd or peculiar it may seem.  I even included a list of some of those facts, and I am well aware that some of them must seem at least odd, but they did happen.

 

 

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Reply to Stephen Lavin:  Maybe you could invent a story about your father, but I take it that you would not do that.  I did not invent my story either.  However, I humbly suggest that you consider telling your father's true story in some way to make it to accessible to historians.  Be sure to include as much detail as you can.  Err on the side of inclusion rather than the reverse.  Assume that people are interested.  Say enough in general to allow a sufficiently interested historian to confirm it to the extent possible.  I emphasize: to the extent possible.  Much of his story may have to come only from his memory.  That cannot be helped.  If you can record him on video or at least audio, that might help a lot.  

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