Was The HSCA's conclusion helpful to the case of certain 'Conspiracy Theories'

[James DiEugenio]

Don Thomas revealed that Blakey eliminated the other peaks since he told him he would never be able to get a majority vote on the committee for more than four shots.

It is impossible to understand what happened to the HSCA, why they ended up being so weak and compromised, if you do not understand the bloodletting that went on when Sprague left.  For all intents and purposes, any real hope of a true investigation was lost at that point.  Therefore, even when Blakey came up with the acoustics he himself had to shortchange it for political purposes.

BTW, how many people know that Specter had a mole inside the committee working with Bob Edgar?  Pat Speer knows the details about this.

[Paul Trejo]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 4:48 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

Paul,

From reading the entire conclusion of the HSCA, they have, in overly simplistic terms, 3 shots coming from the 'Sniper's Nest' and 1 shot coming from the 'Grassy Knoll'. In their conclusion they further state that the 3 shots were fired by Lee Harvey Oswald with his 2nd and 3rd shot hitting JFK (his last one being the fatal shot) and they state that the 1 shot from the 'Grassy Knoll' missed...

Irrespective of who actually took the shots, and irrespective of which ones actually hit or missed, the HSCA used the 'acoustic evidence' to conclude a total of 4 shots; 3 shots coming from the 'Sniper's Nest' and 1 shot coming from the 'Grassy Knoll'

You seem to be 'overplaying your hand' so to speak. Allow me to 'fix' that for you.

The fact of the acoustic evidence strongly suggests one shot only from the Grassy Knoll.

Setting aside that 'badgeman' may just be an 'illusion' of sorts... I can honestly say that in any image of 'badgeman' that I've seen I have never seen other people with DPD badges surrounding him...

I'm not sure that when people rushed up to the Grassy Knoll ALL they saw were DPD cops. Happy to be shown otherwise.

Alistair,

Please don't be so literal -- it leads you to jump to conclusions.   Give a sentence some room to breathe.   I will respond by the numbers:

(1) Just because I accept the conclusion (tentative as it was) of the HSCA, does not at all mean that I accept everything that the HSCA produced.

(1.1) For example, the HSCA failed to call General Walker as a witness.  Thus they were blind-sighted for the rest of their two years of operation.

(1.2) But the greatest flaw of the HSCA was that they failed to get President Jimmy Carter's approval to view the thousands of records about the JFK assassination kept secret starting with Supreme Court Justice Earl Warren, FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover, and President LBJ.

(1.3) Without those secret records, trying to solve the JFK assassination mysteries is like trying to solve a large addition problem, when some of the numbers are kept secret.  The proposed solutions are endless -- and perhaps most will be wildly off base.

(2)  All my theory needs is one shot from the Grassy Knoll to be correct.  There were also shots from the DalTex building, in my CT, as well as from the TSBD 6th floor -- but Lee Harvey Oswald shot none of those.   However, like an idiot he handed over his rifle to somebody that he trusted that very morning.

(3) The literature on Badgeman has become enormous.  The proposal that other Officers in uniform can be discerned next to Badgeman is not my theory -- I read it from an enthusiast with some stature.  I'll look up that source again.

(4)  Again, I ask for some breathing room for my sentences.   Americans often speak in generalities (but we can also be specific when motivated).  My point is that several WC witnesses, including DPD officers, said that they ran to the Grassy Knoll, and looked behind the fence, and saw nobody else there except Dallas Police officers.  This includes Deputy Sheriffs Buddy Walthers and Roger Craig -- what to speak of the Babushka Lady, IIRC, who claims she got a photograph of Roscoe White on the Grassy Knoll -- but the photo was taken from her by officials. 

Also, Bill Shelley and Billy Lovelady said that mainly DPD cops were there along with other motorcade spectators and the press.  DPD cop J.M. Smith said that he stopped a guy in a suit, who showed him a Secret Service card (though he later found out that there were no Secret Service agents assigned to Dealey Plaza that day). 

So, yes, my statement was an exaggeration -- but it was a common expression by eye-witnesses, because it means to express that no shooters were seen by anybody -- and it appeared to them that the DPD were already behind the picket fence when the fastest of them arrived.  There is ample WC testimony to this effect.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Alistair Briggs]

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Alistair,

Please don't be so literal -- it leads you to jump to conclusions.   Give a sentence some room to breathe.   I will respond by the numbers:

To be fair, I'm just probing the questions, playing 'devil's advocate' if you like. (Personally, I don't really have a 'conclusion' either way )

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(2)  All my theory needs is one shot from the Grassy Knoll to be correct.  There were also shots from the DalTex building, in my CT, as well as from the TSBD 6th floor -- but Lee Harvey Oswald shot none of those.   However, like an idiot he handed over his rifle to somebody that he trusted that very morning.

From the 'acoustic evidence', the HSCA stated 4 shots - 3 from TSBD, 1 from Grassy Knoll. As previously mentioned in this thread (and with no contentions on my part) the "BBN concluded there were six candidate shots". one of which was ruled out as it didn't have the ' required 11 echo peaks' another was ruled out (and again with no contentions on my part) for 'political reasons'. Whether or not those other two noises were actually shots (pushing the total up to 6), the 'acoustic evidence' used by the HSCA states 3 shots from the TSBD and 1 from the GK.

*As an aside, somewhat ironically if the 'acoustic evidence' was wrong (that is to say, if it was actually recorded at a different location at a different time, and none of the noises thus were 'shots) it puts us back at square one, not knowing how many 'shots' there were and from where. lol

Anyways,

The part about Oswald 'handing over his rifle...' - at some point I would welcome a discussion on how the rifle made it from that point to being on the 6th floor. (Of course there is really no way to know for sure, but a wee game of supposition would be interesting. )

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

(3) The literature on Badgemen has become enormous.  The proposal that other Officers in uniform can be discerned next to Badgeman is not my theory -- I read it from an enthusiast with some stature.  I'll look up that source again.

From what I have seen, there appears to be two people 'surrounding' 'badgeman' and I have seen each of those two variously be claimed to be a certain type of person, for example;

What I have never seen is anyone make the claim that the two people 'surrounding' 'badgeman' are 'officers in uniform'. And if I'm honest, I don't see how anyone could make the claim that the other two people are 'officers in uniform'.

All somewhat beside the point because 'badgeman' could still be an 'illusion'. Even if 'badgeman' is really there, and even if he is actually an 'officer in unifrom, and irrespective of whether or not he is 'shooting' or doing something else, all the image can be said to reveal, at best, is that at that time there was only one visible police officer (which doesn't preclude others being in the general vicinity, only that we have no (photographic) proof either way).

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

So, yes, my statement was an exaggeration -- but it was a common expression by eye-witnesses, because it means to express that no shooters were seen by anybody -- and it appeared to them that the DPD were already behind the picket fence when the fastest of them arrived.  There is ample WC testimony to this effect.

I don't doubt that by the time the fastest of the 'witnesses' arrived behind the picket fence that there may have been 'some' DPD officers there. The question is were those DPD officers already there at the time of the shots or did they arrive afterwards (either before or at the same time as the 'witnesses')

A lot can change within 30 seconds...

(Above: Couch/Darnell clip. Approx 30 seconds after shots. Of interest is the furthest left (as we look at it) showing the grass verge leading up to the picket fence.)

Regards

P.S.

4 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Americans often speak in generalities (but we can also be specific when motivated). 

Don't sweat it, it's not just the Americans who do that, we do it just as much.

P.P.S.

5 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

 -- what to speak of the Babushka Lady, IIRC, who claims she got a photograph of Roscoe White on the Grassy Knoll -- but the photo was taken from her by officials.

Oooft, Beverly Oliver made quite a lot of claims... was she actually the Babushka Lady though? I have my doubts.

[Paul Trejo]

8 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

...The part about Oswald 'handing over his rifle...' - at some point I would welcome a discussion on how the rifle made it from that point to being on the 6th floor. (Of course there is really no way to know for sure, but a wee game of supposition would be interesting. ) ...

Alistair,

My CT is based only on my concatenation of CT's made by others who have published books on the topic.  My main source here is A.J. Weberman (NODULE 23) who interviewed Gerry Patrick Hemming in the 1970's.  IMHO, Hemming was part of the JFK Kill Team, and deliberately worked to set up LHO as a patsy.   Hemming was also working with Guy Banister in New Orleans, as well as Ex-General Edwin Walker in Dallas, and many people that they knew in common -- most especially members of Interpen (like Loran Hall and Larry Howard) as well as Cuban refugees like Carlos Bringuier and Eladio del Valle.   Hemming was a leader among these mercenaries.

According to my reading of A.J. Weberman, he heard the special confession by Gerry Patrick Hemming to the effect that Hemming called LHO from Miami on 11/21/1963, and offered LHO double the price of his Manlicher-Carcano rifle if he would bring it to the TSBD the next morning, and hand it over to a common acquaintance.  LHO did that.

That, if true, makes Hemming part of the JFK Kill Team.  It also makes Hemming into a deliberate framer of LHO, as part of a larger plot involving rogues in the Dallas Police Department (and/or Dallas Sheriff's Department).  

Why would LHO just believe Hemming and put himself at risk that way?  That is explained, IMHO, by both Jim Garrison's work, and by the work of Jeff Caufield in his recent book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

According to Jim Garrison, LHO was not a Communist, and was not any sort of officer of the FPCC, instead, LHO was working for Guy Banister in NOLA, at 544 Camp Street.  Guy Banister was an Anticommunist blackmailer, who would recruit young men at colleges to support Fidel Castro and the FPCC, and then spy on them and extract information from them that was damaging to the FPCC.

Jim Garrison's perception of Guy Banister and his relationship with LHO in the summer of 1963 is also confirmed by the interesting book by Ron Lewis: FLASHBACK: The Untold Story of Lee Harvey Oswald (1993) from a first-person perspective.

This is the context in which LHO knew Gerry Patrick Hemming.  Jeff Caufield (2015) shows that Gerry Patrick Hemming knew both Guy Banister and General Walker.  The context was Anticommunism.  LHO was being used as an amateur double-agent in a plot to assassinate Fidel Castro.   (Naturally the CIA would be interested in this, and David Atlee Phillips wrote in a fictional novel of the period, that he was very interested in helping LHO infiltrate the Communists in 1963, and even helped him.  This is in Phillip's novel, The AMLASH Legacy (1988)).

So, LHO was part of an on-going plot to assassinate Fidel Castro, and so was Gerry Patrick Hemming.  That is why LHO trusted Hemming so much.  That is also why LHO didn't worry about the JFK motorcade going by his own place of work on the day he brought his rifle to work.  It didn't occur to LHO, because LHO didn't connect the dots.  LHO only considered Hemming as a trusted comrade in the context of a Kill Fidel plot.

Now -- in this "wee game of supposition," Alistair, we want to guess the identity of the person to whom LHO handed his rifle on the morning of 11/22/1963.  In this CT, the rifle soon found its way into the hands of rogues within the Dallas Police Department (and/or Dallas Sheriff's Department) by 12:15pm at the latest.  So, who was the bagman? 

I will take a guess here -- it could have been Loran Hall -- a former member of Interpen, who was also part of the JFK Kill Team, in my CT.  Gerry Patrick Hemming later told A.J. Weberman that Loran Hall was in Dallas on 11/22/1963, and LHO trusted Loran Hall very much -- according to Harry Dean.   (According to Harry Dean's manuscript, Crosstrails (1990), Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove LHO to Mexico City on 9/23/1963, going through Dallas, and stopping at Sylvia Odio's apartment).

So -- that's my first guess, Alistair.  The bagman was Loran Hall.  I'm open to alternate CT's based on extra data.   (I'll respond to more of your interesting post later in the day.)

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited February 13, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[James DiEugenio]

Alistair and PT:

Do you know how dubious Badgeman is today?  I mean its an open question as to where he even is.  If he is there.

[Alistair Briggs]

10 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Now -- in this "wee game of supposition," Alistair, we want to guess the identity of the person to whom LHO handed his rifle on the morning of 11/22/1963.  In this CT, the rifle soon found its way into the hands of rogues within the Dallas Police Department (and/or Dallas Sheriff's Department) by 12:15pm at the latest.  So, who was the bagman? 

I will take a guess here -- it could have been Loran Hall -- a former member of Interpen, who was also part of the JFK Kill Team, in my CT.  Gerry Patrick Hemming later told A.J. Weberman that Loran Hall was in Dallas on 11/22/1963, and LHO trusted Loran Hall very much -- according to Harry Dean.   (According to Harry Dean's manuscript, Crosstrails (1990), Loran Hall and Larry Howard drove LHO to Mexico City on 9/23/1963, going through Dallas, and stopping at Sylvia Odio's apartment).

So -- that's my first guess, Alistair.  The bagman was Loran Hall.  I'm open to alternate CT's based on extra data.   (I'll respond to more of your interesting post later in the day.)

Thanks for the response Paul, much appreciated.

I probably should have been more clear with my question about the rifle; what I was meaning was the 'route' of the rifle itself (rather than who actually 'routed it').

Regards

[Alistair Briggs]

15 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Alistair and PT:

Do you know how dubious Badgeman is today?  I mean its an open question as to where he even is.  If he is there.

Personally, as an overly simplistic answer, I reckon badgeman is just an 'illusion'.

[James DiEugenio]

I don't know about being an illusion but I would not at all make the assumption of where he is or if he is definitely there.

As per Oswald handing off a rifle that morning, I mean whew!

Only Hemming could say something like that.  That evidence has now been brought into so much doubt that its simply and completely untrustworthy.

At that AAARC conference in 2014 Frazier told Jerry Policoff that there was no way in the world Oswald brought a rifle to work that day.

 

[Alistair Briggs]

6 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I don't know about being an illusion but I would not at all make the assumption of where he is or if he is definitely there.

A polaroid photo isn't particularly big to start with, and if memory serves me right 'badgeman's head' equates to 1/69th of an inch - considering the relative size and that it is in the background, I think there is always going to be a certain amount of differing interpretations of it and because of that different people will have different interpretations of what they see.

If memory sevres me right, was 'badgeman' not found in a 'good 2nd generation copy'...

That's one of the things about any of the photos/films of that day, some are better copies than other... 

Sometimes when a person has 'convinced' themselves of what they see it becomes difficult to unsee it.

As something of an aside, regarding the Mary Moorman polaroid, I can honeslty say that I have never seen anyone make mention (even flippantly) of the big 'alien'...

[Alistair Briggs]

28 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

As per Oswald handing off a rifle that morning, I mean whew!

Only Hemming could say something like that.  That evidence has now been brought into so much doubt that its simply and completely untrustworthy.

At that AAARC conference in 2014 Frazier told Jerry Policoff that there was no way in the world Oswald brought a rifle to work that day.

 

*Put's on Devil's Advocate hat...

there seems to be, in overly simplistic terms, 3 options...

1. Oswald did not bring a rifle to work that day.
2. Oswald did bring a rifle to work that day and passed it off to someone else.
3. Oswald did bring a rifle to work that day and did not pass it off to someone else.

The question fundamentally becomes from where did the rifle come from (and when) and where did the rifle end up (and when)... as per the 'official account' the rifle came from the Paine's garage and ended up on the 6th floor of the TSBD... the question of when remains, and indeed the how...

Happy to hear thoughts on the matter.

[James DiEugenio]

I am in camp number 1.

For reasons adduced by people like Gil Jesus, John Armstrong, and Martha Moyer, I do not think Oswald ever ordered that rifle, which is what Oswald himself said in detention.

But if you follow the evidence: who saw him with that package inside the building?  If i recall correctly, Sylvia Meagher writes that  no  one did.  I think Lifton, if he argues for this thesis in his book, is going to use that "fishing pole" newspaper story of someone seeing him in the elevator.  All I can say to that is:  to each his own.

 

But let me add one last thing in this regard.  As time goes on, and more and more evidence is brought into the arena, in my opinion, there are left over shibboleths that are being more and more discarded.  One example being that second floor lunch encounter which Bart K has done such good work on.  I think one test of Lifton's book will be how he handles these shibboleths.  In Best Evidence, he gave Jim Garrison the back of his hand. In that regard, it  will be interesting to see in telling the story of Oswald how he handles New Orleans.  Because due to the ARRB, most authors agree that that  evidence has multiplied in abundance and importance.

[Michael Clark]

Just as an aside...

I am curious as to how many people have to be lying in order for LHO to be telling the truth that he never owned that rifle. I am talking first hand people. 

-Marina

-George and Mrs. DeMohernchildt ( I think they both saw it when DeM. asked LHO if he had taken the Walker pot shot.)

(I am going to keep an eye out, as I read, to fill out this list. I have to read the Paine's testimony again.)

Edited February 13, 2017 by Michael Clark

[Alistair Briggs]

14 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I am curious as to how many people have to be lying in order for LHO to be telling the truth that he never owned a rifle.

*never owned that rifle...

[Michael Clark]

12 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

*never owned that rifle...

Thanks, I fixed it.

[Alistair Briggs]

26 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I am in camp number 1.

For reasons adduced by people like Gil Jesus, John Armstrong, and Martha Moyer, I do not think Oswald ever ordered that rifle, which is what Oswald himself said in detention.

It's possible that the rifle could have been in Oswald's possession despite not having ordered it himself...

 

28 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

But if you follow the evidence: who saw him with that package inside the building?  If i recall correctly, Sylvia Meagher writes that  no  one did.  I think Lifton, if he argues for this thesis in his book, is going to use that "fishing pole" newspaper story of someone seeing him in the elevator.  All I can say to that is:  to each his own.

I've never come across anyone saying that they saw Oswald with that package inside the building. Arguably that points to Oswald not having taken the package in... the flip side is that no one has said that they saw anyone else take in that package either... the way I look at it then is if the rifle was on the 6th floor at the time of the shots (irrespective of whether it was fired or not, or being 'manned' or not) it must have made it there at some point unseen.

I haven't seen a 'fishing pole' newspaper story, any links to it online?

34 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

But let me add one last thing in this regard.  As time goes on, and more and more evidence is brought into the arena, in my opinion, there are left over shibboleths that are being more and more discarded.  One example being that second floor lunch encounter which Bart K has done such good work on.  I think one test of Lifton's book will be how he handles these shibboleths.  In Best Evidence, he gave Jim Garrison the back of his hand. In that regard, it  will be interesting to see in telling the story of Oswald how he handles New Orleans.  Because due to the ARRB, most authors agree that that  evidence has multiplied in abundance and importance.

First I'd like to say that I appreciate the work Bart K has done in that regard, it is really good work. Personally I'm yet to be convinced on the whole of it, but not against it either fundamentally.

P.S. lol I had to Google 'shibboleth' to see what it meant, haven't come across that word before.