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Is that ... (Gasp) ... Billy Lovelady Talking With Gloria Calvery on the Steps?


Thomas Graves
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It's a nice story but not supported by the film. I don't see Baker pushing a single person out of the way in the Couch film.

The same goes for this piece of Truly's testimony:

"Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you see happen? 
Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.
The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building."

Might have to get a photographic expert to make the final call on this one but the Couch film does not seem to support this story either. 

Edited by Robert Prudhomme
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10 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Ol' Gloria must have been a track star!

To start with you are assuming that

 

5 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Two independent witnesses on the 1st floor? Oh, you must mean Eddie Piper and Troy West. Let's see what Eddie Piper told the warren Commission, shall we Mr. Miller?

From the Warren Commission testimony of Eddie Piper, May 14, 1964:

"Mr. BALL. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor? 
Mr. PIPER. That's right.
Mr. BALL. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?

388


Mr. PIPER. Mr. Truly and some fellow---I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.
Mr. BALL. Some fellow; how was he dressed?
Mr. PIPER. Oh, I don't know.
Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.
Mr. BALL. A police officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on?
Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.
Mr. BALL. And what did Truly and this--some fellow do?
Mr. PIPER. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up on up the steps with this police officer--him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around--different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out."

LOL That's quite the witness you have there, Bill. Do you think Baker took his white helmet off on his way into the TSBD? :)

Now, let me see, I'll bet your other independent witness was Troy West, right?

Let's see what Mr. West had to say to the Warren Commission. From the Warren Commission testimony of Troy West, April 8, 1964:

" Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person you saw on the first floor after you - while you were eating your lunch? Someone came in the building? 
Mr. WEST - Yes; before I got through. The officers and things were coming in the front door. 
Mr. BELIN - Who was the first person or persons that you saw coming through there while you were eating your lunch? 
Mr. WEST - Well, that was the police. 
Mr. BELIN - A police officer? 
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir. 
Mr. BELIN - Anyone else? 
Mr. WEST - I guess it was a bunch of them, I guess, FBI men, and just a crowed of them coming in there. 
Mr. BELIN - Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you know Mr. Truly? 
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent. 
Mr. BELIN - Did you see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building? 
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police. 
Mr. BELIN - Was he one of the first people in, or did other people come in ahead of him, if you remember? 
Mr. WEST - Really, I just don't know. 
Mr. BELIN - That is okay if you don't remember. That is all I want you to say if you don't remember. Did you hear anyone yelling to let the elevator loose or anything like that? 
Mr. WEST - I can't remember. "

Hoo boy, I really hope I haven't used up all of your "independent" witnesses (what's the difference between an independent witness and a dependent witness?) because these two are beyond useless.

1 - Piper said it was a police officer, but didn't pay much attention to whether the officer had a helmet on or not. Piper does remember the officer hollering for the elevator, recalled Truly and the officer ascending the stairs together.

2 - West remembered a police officer first coming through the door and Truly entering with the police.

3 - Truly saw a motorcycle policeman (Baker) running for the stairs and followed him. Truly couldn't remember if he caught up to the policeman just he got to the door or as soon as he passed through it to the lobby. (Piper said Truly entered the building with a policeman) Truly said that he and the policeman immediately ran to the elevator and then proceeded up the stairs.

4 - The Darnell film shows Patrolman Baker running through the crowd and right past Truly. The same film captures Truly turning towards the stairs before panning away.

5 - Molina remembered seeing Truly enter the door to the front entrance of the building within 30 seconds of the shots.

Makes a bit more sense when put into the proper prospective and keep in mind that all time frames given were mere estimates.   :)

Edited by Bill Miller
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21 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

To start with you are assuming that

 

1 - Piper said it was a police officer, but didn't pay much attention to whether the officer had a helmet on or not. Piper does remember the officer hollering for the elevator, recalled Truly and the officer ascending the stairs together.

2 - West remembered a police officer first coming through the door and Truly entering with the police.

3 - Truly saw a motorcycle policeman running for the stairs and followed him. Truly couldn't remember if he caught up to the policeman just he got to the door or as soon as he passed through it to the lobby. (Piper said Truly entered the building with a policeman) Truly said that he and the policeman immediately ran to the elevator and then proceeded up the stairs.

4 - The Darnell film shows Patrolman Baker running through the crowd and right past Truly. The same film captures Truly turning towards the stairs before panning away.

5 - Molina remembered seeing Truly enter the door to the front entrance of the building.

 

1. Did Eddie Piper have a Seeing Eye Dog, Bill? Seriously, he couldn't even tell if the man was a police officer or not. Seriously, this witness does not support the official story.

2. West could barely remember who came in. Another useless witness.

3. Truly told all kinds of fantastic stories in his WC testimony that are not supported by the Couch film.

4. The Darnell film does NOT show Baker running past Truly, nor does it show Truly turning as Baker passes. You obviously don't even know the Couch film from the Darnell film. The Couch film shows Baker within about ten feet of the steps but pans away before he gets closer. However, Sandy Larsen's research shows that Baker is running parallel to the steps and not toward them.

5. Molina saw Truly enter the TSBD but, even after repeated questioning, did not see Baker enter the TSBD. Neither did Frazier, who was also standing directly in front of the door.

Let's see now, Molina never saw Baker, Frazier never saw Baker, Piper saw a man with Truly but didn't recognize a white helmeted police officer as a cop, and only grudgingly conceded the point under intense prompting by a lawyer, and West saw a group of police come in but would not ID a single cop with Truly.

Pretty sad, Bill; you have a whole bunch of nothing.

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52 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

It's a nice story but not supported by the film. I don't see Baker pushing a single person out of the way in the Couch film.

The same goes for this piece of Truly's testimony:

"Mr. BELIN. All right.
Then what did you see happen? 
Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.
The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building."

Might have to get a photographic expert to make the final call on this one but the Couch film does not seem to support this story either. 

It's all a matter of perception in my view. Dave Wiegman started filming as his car rounded the corner and when his shaky film shows the view down the street and even before the limo has entered the Underpass - the crowd along Elm Street have dispersed.

Wieg3_zpsmrpak0qf.jpg

The street curves and any object going away from someone will appear to not be moving when its hardly moving. Attempting to pick knat dung out of pepper does not make Truly being dishonest about what he thought he saw. Studies have shown that two people can witness the same event and have a different memory of it based on how each one perceived it.

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21 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

It's all a matter of perception in my view. Dave Wiegman started filming as his car rounded the corner and when his shaky film shows the view down the street and even before the limo has entered the Underpass - the crowd along Elm Street have dispersed.

Wieg3_zpsmrpak0qf.jpg

The street curves and any object going away from someone will appear to not be moving when its hardly moving. Attempting to pick knat dung out of pepper does not make Truly being dishonest about what he thought he saw. Studies have shown that two people can witness the same event and have a different memory of it based on how each one perceived it.

Do you see anyone lying on the pavement or concrete in front of the TSBD in the Couch film?

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Truly is standing all by himself near the bottom of the TSBD steps while a small group of people make their way in an orderly fashion up the TSBD steps. Where is this panicky mob that bore him back to the steps and separated him from Ochus Campbell?

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5 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

1. Did Eddie Piper have a Seeing Eye Dog, Bill? Seriously, he couldn't even tell if the man was a police officer or not. Seriously, this witness does not support the official story.

Mr. BALL. Was he an officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; I believe he was an officer.
Mr. BALL. A police officer?
Mr. PIPER. Yes; a police officer.
Mr. BALL. Did he have a white helmet on?
Mr. PIPER. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

2. West could barely remember who came in. Another useless witness.

Mr. BELIN - Did you see Roy Truly coming in at all that time? Do you know Mr. Truly? 
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; that is the boss, the superintendent. 
Mr. BELIN - Did you see him, do you remember, while you were eating your lunch, come in the building? 
Mr. WEST - Yes, sir; I think he came in with the police. 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

3. Truly told all kinds of fantastic stories in his WC testimony that are not supported by the Couch film.

"perception"

per·cep·tion
pərˈsepSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: perception; plural noun: perceptions
  1. the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses.
    "the normal limits to human perception"
    a way of regarding, understanding, or interpreting something; a mental impression.
     
     
       
     
     
       
5 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

4. The Darnell film does NOT show Baker running past Truly, nor does it show Truly turning as Baker passes. You obviously don't even know the Couch film from the Darnell film.

very%20slow%20darnell%20edited_bm1_zpsiz

Not sure what world you are talking from, but in mine this film shows Truly just to our right of the man in white who is wearing the cowboy hat.  This part of the Darnell film shows Patrolman Baker running by Truly who then turns almost 180* and begins to move towards the stairs before going off-camera.

 

 

5 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

5. Molina saw Truly enter the TSBD but, even after repeated questioning, did not see Baker enter the TSBD. Neither did Frazier, who was also standing directly in front of the door.

Frazier said he could have missed Baker go by as his attention

Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

 

5 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Pretty sad, Bill; you have a whole bunch of nothing.

60_zpskbpgi7eb.gif     What ever you say.

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24 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Truly is standing all by himself near the bottom of the TSBD steps while a small group of people make their way in an orderly fashion up the TSBD steps. Where is this panicky mob that bore him back to the steps and separated him from Ochus Campbell?

There is no footage showing him moving from where he was next to Cambell to where we eventually see him near the stairs. That footage is missing. So like I have said - it all depends on how Truly perceived things. Perhaps if we could see film of how Truly got from point A to point B, then a better understanding of what he said and why he said it may be learned. After all, those people in Darnell around the extension appear to be coming from Elm Street, as well as people near and on the steps. Perhaps these are part of the people Truly spoke about.

Edited by Bill Miller
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1 hour ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

5. Molina saw Truly enter the TSBD but, even after repeated questioning, did not see Baker enter the TSBD.

Molina didn't hear anyone say the President had been shot either, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen and he just missed it or had forgotten. The man standing next to him said ....

Mr. BALL - And before you went back into the Building no police officer came up the steps and into the building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.
Mr. BALL - Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.
Mr. BALL - Do you know who it was who told you that?
Mr. FRAZIER - Sir?
Mr. BALL - Do you know who the girl was who told you that?
Mr. FRAZIER - She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several people.

 

But of course maybe by then Molina had already gone inside and that is where Calvery spoke to him.

Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl.
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent

 

Edited by Bill Miller
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23 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

It's all a matter of perception in my view. Dave Wiegman started filming as his car rounded the corner and when his shaky film shows the view down the street and even before the limo has entered the Underpass - the crowd along Elm Street have dispersed.

Wieg3_zpsmrpak0qf.jpg

The street curves and any object going away from someone will appear to not be moving when its hardly moving. Attempting to pick knat dung out of pepper does not make Truly being dishonest about what he thought he saw. Studies have shown that two people can witness the same event and have a different memory of it based on how each one perceived it.

No, it's a matter of Truly lying. There just weren't enough people standing in front of the TSBD to make a "mob" capable of doing what he described. Did you happen to notice, in the Couch film, that most of the spectators in front of the TSBD entrance have not moved very far from their positions prior to the assassination?

Truly had to come up with a good story to explain why he left Ochus Campbell and placed himself at the foot of the TSBD steps. His task was to read Baker's mind telepathically and deduce that Baker wanted to go to the roof of the TSBD. Everyone had their part to play.

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5 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

No, it's a matter of Truly lying. There just weren't enough people standing in front of the TSBD to make a "mob" capable of doing what he described. Did you happen to notice, in the Couch film, that most of the spectators in front of the TSBD entrance have not moved very far from their positions prior to the assassination?

Truly had to come up with a good story to explain why he left Ochus Campbell and placed himself at the foot of the TSBD steps. His task was to read Baker's mind telepathically and deduce that Baker wanted to go to the roof of the TSBD. Everyone had their part to play.

Truly was standing out in the intersection to which there is no film showing what happened at the moment that would cause Truly to leave that spot and move to the extension in front of the stairs leading into the TSBD. But personally I believe you read too much into what Truly said so to feed the need for something conspiratorial to feed your theory. Truly said a sudden panicked surge back from the people who had congealed around him (blue text below) is what caused him to move closer to the building. Furthermore, the start of Baker's run upon getting off his bike isn't captured on film to know if he did or did not move people out of his way when he entered the crowd, nor is there film of Baker going up the stairs to know if he pushed people aside at that time as well. To say otherwise takes a bit of telepathic deducing on your part from where I sit.   :)

Mr. TRULY. I heard an explosion, which I thought was a toy cannon or a loud firecracker from west of the building. Nothing happened at this first explosion. Everything was frozen. And immediately after two more explosions, which I realized that I thought was a gun, a rifle of some kind.
The President's--I saw the President's car swerve to the left and stop somewheres down in this area. It is misleading here. And that is the last I saw of his ear, because this crowd, when the third shot rang out--there was a large crowd all along this abutment here, this little wall, and there was some around us in front--they began screaming and falling to the ground. And the people in front of myself and Mr. Campbell surged back, either in terror or panic. They must have seen this thing. I became separated from Mr. Campbell. They just practically bore me back to the first step on the entrance of our building.
Mr. BELIN. When you saw the President's car seem to stop, how long did it appear to stop?
Mr. TRULY. It would be hard to say over a second or two or something like that. I didn't see I just saw it stop. I don't know. I didn't see it start up.
Mr. BELIN. Then you stopped looking at it, or you were distracted by something else?
Mr. TRULY. Yes. The crowd in front of me kind of congealed around me and bore me back through weight of numbers, and I lost sight of it.
I think there were a lot of people trying to get out of the way of something. They didn't know what.

Mr. BELIN. Then what did you do or see?
Mr. TRULY. I heard a policeman in this area along here make a remark, "Oh, goddam," or something like that. I just remember that. It wasn't a motorcycle policeman. It was one of the Dallas policeman, I think-- words to that effect.
I wouldn't know him. I just remember there was a policeman standing along in this area about 7, 8, or 10 feet from me.
But as I came back here, and everybody. was screaming and hollering, just moments later-I saw a young motorcycle policeman run up to the building, up the steps to the entrance of our building. He ran right by me. And he was pushing people out of the way. He pushed a number of people out of the way before he got to me. I saw him coming through, I believe. As he ran up the stairway--I mean up the steps, I was almost to the steps, I ran up and caught up with him. I believe I caught up with him inside the lobby of the building, or possibly the front steps. I don't remember that close. But I remember it occurred to me that this man wants on top of the building. He doesn't know the plan of the floor. And-that is-that just pepped in my mind, and I ran in with him. As we got in the lobby, almost on the inside of the first floor, this policeman asked me where the stairway is. And I said, "This way". And I ran diagonally across to the northwest corner of the building.

Edited by Bill Miller
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7 hours ago, Bill Miller said:

very%20slow%20darnell%20edited_bm1_zpsiz


Single step through this gif. Identify and put a dot at each place where Baker's toe is in contact with the pavement.

Connect the dots.

You will prove to yourself that Baker was running toward the postal boxes on the right side of the TSBD entrance. His intention wasn't to enter the TSBD.

At Baker's final step that we can observe, we see his profile (side view). In contrast we see the rear ends of everybody else headed for the sidewalk that runs along the front of the TSBD. This proves that Baker is, at that point, not running toward the sidewalk. He's running almost parallel to it.

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40 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

At Baker's final step that we can observe, we see his profile (side view). In contrast we see the rear ends of everybody else headed for the sidewalk that runs along the front of the TSBD. This proves that Baker is, at that point, not running toward the sidewalk. He's running almost parallel to it.

Your observation is flawed and has already been addressed. Baker's shadow is seen scaling the vertical wall of the curb just before the camera pans away and where it hits the curb appears to be well before the mailboxes.

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21 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

" Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary? 
Mr. MOLINA. Yes. 
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up? 
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. 
Mr. BALL. What did she say? 
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent."

Would you be so good, Mr. Miller, as to indicate where Molina stated that Calvery entered the TSBD "about 30 seconds following the shots"?

 

Sure thing .... It was Linda Zambanini that laid this all out in the past. I believe you were privy to her post at that time ....

 

" Now that estimate of mine of her being in the lobby and Molina seeing her come in ~ 20-30 seconds after the shots, was probably compounded by Molina's testimony where he said:

Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside. [granted he didn't see Baker enter]
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards.
[by this I assumed he then went in the lobby after that 20-30 secs]
Mr. BALL. Had somebody come up and said the President was shot before
you saw Truly go in?
Mr. MOLINA. No.
Mr. BALL. Do you know a girl named Gloria Calvary?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. [if Truly came in 20-30 secs after the shots as Molina says above, and we know Calvery was not far behind him - or Baker and him - and Molina says he SAW her "come in" - then I assumed, pretty logically I think, that Molina had to have followed Truly in, and he was then almost immediately followed in by Calvery. He says he saw her come in so he had to have gone in just after Truly and before her. Does that make sense? ]
Mr. BALL. What did she say?
Mr. MOLINA. She said "Oh, my God, Joe, he's been shot." They were both horrified. I said "Are you sure he was shot?" She said "Oh, Joe ,I'm sure. I saw his hair fly up and I'm sure he was shot" something to that extent.

Ok so, point well taken that we don't know exactly when he was in the lobby, but she being hot on Baker's heels she had to have been in the lobby too maybe 5-10 sec later - where Molina said he saw her "come in" . (I'm aware you don't believe Baker even went up the steps then...)

As for the "other girl" he said she was "with" - that could've been Molina's assumption. She could have been any woman who came up the steps around that same time as Gloria and entered "with her". We see several women going up the steps in Darnell it could easily have been one of them. As I think it was Tommy pointed out, it doesn't mean they had to be pals or have run together from down near the Stemmons sign. We know that didn't happen - we only see one woman running behind Baker. And Molina goes on to say both of them were horrified, as if they shared the moment "together". They may have both been horrified - who wouldn't be - but that doesn't mean they were standing next to each other when JFK was shot - it was a collective horror. "

I agree with what Linda said.    :)

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" Mr. BALL. Did Gloria come up?
Ms.. MOLINA. Yes, she came. I was in the lobby standing there and she came in with this other girl. [if Truly came in 20-30 secs after the shots as Molina says above, and we know Calvery was not far behind him - or Baker and him - and Molina says he SAW her "come in" - then I assumed, pretty logically I think, that Molina had to have followed Truly in, and he was then almost immediately followed in by Calvery. He says he saw her come in so he had to have gone in just after Truly and before her. Does that make sense? ] "

Bill

Are you by any chance related to a person by the name of Albert Doyle? He's the fellow James booted from this forum for posting a stream of non-stop nonsense.

No, it does not make any sense at all.

How do you know Calvery was not far behind Baker? You don't. There is nothing whatsoever to support your assumption.

How do you know Molina followed Truly in to the entryway? You don't. There is nothing whatsoever to support your assumption.

How do you know Moina was immediately followed in by Calvery? You don't. There is nothing whatsoever to support your assumption.

"He says he saw her come in so he had to have gone in just after Truly and before her. Does that make sense?" That is a possibility. HOWEVER, what is the time frame involved? Did Calvery come in seconds after Molina, or minutes?

Making assumptions is a waste of everyone's time, Bill, and only proves that you have a vivid imagination. Before you respond again, might I recommend you find some actual evidence to support your theories?

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