TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS

[Jim Hargrove]

18 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

 

Just on that note, here is the part of Marguerite's WC testimony for context...

Mrs. OSWALD. No, sir, Robert says nothing. I have tried to contact Robert for important matters, and Robert will not talk.
Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. And I wanted to know if Lee shot left handed. Because on Lee's leaves, as I stated, they live out in the country, and Robert goes squirrel hunting, and all kinds of hunting. And on leaves from the Marines, Lee has gone out to this farmhouse, to Robert's family house, and he and his brother have gone squirrel hunting. And so Robert would know if Lee shot left handed, and he would not give me the information, gentlemen.
Mr. RANKIN. Is Robert left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, Robert is left handed. I am left handed.
Mr. RANKIN. Is John Pic left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. No, John is not.
Mr. RANKIN. But you are?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, sir. Now, I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand.
But Lee was more left handed than I am.
I write left handed, but I do everything else with my right hand. But Lee was left handed.
Mr. RANKIN. Was Lee Oswald's father left handed?
Mrs. OSWALD. That I do not remember, Mr. Rankin. No--I am the left handed one. I would say no.

 

I just noticed this....  "Marguerite" testified that LHO was basically left handed (I added the emphasis above).  But Robert Oswald testified just the opposite:

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee? 
Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed. 
Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect? 
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed. 
Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did he write with his right or his left hand? 
Mr. OSWALD. Right handed. 
Mr. JENNER. Right handed? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. 
Mr. JENNER. During your youth? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand? 
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed. 

That's pretty strange that a mother and brother can't agree about whether a kid was right- or left-handed.  You'd almost think there was something fishy about that family. 

Question for Alistair: If you're going through the Carro material and Marguerite's testimony, could you watch for an instance in which she indicates that her husband died before LHO was born (rather than soon after)?  It seems like another strange thing to forget. 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I find Kudlaty.to be credible. Not the type to sensationalize or desire attention.

Everybody desires attention, it is a human trait. Kudlaty may correctly have a memory of somebody asking about documents and with Armstrong's help that turned into something more. Without proof it is all speculation.

[Alistair Briggs]

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

That's pretty strange that a mother and brother can't agree about whether a kid was right- or left-handed.  You'd almost think there was something fishy about that family.

From reading through the WC testimony of Robert Oswald, he seems very assured and credible with regards to Lee being right handed. Is it strange then that Marguerite would say Lee was left handed? Perhaps! However, Marguerite says " Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. " - what does 'ate right handed' mean?

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Question for Alistair: If you're going through the Carro material and Marguerite's testimony, could you watch for an instance in which she indicates that her husband died before LHO was born (rather than soon after)?  It seems like another strange thing to forget. 

Yeah I will certainly keep an eye out for that... wait, don't you mean it the other way round? I was under the impression that Lee's father died two months before he was born - can't say I have ever come across anything saying it was 'soon after'.

btw I noticed another 'error' regarding the Carro document;

Quote

The Oswalds were married on 7/19/29. Out of this union, the first for each party, were born three children.

Now that is not true on two fronts. First, Marguerite had previously been married and secondly one of the children was from that previous marriage.

Woah, I just had a thought that would explain what she had done there. I will come back to it...

EDIT: Sorry meant to say that Robert E Lee Oswald had also been previously married (to Margaret Emma Keating)
EDIT 2: Marguerite was also married another time, to Ekdhal from May 1945 till June 1948, she went back to using the name Oswald!

Edited March 1, 2017 by Alistair Briggs

[W. Tracy Parnell]

It should be remembered that Marguerite had no problem lying when it suited her purposes. This could explain her statement that her marriage to LHO's father was the first for both of them. Just a small lie so she didn't have to reveal the actual situation to Carro as she resented NYC's involvement in her affairs anyway. Another lie she told was LHO was "captain of the baseball team." So there is a reasonable explanation for at least some of the inaccuracies.

[Karl Kinaski]

2 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I just noticed this....  "Marguerite" testified that LHO was basically left handed (I added the emphasis above).  But Robert Oswald testified just the opposite:

Mr. JENNER. And your brother Lee? 
Mr. OSWALD. He was right handed. 
Representative FORD. Was there ever a time that he appeared to be left handed, as far as you recollect? 
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir. I have never known him to handle anything--throw a baseball, football, et cetera, fire a rifle, or do anything, left handed. 
Mr. JENNER. In order to be certain of the details in this respect, when he wrote, did he write with his right or his left hand? 
Mr. OSWALD. Right handed. 
Mr. JENNER. Right handed? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. And you in fact have seen him write with his right hand? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir, I have. 
Mr. JENNER. During your youth? 
Mr. OSWALD. Yes, sir. 
Mr. JENNER. Did you ever--was there ever an occasion when you saw him write or attempt to write with his left hand? 
Mr. OSWALD. No, sir, I have never seen him at any time, on any occasion, ever attempt to write or do anything left handed. 

That's pretty strange that a mother and brother can't agree about whether a kid was right- or left-handed.  You'd almost think there was something fishy about that family. 

Question for Alistair: If you're going through the Carro material and Marguerite's testimony, could you watch for an instance in which she indicates that her husband died before LHO was born (rather than soon after)?  It seems like another strange thing to forget. 

When you watch the LHO-NOLA Videos on you tube, where he is providing his leaflets to passersby in Front of the Trade Mart and at Canal Street , he did it with his right hand ... like the right  hander he was ... right hand man Lee H Oswald 

and here Lee Harvey Oswald pointing with his right hand to some spot on the sidewalk

LHO was right handed ... you can see it with your own eyes ... 

 

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Karl Kinaski

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

From reading through the WC testimony of Robert Oswald, he seems very assured and credible with regards to Lee being right handed. Is it strange then that Marguerite would say Lee was left handed? Perhaps! However, Marguerite says " Lee was left handed. Lee wrote left handed and ate right handed. " - what does 'ate right handed' mean?

I’m also left-handed but eat with my right hand.  Without giving away my age, back in the Pleistocene Epoch when I grew up, parents and even some teachers thought it was cumbersome for lefties to sit at a dinner table and eat, with the inevitable mashing of elbows with the right-handed diner seated immediately to the left.  And so eating right-handed was actively encouraged for a number of lefties, including me, and it stuck.  Despite this exception, “Marguerite” clearly said her “son” was left-handed, directly contradicted by Robert Oswald’s testimony.
 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Jim Hargrove

[Jim Hargrove]

1 hour ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Yeah I will certainly keep an eye out for that... wait, don't you mean it the other way round? I was under the impression that Lee's father died two months before he was born - can't say I have ever come across anything saying it was 'soon after'.

Right.  Sorry, I reversed what I meant to say.  No doubt goes back to my repressed left-handed eating.

[Alistair Briggs]

5 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

It should be remembered that Marguerite had no problem lying when it suited her purposes. This could explain her statement that her marriage to LHO's father was the first for both of them. Just a small lie so she didn't have to reveal the actual situation to Carro as she resented NYC's involvement in her affairs anyway. Another lie she told was LHO was "captain of the baseball team." So there is a reasonable explanation for at least some of the inaccuracies.

I think Marguerite has been quite clever with it actually. She seems to have realised that if she was truthful, and said that she had been previously married but separated whilst pregnant with John Pic and divorced not long after that and then married someone else within months of being divorced, it could have 'painted' the kind of situation that, someone like Carro, could have thought was quite 'telling' in regards to the 'behaviour' of Lee...

... to avoid that Marguerite told a 'small' lie to 'paint' a picture of 'happy families'.

Not only did she say that it was her first marriage, she had to change the year of that marriage to fit in the birth of her first born, and the easiest way to do that was to use the marriage year of her first marriage (but keep the marriage date of the second marriage) and then it would, by inference, mean that all 3 children were the son of Rovert Edward Lee Oswald.

Margaurite married Edward John Pic on August 8th 1929.
Marguerite married Robert Edward Lee Oswald on July 20th 1933

By changing the year then this,

Quote

The Oswalds were married on 7/19/29. Out of this union, the first for each party, were born three children.

makes sense... and would suit her purpose (of 'happy families')

 

...

[Alistair Briggs]

6 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Right.  Sorry, I reversed what I meant to say.  No doubt goes back to my repressed left-handed eating.

No worries. I will certainly keep my eye out for the 'not long after'.

9 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I’m also left-handed but eat with my right hand.  Without giving away my age, back in the Pleistocene Epoch when I grew up, parents and even some teachers thought it was cumbersome for lefties to sit at a dinner table and eat, with the inevitable mashing of elbows with the right-handed dinner seated immediately to the left.  And so eating right-handed was actively encouraged for a number of lefties, including me, and it stuck.  Despite this exception, “Marguerite” clearly said her “son” was left-handed, directly contradicted by Robert Oswald’s testimony.
 

It's one of these things I really had to think about as I had never really thought about what hand one eats with,

I'm right handed.

If I was having a bowl of soup and using just a spoon I would use my right hand to lift the spoon to eat.
If I was having a plate of chips and was using just a fork I would use my right hand to lift the fork to eat.
If I was having a steak using a knife and a fork, I would use the knife in my right hand and the fork in my left (and would use the left hand to lift the fork to eat).

I doubt I am alone in doing it that way. lol

I do feel that the 'writing' is the more important thing in determining whether someone is left or right handed. So yeah there is a contradiction there between Marguerite (who says Lee wrote left hand) and Robert (who says Lee wrote right hand). How often would either of them have had a chance to have seen Lee write? I don't know. Could one of them just be wrong about it? I don't know. I do think that Robert, in his WC testimony on this matter, seems assured of what he is saying and that makes me feel that what he is saying is correct about Lee writing right hand.

The two things that Karl pointed out earlier, whilst not unequivocally proving Lee to be 'right handed', they certainly point in that direction imo.

Just to ask, Jim, is it important for him to be left or right handed?

Regards

[Sandy Larsen]

9 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

In the fall of 1954, Fake Marguerite and Harvey lived in Ft Worth and he attended 9th grade at Stripling Junior High. He completed the first half of the semester (we know because the vice principal saw his grades for that) but not the second half (we know because the vice principal saw no grades for that). Harvey may have continued attending Stripling for part of the second half of fall semester.

Then in January 1955 they returned to New Orleans. Could not have Harvey attended Beauregard Junior High at that time? And thus have attended both schools during Harvey's 9th grade?

 

bump for Jim

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

[....]

The two things that Karl pointed out earlier, whilst not unequivocally proving Lee to be 'right handed', they certainly point in that direction imo.

Just to ask, Jim, is it important for him to be left or right handed?

What strikes me as important is that, once again, "Marguerite" didn't know even the simplest facts about her grown "son," like whether he was right or left handed.  Or his birth date.  Or how many sisters she herself had.  Those are not normal mistakes to make. 

[Jim Hargrove]

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

In the fall of 1954, Fake Marguerite and Harvey lived in Ft Worth and he attended 9th grade at Stripling Junior High. He completed the first half of the semester (we know because the vice principal saw his grades for that) but not the second half (we know because the vice principal saw no grades for that). Harvey may have continued attending Stripling for part of the second half of fall semester.

Then in January 1955 they returned to New Orleans. Could not have Harvey attended Beauregard Junior High at that time? And thus have attended both schools during Harvey's 9th grade?

bump for Jim

The cumulative records published by the Warren Commission show that LHO attended Beauregard School continuously from the fall of 1953 until the fall of 1955.  This is why Warren Commission defenders are trying desperately to discount all those witnesses' memories of Oswald at Stripling School in 1954.

[Sandy Larsen]

12 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

The cumulative records published by the Warren Commission show that LHO attended Beauregard School continuously from the fall of 1953 until the fall of 1955.  This is why Warren Commission defenders are trying desperately to discount all those witnesses' memories of Oswald at Stripling School in 1954.

Thanks Jim.

I think John's article would be improved if he were to provide evidence for some of the discrepancies he documents. Actually seeing a discrepancy is a powerful thing. Like the side-by-side photos of the real and fake Marguerites.

Place the videos of the Stripling assistant principal and student, and Robert's recollections of Stripling, beside the WC evidence showing that Oswald attended Beauregard the full year. Emphasize that the two schools are in different cities (states). That's a powerful argument.

 

[Sandy Larsen]

Just now, Sandy Larsen said:

Thanks Jim.

I think John's article would be improved if he were to provide evidence for some of the discrepancies he documents. Actually seeing a discrepancy is a powerful thing. Like the side-by-side photos of the real and fake Marguerites.

Place the videos of the Stripling assistant principal and student, and Robert's recollections of Stripling, beside the WC evidence showing that Oswald attended Beauregard the full year. Emphasize that the two schools are in different cities (states). That's a powerful argument.

 

John could put side-by-side comparisons like this in sidebars or boxes so they don't interrupt the flow of the main document.

[Alistair Briggs]

5 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

What strikes me as important is that, once again, "Marguerite" didn't know even the simplest facts about her grown "son," like whether he was right or left handed.  Or his birth date.  Or how many sisters she herself had.  Those are not normal mistakes to make. 

Yeah the right or left handed is a strange one indeed.

About his birth date though...

... one would hope that a parent (maybe, particularly a Mother) would get the date of birth correct. And yet, she was only one day out (19th instead of 18th). Some people could make that mistake relatively easy. I don't know. I see it as somewhat surprising, but not 'suspicious'...

Quote

Mr. JENNER - The record of the Bethlehem Children's Home show that he was baptised by the Rev. M. R. Lecron of the Redeemer Lutheran Church. The exact date, however, is not given.
Mr. PIC - They even have his birthday wrong there.
Mr. JENNER - 1 day. They have it as the 19th whereas it was 18th. As a matter of fact, your mother on one of her papers fixes it on the 19th.
Mr. PIC - So does one of the letters.

...I might have overlooked something somewhere but is there any place where Marguerite actually says it was the 18th herself? Perhaps she just thinks it was the 19th and not the 18th. I don't know. Something that just jumped out at me there was that not only does she put Lee's birthday on the 19th (when it should have been the 18th) she also put her marriage on the 19th (when it was actually the 20th), what would make her think of the 19th so much? Maybe, just maybe it was because she was born on the 19th (I'm not suggesting that is the answer, merely offering it up as a maybe.)

*As a slight aside (this morning I ran a small experiment and I asked my Dad what year my brother was born (his answer was 1976) and asked him what year I was born (his answer was 1982). He was wrong on both counts, my brother was born in 1977 and I was born in 1980.)

About the how many sisters she had...

... I can't find that anywhere. I can't find it in the Carro exhibit. I can't find it in Carro's WC testimony. I can't find it anywhere. If there is a source for it that I am overlooking then hopefully someone can point me in its direction.

P.S. I still can't find the Lillian Sigouerette thing anywhere either. Even a Google search for the name 'Sigouerette' is no help - it returned only 43 hits and each and everyone were the line from Armstrong's book " She gave her sister's name as Lillian Sigouerette, when we know her sister's name was Lillian Murrett.". I wonder what the source of it was... even doing a search for it on here only gives 3 results and that 2 of those are from me and you, the other is from Jack White in 2010 where he quotes it from the book...

Jim, if you are able to perhaps ask John Armstrong for the source of the sisters thing and the source for the sigouerette thing that would be great.

Regards

P.S. I am very much appreciating our discourse here. I find the whole topic fascinating.