Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said: ...But yeah, anyway, I can assure you that I didn't 'fall for it'. Regards P.S. let me know the name of the 7 you have...just in case I have missed one of them. Alistair, OK, I accept your explanation. I was feeling defensive, obviously. Anyway, the names of the seven I have are: 1. Marina Oswald 2. Marguerite Oswald 3. Alexander Kleinlerer 4. Declan & Katarina Ford 5. George & Jeanne DeMohrenschildt 6. Elena Hall 7. George Bouhe Yes, two of my selections are actually couples, so some sticklers would count that as nine -- but I grouped the married couples together. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) Paul, do you ever get the message? I guess not. RCD just took you over the coals with your alleged nineteen. Which he deflated down to one. And that one alleged witness did not testify before the commission, either before the body or by deposition. Further, others have brought up further questions about this witness. As has Tom Scully over at DPF. Now, you assemble a new list. But like the first time, you do not quote the testimony. RCD did more than give us footnotes, he gave us the testimony. Edited February 27, 2017 by James DiEugenio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 The fourth witness on my list of seven is a married couple -- Declan and Katarina Ford, who were in their early 40's. Here is the testimony of Declan Ford: Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first meet the Oswalds? Mr. FORD. In 1962, and I think it was in August of 1962, I am not sure of the exact date. Mr. LIEBELER. Would you tell us the circumstances of the meeting? Mr. FORD. I was a guest at the house of some friends, the Mellers, and the Oswalds had been there for lunch, and we came over after lunch to have cocktails and to meet Lee and Marina Oswald. Mr. LIEBELER. Who was there at that time? Mr. FORD. Mr. Meller and his wife, Anna Meller, George Bouhe, my wife and myself, Marina and Lee Oswald, and I can't remember for sure if anybody else... Mr. LIEBELER. Did Mrs. Oswald have any bruises on her at that time? Mr. FORD. Yes, she did. On her face. Mr. LIEBELER. On her face. Was there any conversation about that? Mr. FORD. Not directly with me... Mr. LIEBELER. When was the next time that you had any contact with Oswald? Mr. FORD. The next time I saw him was the night I drove Marina from our house to another friend's house, Mr. Frank Ray's house. She had been staying at our house for about a week and she had been separated from him... Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any conversations with the Rays that evening while you were taking Marina over there about the difficulties that the Oswalds had in their marriage? ... Mr. FORD. I don't believe I had any discussion with either Mr. or Mrs. Ray about specifically the difficulties in their marriage between Marina and Lee Oswald. The only thing I remember is frankly saying something to the effect, well, he is really a screwy nut, or something, he can't find ways to work, something to that effect. I have not discussed their personal problems. But I have discussed it with my wife about it prior to that and after that and also after the assassination and it was my understanding when she left her husband it was because he had beat her up. And here is the testimony of Katarina Ford: Mr. LIEBELER. What was the next contact then that you had with the Oswalds? Mrs. FORD. I think it must have been in late October or the first part of November when Mr. Bouhe called me and said that Marina made a call to Anna Meller and told her she is leaving her husband because of she can't stand the beating and treatment any longer from Lee Oswald...At the time at the party I remember seeing Marina with bruises on her face... Mr. LIEBELER. This was the first time you saw her? Mrs. FORD. That is right, the first time I saw her I did see bruises on her face... Although some would count those two as two separate witnesses -- for convenience I'll count this married couple as one witness. Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James DiEugenio Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 You still don't get it do you. No comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said: Paul, do you ever get the message? I guess not. RCD just took you over the coals with your alleged nineteen. Which he deflated down to one. And that one alleged witness did not testify before the commission, either before the body or by deposition. Further, others have brought up further questions about this witness. As has Tom Scully over at DPF. Now, you assemble a new list. But like the first time, you do not quote the testimony. RCD did more than give us footnotes, he gave us the testimony. James, You misread all those posts from the contest between Robert Charles Dunne and myself all those years ago. I completely won that debate. Tom Scully, by the way, was dismissed from this Forum because as a Moderator he found it difficult to maintain objectivity -- not just with regard to me, but with regard to many others. There is no new list or old list of Marina-beating witnesses. My list has never changed. IIRC (because that thread was deleted after I won the debate) what I said all those years ago was that if we add the EAR-WITNESSES to the EYE-WITNESSES then we would have 19 total. Because there really was a lot of gossip going around the Russian Expatriate community in the Dallas and Fort Worth area about Marina and Lee. This was because Marina Oswald was complaining loudly and bitterly that Lee Harvey Oswald was beating her -- and George Bouhe led the charge for volunteers of Russian families to take Marina into their homes for one or two weeks at a time. There were many Russian homes that took Marina in during October and November 1962. Some of these people actually saw the bruises on Marina's face. Others only heard about it. If we count them all then we get 19, IIRC. If we only count the EYE-WITNESSES then we can reduce the number to 7 (including two couples counted as one each). Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) The fifth witness on my list of seven is another married couple -- George and Jeanne De Mohrenschildt, who were in their late 40's. Here is the testimony of George De Mohrenschildt Mr. JENNER. All right, tell us the circumstances -- Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Of how we took her away? Mr. JENNER. And why. Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, George Bouhe, started telling me that, "George, Lee is beating Marina. I saw her with a black eye and she was crying, and she tried to run away from the house. It is outrageous." ...And Jeanne and I said, let's go and see what is going on George Bouhe gave me their address...So we drove up there to that apartment, which was on the ground floor, and indeed Marina had a black eye. And so either my wife or I told Lee, "Listen, you cannot do things like this." ... Mr. JENNER. And when you entered that apartment on the first floor, you observed that she had a black eye? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. A black eye, and scratched face, and so on and so forth. Mr. JENNER. Did you inquire about it? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes. Mr. JENNER. What did she say? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. She said, "He has been beating me." ...So I said, "You cannot stand for that. You shouldn't let him beat you." And she said, "Well, I guess I should get away from him." ... Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. ...But it was because of his brutality to her...I told him (Lee) he should not do things like that, and he said, "It is my business" -- that is one of the few times that he was a little bit uppity with me...Anyway, on Sunday, instead of playing tennis, we drove to Marina's place early in the morning and told Oswald that we are going to take her away from him, and the baby also, and we are going to take her to Mr. and Mrs. Meller...And Lee said, "By God, you are not going to do it. I will tear all her dresses and I will break all the baby things." And I got very mad this time. But Jeanne, my wife, started explaining to him patiently that it is not going to help him any--"Do you love your wife?" He said yes. And she said, "If you want your wife back some time, you better behave." I said, "If you don't behave, I will call the police." ...Well, he said, "I will get even with you." I said, "You will get even with me?" I got a little bit more mad, and I said, "I am going to take Marina anyway." So...I started carrying the things out of the house. And Lee did not interfere with me. Of course, he was small, you know, and he was a rather puny individual. After a little while he helped. me to carry the things out. He completely changed his mind. Mr. JENNER. He submitted to the inevitable? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. He submitted to the inevitable, and helped me to carry things. And we cleaned that house completely... Mr. JENNER. Did you form an impression of him, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, as to his reliability in a different sense now -- that is, whether he was reasonably mentally stable or given to violent surges of anger or lack of control of himself? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. ...The fact that we took his wife away from him, you know, was the result of his outbursts and his threats to his wife. Mr. JENNER. What kind of threats? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, that he will beat the bell out of her...Marina said that he would kill her, that he will beat her sometime so hard that he will kill her. So that is the reason we went out there and said -- well, let's save that poor woman. Mr. JENNER. Where were they living then? Mr. De MOHRENSCHILDT. They were living then at...Elsbeth... Now, here is the testimony of Jeanne De Mohrenschildt: Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Well, you see, he mistreated his wife physically. We saw her with a black eye once. Mr. JENNER. And did you talk to him and to her about it? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Yes; we did. I called him just like our own kids, and set them down, and I said, "Listen, you have to grow up, you cannot live like that. This is not a country that permits such things to happen. If you love each other, behave. If you cannot live with each other peacefully, without all this awful behavior, you should separate, and see, maybe you really don't love each other." Marina was, of course, afraid she will be left all alone, if she separate from Oswald--what is she going to do? She doesn't know the language, she had nobody to turn to. I understand they didn't get along with Oswald's family. Mr. JENNER. And where did you take Marina and June? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. We took Marina and June to the house of Meller. Mr. JENNER. Anna Meller? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Anna Meller, yes. Very poor people--they put the baby's crib right in the dining room and everything. That is how nice people were, trying to help her. That was supposed to be temporary until we find another place where she could live with somebody for 2 or 3 months. We were trying to put her with Ford, with Declan Ford's wife, because she had a big house, and she had a newborn baby. But she is not a very easygoing person. She refused. I was furious with her that she refused, because she really could take Marina very nicely. And I believe finally she was talked into it, and she had Marina maybe for a little while with her. I don't know. I am not sure. Mr. JENNER. In October or November? Mrs. De MOHRENSCHILDT. Maybe, yes. I don't even know. Although some would count those two as two separate witnesses -- for convenience I'll count this married couple as one witness. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Brancato Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Any wet blanket takers now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Clark Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 20 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said: James, You misread all those posts ---------- -Because there really was a lot of gossip going around the Russian Expatriate community in the Dallas and Fort Worth area about Marina and Lee. -Gossip can spread like a plague, and I would imagine, in the era of housewives, such a disease was for more rampant and communicable. - This was because Marina Oswald was complaining loudly and bitterly that Lee Harvey Oswald was beating her. -I am seeing her making excused and hiding what may have been one event, possibly with a door -- and George Bouhe led the charge for volunteers of Russian families to take Marina into their homes for one or two weeks at a time. There were many Russian homes that took Marina in during October and November 1962. -In the course of two months I don't see room for "many" families to take her in for "one or two weeks at a time. In the course of two months this should be able to broken down. -Some of these people actually saw the bruises on Marina's face. Others only heard about it. If we count them all then we get 19, IIRC. If we only count the EYE-WITNESSES then we can reduce the number to 7 (including two couples counted as one each). -You claim to have shown that perhaps seven people saw an injury, that might have been an accident. To be sure, there was a story of physical abuse, it probably spread to hundreds. Regards, --Paul Trejo LHO was accused of many things. This could very well be one of those quick-mart sandwiches which, after you buy it, get back on the road, and unwrap it, proves to have only a lame slice of bologna in it. I'm not buying the sandwich. Cheers, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 The sixth witness on my list of seven eye-witnesses is Elena Hall, 38, a divorcee in Fort Worth. Here is her sworn, eye-witness testimony: Mr. LIEBELER. Did you then visit the Oswald's apartment on Elsbeth at any time in Dallas? Mrs. HALL. Yes; one time we went. First time on Christmas Day. She borrowed my sewing machine, and on the first day of Christmas I bought a little toy for the baby and we went to visit them… Mr. LIEBELER. Did you know whether or not Marina used the sewing machine? Mrs. HALL. Yes…She didn't make any clothes. But the clothes that friends of mine gave to her, lots of clothes, she was trying to alter them… Mr. LIEBELER. About the time that Marina lived in your house, did you understand that the Oswalds were having any marital difficulties? Mrs. HALL. Well, I think she was stubborn, and he was just cruel to her, and they would argue for nothing, just nothing. And he would beat her all the time. Mr. LIEBELER. Beat her? Mrs. HALL. Oh, yes. In fact, first time when she came to my house with George Bouhe, she had black and blue over half of her face and I didn't ask at that time, but after she moved in my house, I said, Marina, what was on your face? And she told me that he beat her. Mr. LIEBELER. The first time that Marina came to your house, can you remember exactly when that was? Mrs. HALL. In July. Sometime in July. Mr. LIEBELER. And you noticed even in July that she had been bruised, is that correct? Mrs. HALL. Yes. This sworn testimony describes an eye-witness event. Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) The seventh of my list of seven eye-witnesses to bruises on Marina's face is George Bouhe, 59, who was a charity volunteer for the Russian Orthodox Church in Dallas. Mr. LIEBELER. Do you think she confided in Anna Ray to any extent? Mr. BOUHE. Could have, although I was not present, but they had long sessions together, just girls. Mr. LIEBELER. You spoke about these parties with Mrs. Ford and Anna Meller and Anna Ray. Mr. BOUHE. Well, the only time I have been bringing that up is when I saw or heard that she had a black eye. Mr. LIEBELER. When did you see that? Mr. BOUHE. I would say within the first 2 weeks of September. One Saturday several of us arrived at their house. Mr. LIEBELER. At Oswald's house? Mr. BOUHE. Yes. Mr. LIEBELER. Where was that house located at that time? Mr. BOUHE. On Mercedes Street. Mr. LIEBELER. In Fort Worth? Mr. BOUHE. Yes; and she had a black eye. And not thinking about anything unfortunate, I said: "Well, did you run into a bathroom door?" Marina said, "Oh, no, he hit me." Mr. LIEBELER. Was Oswald there at that time? Mr. BOUHE. No... Mr. LIEBELER. She didn't tell you the details though at that time? Mr. BOUHE. No. Mr. LIEBELER. You said that you noticed another black eye. Did you see Marina with bruises on her at a time prior to this time in September? Mr. BOUHE. Yes... That, then, covers my seven eye-witnesses to bruises on Marina's face, who distinctly linked these bruises to beatings by Lee Harvey Oswald. There were others in the Russian Expatriate community in Dallas and Fort Worth, who were asked to help support Marina Oswald during this trying ordeal, who only heard about the beatings, and testify that these accounts were widespread in the Russian Expatriate community. Adding the hearsay testimony, they could total 19. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited February 27, 2017 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 13 hours ago, Michael Walton said: There was one post where SL and I debated whether the guy on the steps had his arms crossed or was clapping. It's obvious to *anyone* that he's clapping but not to SL. Then I guess he saw the light and posted one of those "stick your tongue out" icons. I guess that was his way of acknowledging he was wrong. I'm pretty sure you're confusing me with someone else. BTW, just in case you think this emoticon represents sticking ones tongue out in disrespect... it really means you're saying something with a chuckle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 Jus throwing this out there... On 26/02/2017 at 2:02 AM, Paul Brancato said: Wet blanket time - if Oswald didn't assassinate JFK who cares? Given the way the WC went about questioning people, and knowing they were trying to convict Oswald in absentia, all testimony portraying Oswald as prone to violence, whether it's hitting Marina, shooting at Walker, threatening Nixon, hijacking a plane, is worth taking with a heavy dose of skepticism. Skepticism is a good thing indeed. (see the 'hijacking a plane' and 'threatening Nixon', I don't buy that stuff for one second. See the 'shooting at Walker', I'm undecided on it. See the 'prone to violence', I have read plenty of 'evidence' that points that way) With regards to the 'domestic abuse' (whether physical or not), I am not seeing any link between that and the thought of making Oswald guilty of assassinating JFK. Despite the gossip that no doubt took place and the lack of 'first hand witnesses' (of which there appears only to be one), there were a number of 'second hand witnesses' who saw bruises, but it also goes beyond the physical side of things. Even if there were only a limited number of times that there was anything 'physical', there is certainly a lot more pointing to 'problems' in their marriage. Enough to surely point towards Oswald being at best a pittable husband and at worst 'guilty' of domestic abuse... ... even taking the '3rd hand' (or more) 'witnesses' with a heavy does of skepticism. There's no smoke without fire. Anyway, There is also no real correlation between all those who make mention of Oswald being 'prone to violence' and the WC trying to 'convict Oswald in absentia'... To illustrate what I am meaning, here is some of the testimony from M F Tobias... Despite the best efforts of Mr Jenner wanting to make a case that Oswald could have used a rifle there, Tobias doesn't budge an inch. Quote Mr. JENNER. I asked Mrs. Tobias, and I'm going to ask you this, because you are more accustomed to this sort of thing. Could a man stand in that patio and dry sight a firearm or a weapon and not be noticed? Mr. TOBIAS. In the summertime yes; because along here is shrubbery and along here is shrubbery. [Indicating.] <snip> Mr. JENNER. So, somebody could stand behind the tree, and dry sight a rifle and not be seen from Elsbeth Street? Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. <snip> Mr. JENNER. Could a man dry sighting a weapon, holding a rifle outside that rear entrance, do so without being detected and without people noticing it? Mr. TOBIAS. Well, you've got the streets on Elsbeth and people in that house might see it, because her roomers are right there by that door. Mr. JENNER. Now, people who are passing by or looking out of your window or looking out from this rooming house could see that? Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Did anybody ever say anything to you about Oswald having a weapon? Mr. TOBIAS. No. Mr. JENNER. A firearm? Mr. TOBIAS. No. Mr. JENNER. Using it--sighting it? Mr. TOBIAS. No. Mr. JENNER. Was there ever an occasion when you noticed that there had been brought near the premises or on it or in his possession a package? Mr. TOBIAS. No; I never did see it because he always used his back door and I was over on the other side. Mr. JENNER. If you will pardon me--a package that to you you would recognize as a rifle? Mr. TOBIAS. No. Mr. JENNER. That possibly was a rifle? Mr. TOBIAS. No. Mr. JENNER. Or, a bunch of curtain rods or window shades or something of that nature? Mr. TOBIAS. No. No; I've never seen nothing like that. I don't even remember the parcel post man ever leaving anything there--a package or anything. I never was in his apartment but twice, I don't think, while he lived there. I went in there with the exterminators twice, once a month, and we exterminated the place for cockroaches, that's one thing we don't like around here, and, of course, I had to get her permission to go in there. That speaks highly to the credibility of Tobias in my opinion. Jenner seems to be pushing him to say that Oswald had a rifle, but Tobias is more than clear that neither him nor anyone else there saw any such thing. The credibility of Tobias is important when it comes to the next relevant part... Quote Mr. JENNER. But you did see Marina in and around your apartment and you saw her out in the walk, walking the baby and she was friendly, was she? Mr. TOBIAS. She was always friendly. Mr. JENNER. A very nice girl? Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. Mr. JENNER. Clean and neat? Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. Mr. JENNER. And attended to her child? Mr. TOBIAS. Well, she took care of her baby, that's for sure, and it was always clean. Mr. JENNER. And she attempted to be pleasant and talk to you people to the limited extent she was able to do, is that a fair statement? Mr. TOBIAS. I didn't hear you. Mr. JENNER. I mean, she would say a few words to you--she had a limited command of English? Mr. TOBIAS. That's right. Mr. JENNER. But you tried to communicate with her and she with you? Mr. TOBIAS. Yes. Mr. JENNER. At least to a limited extent? Mr. TOBIAS. Well, I talked to her and, of course, she wouldn't say nothing back and Oswald, I tried to talk to him several times and all I could get of him was a grunt. He was a kind of a guy that wouldn't talk to you at all. Mr. JENNER. Is that right? Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; and he was a peculiar duck. Mr. JENNER. How did your other tenants feel toward Oswald? Mr. TOBIAS. Well, they didn't like it. Mr. JENNER. They didn't like what? Mr. TOBIAS. They didn't like the way he beat her all the time. Mr. JENNER. They complained to you that he manhandled her? Mr. TOBIAS. Yes; there was one man that came over there one night and he told me, he said, "I think that man over there is going to kill that girl," and I said, "I can't do a darn thing about it." I says, "That's domestic troubles and I don't jump into a man and a woman's fighting," which I don't. If he hurts her bad, then I'll have to take it up, but not until, so he knocked a window out of the back door. Tobias may not have been a first hand witness to the 'domestic troubles', perhaps not even a second hand witness, but nevertheless he has no reason to just 'make it up'. Yeah maybe the WC were trying to 'convict Oswald in absentia', but they didn't do a great job of doing that. I used the example of Tobias there, but there are plenty of other ones also who don't fall for the WC's attempts to 'convict' Oswald. 4 hours ago, Michael Clark said: -Gossip can spread like a plague, and I would imagine, in the era of housewives, such a disease was for more rampant and communicable. I agree. 4 hours ago, Michael Clark said: -I am seeing her making excused and hiding what may have been one event, possibly with a door There are 2 events (at least) of 'physical' abuse - Marguerite saw bruises in October, Elena Hall saw bruises in July. In terms of things pointing to 'domestic abuse' (to whatever extent) it goes much deeper than that - the Tobias thing comes from the March. What other things point to Oswald being prone to 'violence' throughout his life? There are enough things out there that whether or not they are 'exaggerated' or not overly 'accurate' still point to Oswald not exactly being an 'awesome dude'... ... seen as there is not always a direct correlation between being 'prone to violence' and 'killing someone' I don't understand why there are so many people who want to 'wave' it all away and paint Oswald as being someone we should 'respect' when there is so much out there pointing to the oppossite (regardless of whether he was or wasn't guilty of shooting JFK). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistair Briggs Posted February 27, 2017 Share Posted February 27, 2017 7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said: OK, I accept your explanation. I was feeling defensive, obviously. Anyway, the names of the seven I have are: 1. Marina Oswald 2. Marguerite Oswald 3. Alexander Kleinlerer 4. Declan & Katarina Ford 5. George & Jeanne DeMohrenschildt 6. Elena Hall 7. George Bouhe Yes, two of my selections are actually couples, so some sticklers would count that as nine -- but I grouped the married couples together. I understand you feeling defensive about it... ... personally, rather than take your word on this matter or someone else's word on the matter, I have been doing my own 'homework' on it and there seems to be a lot out there pointing towards Oswald being a 'lousy husband' - not just in terms of 'physical' things. - and not just in terms of the 'Russian community'. In fact reading more and more about Oswald's whole life quite a picture is painted... ... I feel pity for him to be honest (despite what he may or may not have done). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) Summary updates in red: Detailed Summary of Testimony Witnessed Beating or Confession of Beating Marguerite Oswald: Said that she saw Marina with a black eye one time, and that Marina admitted that Lee hit her. And that Lee admitted the same with these words, "that is our affair." Alexander Kleinlerer: Claimed to have seen Lee slap Marina twice in the face. In his affidavit he goes on and on about how despicable a person Oswald was, and how everybody in the White Russian community disliked him. Also he badly he mistreated Marina. He has nothing good to say about Lee. This testimony is so extreme that it is difficult to believe without some corroboration. Especially considering Kleinlerer's ties to people like George Bouhe and George de Mohrenschildt. White Russian Community MembersWho Witnessed Bruises George Bouhe: Black eye on two occasions. Marina told him Lee did it. (Others involved: The Fords, the Mellers, Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray.) George de Mohrenschildt: Black eye and scratched face. Marina told him Lee did it. (Others involved: George Bouhe.) Jeane de Mohrenschildt: She said, "We saw her with a black eye once." (Others involved: Her husband, George Bouhe, the Mellers, the Fords..) Declan & Katrina Ford: Bruises on face. (Others present: George Bouhe, the Mellers. Others involved: Frank & Valentina (Anna) Ray.) Anna Meller: Bruised eye. Marina told her it was caused by her walking into a door when feeding the baby at night. Edited February 27, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted February 27, 2017 Author Share Posted February 27, 2017 (edited) Going through this information, I was beginning to think that there may have been one and only one black eye incident, upon which a legend was born through gossip. Especially when I read Mrs. de Mohrenschildt's testimony where she said, "We saw her with a black eye once." (This in spite of her husband's testimony making it sound worse than that.) But then I read George Bouhe's testimony, who mentions two instances of Marina having a black eye. I felt a little skeptical, so I decided to check out his account of the second black eye. I did so, and as it turns out, his account doesn't even mention that he had contact with Marina on that occasion. Rather, Marina Called Mrs. Meller from a gas station and she told Marina to take a taxi to their house. Mr. LIEBELER - Did she appear to have been beaten up at that time; did she have bruises? Mrs. MELLER - She was very nervous; did not try to cry very much but you can see she was shaking. Mr. LIEBELER - Did she appear to be bruised? Mrs. MELLER - I will not say exactly but she was out of herself. Mr. LIEBELER - She seemed to be upset? Mrs. MELLER - Nervous, upset and looked like - she did not cry exactly and at me now but looks like she cried - her eyes. Mr. LIEBELER - Did she tell you what she and Oswald had been arguing about? Mrs. MELLER - I do not remember. She said he beat her and I do not remember asking really for what or something. Liebeler asks Mrs. Meller twice about bruises, and Mrs. Meller gives no answer other than Marina was nervous and upset. It is likely, in my opinion, that Bouhe just made that second black eye up. Edited February 27, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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