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Was The HSCA's conclusion helpful to the case of certain 'Conspiracy Theories'


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I think about a couple of years ago, Lifton posted a news story from about  a day or so after the murder in which someone said they saw Oswald on an elevator with a long package which looked like he had a fishing pole in it.  I don't recall the thread but maybe someone else does.

Yes Alistair, the point is THAT rifle.

 Because recall, in her first SS interview, Marina said she never saw a rifle with a scope in Oswald's possession. (Reclaiming Parkland, p. 86)

As per Jeanne D seeing the rifle, I don't know how she saw it there when Marina said Oswald had buried it during that time. Someone is either lying or mistaken. (ibid, p. 105)

Edited by James DiEugenio
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16 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

No worries :)

Great question you have asked. I look forward to seeing what you come up with. :)

I  stopped as soon as I started. I copied Marinas testimony and I forgot how dumbfounded it makes me....

LHO: "Hi honey, I'm home! I just took a shot at General Walker!"

Reading stuff like this stops me in my tracks. I don't know what to do with it.

Obviously, that is not the real statement of LHO. Here is a line from Marina.


Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it. 

To be sure, however,  the list is not that long, although I obviously haven't read everything.

Marina, G. De M., possibly Mrs De M., throw in the Paine's just as speculation and that very well could be it.

Edith Whitworth saw a scope, or other rifle part. There may be another gunsmith in the testimony.

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3 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

To be sure, however,  the list is not that long, although I obviously haven't read everything.

 

Marina, G. De M., possibly Mrs De M., throw in the Paine's just as speculation and that very well could be it.

Edith Whitworth saw a scope, or other rifle part. There may be another gunsmith in the testimony.

I can imagine that there might not be any more to add to the list...

... just on the subject of the rifle etc I have been looking through a couple of books to find the references Oswald is claimed to have said about it under interrogation. There's a couple of things that have jumped out at me a wee bit, so I am going to have to double check it all. I will try and knock something up about it as soon as I can. ;)

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7 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I think about a couple of years ago, Lifton posted a news story from about  a day or so after the murder in which someone said they saw Oswald on an elevator with a long package which looked like he had a fishing pole in it.  I don't recall the thread but maybe someone else does.

Yes Alistair, the point is THAT rifle.

 Because recall, in her first SS interview, Marina said she never saw a rifle with a scope in Oswald's possession. (Reclaiming Parkland, p. 86)

As per Jeanne D seeing the rifle, I don't know how she saw it there when Marina said Oswald had buried it during that time. Someone is either lying or mistaken. (ibid, p. 105)

Gearge saw it and asked Lee iif he took the Pot-shot at the General. George's wife was there but I don't recall if she saw it as well. I was just throwing her in for good measure, to come up with a quick "at most" count. It isn't a large number of people that personally, visually, knew that Lee owned a rifle.

Regarding the "a" rifle or "that" rifle, I think I am correct that LHO did not own any other rifle since at least as far back as when he went to Russia. 

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9 minutes ago, Alistair Briggs said:

I can imagine that there might not be any more to add to the list...

... just on the subject of the rifle etc I have been looking through a couple of books to find the references Oswald is claimed to have said about it under interrogation. There's a couple of things that have jumped out at me a wee bit, so I am going to have to double check it all. I will try and knock something up about it as soon as I can. ;)

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. They said, "We have a picture of you holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him about this rifle that came to this post office box.
They asked him, "Do you own a rifle?" He said, "No."

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20 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

I think about a couple of years ago, Lifton posted a news story from about  a day or so after the murder in which someone said they saw Oswald on an elevator with a long package which looked like he had a fishing pole in it.  I don't recall the thread but maybe someone else does.

I will have a dig about and see if I can come across it. :)

21 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Yes Alistair, the point is THAT rifle.

Just to avoid any confusion, I 'qualified' 'that' rifle only because Oswald admitted to Fritz that he had owned a rifle 'a good many years ago'. ;)

 

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On 2/11/2017 at 1:53 PM, James DiEugenio said:

I would like to reply on two planes:

 

1.  As per the HSCA conclusion backing up what Trejo says happened, I cannot see that in any way.  And this includes not just the report, but also the declassified HSCA files, of which I am fairly familiar.  Much more so that I think Paul is.  If anyone knows anything differently, that is that the report or the files fortifies either Trejo or Caufield in any substantial way, then please indicate where.

2.  The acoustics evidence which so impacted the HSCA final conclusion of conspiracy has been argued about for decades.  One can criticize it on many points of omission, that is the firing points chosen.  And many have argued the validity of the actual tape.  IMO, Don Thomas has done some  good work fending off these criticisms. And as I said, there is something else in the pipeline that will help Thomas.  I will comment on that when it arrives.

 

The acoustics evidence -- another rabbit hole well decorated.

Gaeton Fonzi and Vincent Salandria proved the fact of conspiracy beyond doubt when Fonzi (after collaborating with Salandria) ambushed Arlen Specter in the summer of 1966 with a demonstration of the clothing evidence, in Specter's Philly office.

The Warren Commission, The Truth, and Arlen Specter

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/WCTandAS.html

From Salandria's reflections on Fonzi's article:

https://ratical.org/ratville/JFK/VJS_WCTandAS.html

(quote on)

Before interviewing Specter, Gaeton came to me and I briefed him on how to conduct the prospective Specter interviews. In the interviews, Gaeton found that Specter “hemmed and hawed and mumbled in his attempt to explain critical points ...” He found Specter to be “evasive and anything but forthright, often stammeringly frustrated in his inability to provide rational explanations.” When he asked Specter about the exit wound from Kennedy in the single bullet theory: “Specter sputtered and backed, danced around a few impossible possibilities ...” When Gaeton asked Specter about the form-fitting custom shirt and the bullet holes in it, “Specter ... sat down at his desk, shook his head and softly said, ‘I don’t remember.’”

(quote off)

Listen to Specter stumble over the physical evidence starting at the 15:50 mark.

Specter's despair was the common reaction of both Lone Nutters and CT Pet Theorists when confronted with the clothing evidence -- they babble gibberish then STFU.

The HSCA was aware of this, but they weren't prepared to declare the BOH autopsy photo a fake, which the clothing evidence corroborates.

The HSCA wanted to get the message of conspiracy in their conclusions, so settled on the acoustic evidence.

This is a phony "debate" designed to further the cover-up.

Any researcher who ignores the primacy of physical evidence in a murder case is utterly incompetent.

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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5 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Since we're discussing it, does anyone have the photo of Lee with the rifle without a scope that supposedly showed-up in the Detroit press?

This article makes mention of it and has the photo... it is the backyard photo and when published in Life in had the scope but when published in Detroit Free Press it didn't have the scope.

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25 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

I  stopped as soon as I started. I copied Marinas testimony and I forgot how dumbfounded it makes me....

LHO: "Hi honey, I'm home! I just took a shot at General Walker!"

Reading stuff like this stops me in my tracks. I don't know what to do with it.

Obviously, that is not the real statement of LHO. Here is a line from Marina.


Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it. 

To be sure, however,  the list is not that long, although I obviously haven't read everything.

Marina, G. De M., possibly Mrs De M., throw in the Paine's just as speculation and that very well could be it.

Edith Whitworth saw a scope, or other rifle part. There may be another gunsmith in the testimony.


Isn't it funny how only those who apparently had CIA connections saw the rifle. Oh, and one frightened woman on the witness stand who could be intimidated and threatened.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Isn't it funny how only those who apparently had CIA connections saw the rifle. Oh, and one frightened woman on the witness stand who could be intimidated and threatened.

.... and who eventually profited from her position. Apparently, she received a lot of "sympathy" payments.

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Ok, Jeanne De M. Saw the rifle...

JENNER. You say---
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

 

Ruth Paine did not know about the rifle...........
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?
Mrs. PAINE - I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.

 

Mr. Paine didn't know about the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER - I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. PAINE - I did not,

That makes Marina and the De Mohrenschildts the only eyewitnesses to Lee's possession of the (a) rifle. That's all I am aware of anyway.

 
Edited by Michael Clark
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5 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Mr. HOLMES. Yes. They said, "We have a picture of you holding"--actually it came up before then in an interrogation of him about this rifle that came to this post office box.
They asked him, "Do you own a rifle?" He said, "No."

lol it's a bit more complicated than that when one looks through the testimony of Fritz and the FBI reports of Kelley, and from different interrogations...

For simplicity I will quote some relevant parts from Bugliosi's book Four Days In November as it is put as a 'conversation' (he does back it all up btw with references to the testimony and reports etc), I have simplified it further by not including the 'emotion' Bugliosi puts on how it is said. I put this up for informational purposes only and no real contentions on my part. ;)

Quote

(First interrogation circa 3pm onwards Friday)

Fritz: Do you own a rifle, Lee?
Oswald: No, but I saw Mr Truly, my supervisor at work, he had one at the Depository on Wednesday, I think it was, showing it to some people in his office on the first floor.
Fritz: Have you ever owned a rifle?
Oswald: Oh, I had one a good many years ago, it was a small rifle, a twenty-two or something, but I haven't owned one for a long time.

(after some further questioning)

Fritz: Ever own a rifle in Russia?
Oswald: You know you can't own a rifle in Russia, I had a shotgun over there. You can't own a rifle in Russia.

(Interrogation circa 8:30pm onwards Friday)

Fritz: Did you keep a rifle in Mrs Paine's garage in Irving?
Oswald: No.
Fritz: Didn't you bring one with you when you came back to Dallas from New Orleans.
Oswald: No I didn't.
Fritz: Well, the people out at the Paine residence say you did have a rifle.
Oswald: That isn't true.

(Interrogation circa 10:35am onwards Saturday)
(on being asked about storing things at the Paines's)

Fritz: What about a rifle?
Oswald: I didn't store a rifle there, I've already told you, I don't own a rifle.

(couple of questions later)

Fritz: Have you ever ordered any guns through the mail?
Oswald: I've never ordered guns, and I don't have any receipts for any guns.
Fritz: What about a rifle?
Oswald: I don't own a rifle, nor have I ever possessed a rifle. How many times do I have to tell you that.

(couple of questions later)

Fritz: Lee, if you never ordered a gun or purchased a gun like you say then where did you get the pistol you had in your possession at the time of your arrest?
Oswald: Oh, I bought that about seven months ago.
Fritz: Where?
Oswald: I'm not going to answer any more questions about the pistol or any guns until I've talked to a lawyer.

(Interrogation circa 6:25pm onwards Saturday)

Fritz: Now you told me yesterday that you'd never owned a gun.
Oswald: That's right I never owne a gun.
Fritz: Okay I want to show you something
(Shows Oswald an enlarged version of the 'backyard photo')
Fritz: How do you explain this?
Oswald: I'm not going to make any comment about that without the advice of an attorney.
Fritz: Well is that your face in the picture?
Oswald: I won't even admit that.
Fritz: That's not your face?
Oswald: No that's not even my face. That's a fake. I've been photographed a number of times since I got here - first by the Police, and now every time I get dreagged through that hallway. Someone has taken my picture and put my face on a different body.
Fritz: So that is your face?
Oswald: Yes, that's my face, but that's not my body. I know all about photography, I've worked with photography for a long time. Someone has photographed me and then superimposed a rifle in my hand and a gun in my pocket. That's a picture that someone has made. I've never seen that picture before in my life.
Fritz: We found this photo in Mrs Paine's garage, among your effects.
Oswald: That picture has never been in my possession.
Fritz: Wait a minute I'll show you one you probably have seen.
(Shows Oswald the original 'backyard photo')
Oswald: I never have seen that picture either. That picture's been reduced from the big one.
(Fritz asks how and OSwald goes in to a long argumnent about his knowledge of photos but also asks Fritz if the smaller photograph was made from the bigger one or vice versa)
Fritz: We made this enlargement from the snapshot we found in the search.
Oswald: Well I understand photography real well and at the proper time I will show that they're fakes. Right no I have nothing more to say about them.

(Interrogation circa 9:45am Sunday)
(Holmes asking Oswald about the po box)

Holmes: Did you ever receive a package in that box?
Oswald: What kind of package?
Holmes: Did you ever have a rifle shipped there?
Oswald: No I did not order any rifle!
Holmes: Ever order a rfile under another name?
Oswald denies that he ever ordered a rifle under his name or any other name, nor permitted anyone else to order a rifle to be recieved in his post office box...
Oswald: In fact I've never owned a rifle. I haven't practiced or shot a rifle since I was in the Marine Corps.
Fritz: You've never shot a rifle since your discharge?
Oswald: No. Well maybe a small bore .22 or something.
Fritz: You don't own a rifle?
Oswald: Absolutly not. How can I afford a rifle on my salary. I make $1.25 an hour. I can hardly feed myself on what I make.
Fritz: What about this? (points to 'backyard photo')
Oswald: I don't know what you are talking about.
Holmes returns to asking about the P.O. Box and a few questions later...
Holmes: Your application here lists Marina Oswald as a person entitled to recieve mail in the box.
Oswald: Well so what she was my wife I don't see anything wrong with that it could very well be I did put her name on the application.
Holmes: Your application also shows the name A J Hidell as another person entitled to receive mail in the box.
Oswald: I don't recall anything about that.
Secret Service Agent Kelley: Well isn't it a fact that when you were arrested you had an identification card with the name Hidell on it in your possession.
Oswald: Yeah that's right.
Kelley: How do you explain that.
Oswald: I don't explain it.
Holmes: Did you receive mail through box 2915 under any name other than Lee Oswald?
Oswald: Absolutly not.
Holmes: What about a package to an A J Hidell?
Oswald: No
Holmes: Did you order a gun in that name to come there?
Oswald: No absolutly not.
Holmes: If one had come under that name could this fellow HIdell have gotten it?
Oswald: Nobody got mail out of that box but me.

 

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