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Witnesses to LHO' posession of the MC rifle


Michael Clark
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I was going off-topic in another thread, so I am posting this thread to track persons who claimed to know that LHO owned a rifle, particularly the Manlicher Carcano, prior to 11-22-63

*** Edit. Here is a similar thread for reference

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/12296-did-oswald-ever-possess-any-rifle/

 

So far I have found Marina Oswald, and  Jeanne De Mohrenschildt.

George De Mohrenschildt DID NOT see the gun.

 

Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I think Oswald and I were standing near the window looking outside and I was asking him "How is your job" or "Are you making any money? Are you happy," some question of that type. All of a sudden Jeanne who was with Marina in the other room told me "Look, George, they have a gun here." And Marina opened the closet and showed it to Jeanne, a gun that belonged obviously to Oswald.
Mr. JENNER. This was a weapon? Did you go in and look?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't look at the gun. I was still standing. The closet was open. Jeanne was looking at it, at the gun, and I think she asked Marina "what is that" you see. That was the sight on the gun. "What is that? That looks like a telescopic sight." And Marina said "That crazy idiot is target shooting all the time." So frankly I thought it was ridiculous to shoot target shooting in Dallas, you see, right in town. I asked him "Why do you do that?" 

-----------------------
Mr. JENNER. Did you see the weapon?
Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I did not see the weapon.

 

Ok, Jeanne De M. Saw the rifle...

JENNER. You say---
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.

 

Ruth Paine did not know about the rifle...........
Mr. JENNER - Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?
Mrs. PAINE - I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.

 

Mr. Paine didn't know about the rifle.

Mr. LIEBELER - I now show you Commission Exhibit 139, which is a rifle that was found in the Texas School Book Depository Building, and ask you if you at any time ever saw this rifle prior to November 22, 1963?
Mr. PAINE: No I did not.

That makes Marina and Mrs. De Mohrenschildts the only eyewitnesses to Lee's possession of the (a) rifle. That's all I am aware of so far.

 

Edited by Michael Clark
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Just came across this in an article on the Daily Mail website:

Quote

Oswald was seen three times at the Sports Drome Rifle Range shooting range in Dallas but he did not take practice seriously, the owner told the Warren Commission.

Can't recall the owners name, but will try and find it for you so you can look in to it if you want. ;)

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I gleaned the following quote from this heavily trolled thread 

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?/topic/15525-do-we-all-agree-that-the-backyard-photos-are-fake/&page=7

 

David Joseph's wrote:

Very interesting thread - I've read thru the entire thing and was very happy to find reference to the Fritz notes but we're missing a piece of evidence

An observation

On page 9 it appears Fritz is trying to trap Oswald into saying he lived where Frtiz seems to know the photos were taken... NOT that he showed Oswald these photos ONLY that Frtiz is aware of their existence and knows what they look like... this is at 12:35pm on 11/23/63

and as we've already seen in the FBI report dated 2-3-64 Det Rose does not find the negatives until 3:20pm 11-23-63

Add this now, he books them into evidence at 4:30pm on 11-23-63 - when the 12 photos were printed is not yet determined

Faked or not (I am not touching that one in this post) I find it hard to understand how Fritz can be questioning/trapping Oswald regarding photos that had not been yet found, not yet known to be found, not yet known they would be found or even prints yet made so FRITZ himself would know what he was asking Oswald to describe.

I look forward to the discussion

DJ

 

Edited by Michael Clark
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The Oswald sighting at the Sports Drome was a case of mistaken identity.  The witnesses failed to agree on details.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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For the WC, the only undisputed eye-witnesses were Marina and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt.  (George DM heard Jeanne DM exclaim when she saw it, but he was too shocked to walk over to see it -- instead he made a nervous joke to LHO.)

After that, we have Ron Lewis in New Orleans during the summer of 1963, as he claims (1993) he saw LHO carrying it one day.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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17 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Got the WC the only undisputed eye-witnesses were Marina and Mrs DM.

After that, we have Ron Lewis in newOrleans during the summer of 1963, as he claims (1993).

Thank you, Paul. That's not enough to make a sandwich.

Making a sandwich is a term I have recently considered adopting in my JFK research. I have looked at this or that aspect of the case and I have mused that each piece of evidence is a slice of this or that or some lettuce or a swipe of mayo and, voila! A sandwich has been created. 

Yes, I have been amusing myself with that. I am delighted to find that the conspirators are going a little hungry with those morsels in regard to the rifle.

Paul, I am digging through old threads. I do not recall seeing your opinion on the authenticity of the BYP's. May I ask what your take is on those?

 

Cheers, Mike

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Mr. Jenner seemed intent on making a "scope-sandwich". You can't really have a a scope without a rifle.


Mr. JENNER. You got there. Now, just relax----
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I am trying to think hard, because every little fact could be important.

Mr. JENNER. But you are excited. Relax, and tell me everything that occurred, chronologically, as best you can on that occasion. You came to the door and either Marina or Oswald came to the door, and you and your husband went in the home?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. That is right.
Mr. JENNER. Then, go on. Tell me about it.
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. And I believe from what I remember George sat down on the sofa and started talking to Lee, and Marina was showing me the house that is why I said it looks like it was the first time, because why would she show me the house if I had been there before? Then we went to another room, and she opens the closet, and I see the gun standing there. I said, what is the gun doing over there?
Mr. JENNER. You say---
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A rifle.
Mr. JENNER. A rifle, in the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. In the closet, right in the beginning. It wasn't hidden or anything.
Mr. JENNER. Standing up on its butt?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. I show you Commission Exhibit 139. Is that the rifle that you saw? 

Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. It looks very much like it.
Mr. JENNER. And was it standing in the corner of the closet?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. You want me to show you how it was leaning? Make believe I open the closet door this way. And the rifle was leaning something like that.
Mr. JENNER. Right against the wall?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; and the closet was square. I said, what is this?
Mr. JENNER. It was this rifle?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I don't know. It looks very much like it, because something was dangling over it, and I didn't know what it was. This telescopic sight. Like we had a rifle with us on the road, we just had a smooth thing, nothing attached to it. And I saw something here.
Mr. JENNER. I say your attention was arrested, not only, because when the closet door was opened by Marina you saw the rifle in the closet--you saw a rifle?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. That surprised you, first?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of course.
Mr. JENNER. And then other things that arrested your attention, as I gather from what you said, is that you saw a telescopic sight?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; but I didn't know what it was.
Mr. JENNER. But your attention was arrested by that fact, because it was something new and strange to you?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes.
Mr. JENNER. You were accustomed to your husband having weapons?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, we had only one rifle on our trip. But my father was a collector of guns, that was his hobby.
Mr. JENNER. And being accustomed to rifles, to the extent you have indicated, you noticed this telescopic lens, because you had not seen a rifle with a telescopic lens on it before? Had you seen a rifle with the bolt action that this has?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I didn't ever know. I read it was bolt action but I would not know. Mr. JENNER. But you did notice this protrusion, the ball sticking out?
Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. No; I don't recall. The only thing there was something on it. It could be that it was the telescopic sight or something, but it was something on the rifle. It was not a smooth, plain rifle. This is for sure. 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

As I noted in the other thread, how could the rifle be in plain sight if Marina says it was buried at the time? (Reclaiming Parkland, p.105)

Either someone is lying or someone is mistaken.

 

I  would not even call this enough for a slice of bread, let alone a sandwich.

 

The De Mohresnschilds visited on the night before Easter. Easter was on the 14th in 63.

So their Saturday night visit was about 10PM on the 13th.


Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. I believe so; yes. The night before Easter.

 

Walker was shot at on Wednesday the 10th. Then Lee "buried" the rifle for a few days.

Mrs. OSWALD. Yes.
Mrs. OSWALD. No; the day Lee shot at Walker, he buried the rifle because when he came home and told me that he shot at General Walker and I asked him where the rifle was and he said he buried it.

Mr. LIEBELER. He shot at General Walker on April 10, which was on Wednesday.
*Mrs. OSWALD. Wednesday?
Mr. LIEBELER. Yes; it was on Wednesday.
Mrs. OSWALD. As I remember, it was the weekend--Saturday or Sunday when Lee brought the rifle back home.
Mr. LIEBELER. What weekend following the time he shot at General Walker?
*Mrs. OSWALD. The same weekend of the same week.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had he destroyed the notebook before he brought the rifle back?
Mrs. OSWALD. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. How long after he brought the rifle back did he destroy the book?
Mrs. OSWALD. He destroyed the book approximately an hour after he brought the rifle home.

So Lee "un-buried" the rifle on the same day as the De Mohrenschildt's visit.

 

Jim D., To be sure, I'm not eating the sandwich, I'm just looking at it.

Edited by Michael Clark
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21 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

Thank you, Paul. That's not enough to make a sandwich.

Making a sandwich is a term I have recently considered adopting in my JFK research. I have looked at this or that aspect of the case and I have mused that each piece of evidence is a slice of this or that or some lettuce or a swipe of mayo and, voila! A sandwich has been created. 

Yes, I have been amusing myself with that. I am delighted to find that the conspirators are going a little hungry with those morsels in regard to the rifle.

Paul, I am digging through old threads. I do not recall seeing your opinion on the authenticity of the BYP's. May I ask what your take is on those?

Cheers, Mike

Mike,

IMHO, the BYP's were created by LHO himself, at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, during the same period that he created the Fake ID for Alek James Hidell.

Therefore -- the BYP's are both Fake and Genuine.   This is the way that LHO himself planned it.

The Fake aspect of the BYP is that they use the body-double of Roscoe White.  This was demonstrated to my satisfaction by the late great Forum member, Jack White, a photography buff.

The Genuine aspect of the BYP is that they were deliberately made by LHO himself. 

IMHO, the motivation for creating the BYP was the same as the motivation for LHO ordering the Manlicher-Carcano rifle, namely, LHO was inspired by George DeMohrenschildt's hatred for General Walker.  

This is documented not only in George DM's testimony for the WC, but also in his 1978 manuscript, I'm A Patsy! I'm A Patsy!  as well as by the handwriting on the back of George's copy, stating: "Hunter of Fascists; ha ha!"

IMHO, the Militant newspaper lied to the WC when they said they never received a copy of the BYP.   Later evidence reveals that they had a copy.

Also, Michael Paine withheld from the WC that he had seen a BYP in LHO's Neeley Street address on April 2, 1963 -- but Michael Paine told Dan Rather that fact in 1993.

So -- in my opinion, Mike, the BYP are both Real (because LHO made them) and Fake (because LHO knew how to make Fake photographs to fool even experienced photographers and even the FBI).

LHO wanted to commemorate his murder of General Walker -- a fascist in his eyes, and in the eyes of George De Mohrenschildt.  However, George De Mohrenschildt didn't actually envision the death of General Walker, only the conversion of LHO from his quasi-Marxism.  So, after George DM heard his wife describe the rifle on Saturday 13 April 1963 inside LHO's Neeley Street apartment around 10 pm, the De Mohrenschildt's left the Oswalds that night, and never saw them again for the rest of their lives.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
typos
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2 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

As I noted in the other thread, how could the rifle be in plain sight if Marina says it was buried at the time? (Reclaiming Parkland, p.105)

Either someone is lying or someone is mistaken.

I  would not even call this enough for a slice of bread, let alone a sandwich.

James,

You're jumping to conclusions.  First, as Ruth Paine pointed out to me, the Russian word for "buried" also means "hidden."  So, there is the issue of the Russian translator in the case.

Secondly, Marina said that LHO "hid" his rifle on the night of April 10th.   George and Jeanne DM came to visit the Oswalds at about 10pm on the night of April 13th.   So, there is that gap of time that you're ignoring.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

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