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TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS


Jim Hargrove
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55 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Note the stamp “THIS PASSPORT IS NOT VALID FOR TRAVEL IN HUNGARY” toward the middle of the page on the right.  It could be just a reaction to the 1956 revolution in Hungary, but, if Harvey’s original home was in Hungary, it might be there to prevent him from abandoning his Mission to Moscow and returning to his ancestral home.

 

Just on that note, this may be of interest;

http://equator.eftours.com/the-ef-passport/passport-not-valid-for-travel-to-hungary

It is about someone else's passport (from 1958) that also included the 'This passport is not valid for travel in Hungary' and it explains the why. ;)

Here is another example of a passport that said the same thing;

https://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/BBBAAC.pdf

and this example

http://grofjardanhazy.tumblr.com/post/51792624956/this-passport-is-not-valid-for-travel-in

Edit for clarification: That is three other examples of passports from a similar time - one child, one man, one woman - and all of them have the same 'restriction', because Hungary was a 'no-go' country at the time and not for any 'nefarious' reasons. ;)

 

Edited by Alistair Briggs
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8 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


I doubt that Jim has documentary evidence that Harvey Oswald was a Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel. Because surely it would be in Armstrong's book if there was any such evidence.

However, there is documentary evidence that there were two Oswald's. In addition, there is photographic and documentary evidence that they each had a mother named Marguerite Oswald.

These mothers and sons share many attributes, for example the same birth dates. Statistic for this occurring naturally are extremely slim. Reasoning tells us that instead, one mother/son pair is likely a CIA doppelganger for he other. Because what other U.S. organization would create such a thing?

It is highly unusual for a non-native speaker of Russian to speak it as well as Harvey did after living just two years in Russia. Given that Harvey was likely a CIA doppelganger, and that he spoke near flawless Russian, as though he were a native speaker of the language, it is reasonable to conclude that his doppelganger mother would not be his true mother. Because if she were, she too would be a native speaker of Russian.

So, documentary evidence, photographic evidence, vocal evidence, and reasoning indicates that Harvey Oswald is likely a native Russian speaking man who has been paired up with a fake mother at a young age by the CIA.

Further reasoning indicates that this boy either has no family or was taken from his family. For what boy would willingly leave his family?And what family would willingly give up their child. Not many.

Further reasoning indicates that this boy lived his early years in a Russian speaking environment. That would explain his superb Russian speaking skills.

Statistics dictate that the Russian speaking environment was likely in Eastern Europe. So the boy likely came to America from an Eastern European county.

As I reasoned earlier, it is very unlikely that a young boy would willingly leave his family. Or that a family would willingly give up one of their children. Therefore it is likely that the boy had no family.

Kids who have no family usually live in an orphanage. So the boy likely came from an orphanage.

From all this I conclude that Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking orphan brought to the U.S. by the CIA.

Now, I don't know much about U.S. intelligence agencies other than the CIA and NSA. Oswald may have been brought here by one of the other intelligence agencies. So I will change "CIA" to the more general term "intel" in my conclusion:

Harvey Oswald was probably a Russian-speaking orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel.

Therefore my conclusion is the same as Jim and John's, with the exception of the "World War II" part. If orphanage statistics around 1950 showed that a large majority of Eastern European orphans were products of the war, than I would add the "World War II" part to my conclusion as well.

 

Thank you for the well-reasoned post.  The basis for the WWII war orphan speculation is that LEE Oswald was born in New Orleans in 1939, and that HARVEY, to attend school at roughly the same time, would have to be roughly the same age.  And we all know how horrible conditions must have been in Russia and what soon became eastern Bloc Europe as the war ground on.  There must have been armies of dazed and hungry war orphans walking the bombed out cities after the shooting stopped. 

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3 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Just on that note, this may be of interest;

http://equator.eftours.com/the-ef-passport/passport-not-valid-for-travel-to-hungary

It is about someone else's passport (from 1958) that also included the 'This passport is not valid for travel in Hungary' and it explains the why. ;)

Here is another example of a passport that said the same thing;

https://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/BBBAAC.pdf

and this example

http://grofjardanhazy.tumblr.com/post/51792624956/this-passport-is-not-valid-for-travel-in

Edit for clarification: That is three other examples of passports from a similar time - one child, one man, one woman - and all of them have the same 'restriction', because Hungary was a 'no-go' country at the time and not for any 'nefarious' reasons. ;)

 

Thanks, Alistair.  It may well have been because of the Hungarian revolution, then just a few years old.

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7 hours ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

When he arrived in the Soviet Union, he spoke Russian very poorly, but by the time he made the acquaintance of the Russian community in the US, he was reasonably proficient.

Tracy,

If Oswald was a fake defector, as many of us believe, then I think it should be expected that he not show off his Russian language proficiency during his mission in Russia. Better to play dumb. (BTW, didn't Marina do the same thing here?)

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6 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

Just on that note, this may be of interest;

http://equator.eftours.com/the-ef-passport/passport-not-valid-for-travel-to-hungary

It is about someone else's passport (from 1958) that also included the 'This passport is not valid for travel in Hungary' and it explains the why. ;)

Here is another example of a passport that said the same thing;

https://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/ps/access/BBBAAC.pdf

and this example

http://grofjardanhazy.tumblr.com/post/51792624956/this-passport-is-not-valid-for-travel-in

Edit for clarification: That is three other examples of passports from a similar time - one child, one man, one woman - and all of them have the same 'restriction', because Hungary was a 'no-go' country at the time and not for any 'nefarious' reasons. ;)

 

Dear Alistar,

Don't you realize they were all part of the "Oswald Project"?

(lol)

--  Tommy :sun

PS  Thanks for sharing that.

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10 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tracy,

If Oswald was a fake defector, as many of us believe, then I think it should be expected that he not show off his Russian language proficiency during his mission in Russia. Better to play dumb. (BTW, didn't Marina do the same thing here?)

Sandy, I think you should get off the fence now and just say you are in the Armstrong camp. They would appreciate it I am sure as their numbers are dwindling.

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26 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

Sandy, I think you should get off the fence now and just say you are in the Armstrong camp. They would appreciate it I am sure as their numbers are dwindling.

Sheesh!  There have been more than 6,000 unique visitors to HarveyandLee.net so far in this month alone, the highest count I can recall since I established the domain three or four years ago.  Obviously, Mr. Parnell just says anything he hopes will enable his debunking efforts.  I'm going to start reading Tracy Parnell's blog or website or whatever it is and report back here on the disinformation I suspect I'll find.

In the meantime, visit the website Tracy Parnell doesn't want you to see:

HarveyandLee.net

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Mr Hargrove seems to be admitting at last that there is absolutely no documentary evidence for the existence of a "Russian-speaking World War II orphan brought to the U.S. by American intel", just as there is no documentary evidence for the existence of a child of Russian-speaking Hungarian refugees, as claimed in the Harvey and Lee book.

"Since we don’t know who Russian-speaking Harvey Oswald was," Mr Hargrove writes, "we can only assume he came from Russia or an eastern Block nation and Russian-speaking parents." In other words, and in keeping with the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory, it's all guesswork. 'Harvey' remains a fictional character.
 

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Since he was such a young man when he obviously knew Russian in the Marine Corps, it is hardly a leap of faith to make the assumption that 'Lee Harvey Oswald' knew Russian as a child.
 

It is actually a huge leap of faith to suggest that anyone, whether a real person such as Oswald or an imaginary person such as 'Harvey', must have known Russian as a child, merely on the grounds that he had some competence in the language in his late teens. I assume that Mr Hargrove has never made a serious attempt to learn a foreign language. It doesn't require magic, and you don't need to be a genius. With sufficient motivation and access to suitable learning tools, almost any normal person will be able to replicate the achievement of the American-born, English-speaking Lee Harvey Oswald who acquired some competence in Russian in his teens. It's worth noting that all the Russian speakers, quoted by Mr Hargrove, who vouched for Oswald's fluency in Russian did so several years after Oswald's time in the Marines, and after he had spent more than two and a half years living in a Russian-speaking community. There's nothing there that requires Oswald to have known the language as a child, either as an imaginary Hungarian refugee or an imaginary Russian orphan.

 

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Sandy Larsen writes:

 

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there is [extremely flimsy] documentary evidence that there were two Oswald's [sic]. In addition, there is [even flimsier] photographic and documentary evidence that they each had a mother named Marguerite Oswald. These mothers and sons share many attributes, for example the same birth dates. Statistic for this occurring naturally are extremely slim [no kidding!]. Reasoning tells us that instead, one mother/son pair is likely a CIA doppelganger for he other.

On the contrary, it is gullibility and an irrational desire to see a conspiracy everywhere you look that tells you that one mother and son were CIA doppelgangers. Reasoning tells the rest of us that one mother/son pair is vastly more likely to be a figment of the imagination, as a result of the poor interpretation of some very dubious evidence.

Quote

It is highly unusual for a non-native speaker of Russian to speak it as well as Harvey did after living just two years in Russia.

Really? I'd like to see some evidence for that. The historical Lee Harvey Oswald (not 'Harvey', who is a fictional character) was actually in the Soviet Union for two years and eight months, and had already been learning Russian for a couple of years while in the Marines. It is uncontroversial that on his return to the US, he spoke the language fluently but far from perfectly, just as one would expect of a motivated, non-native speaker who had spent several years studying and practising the language.

It's worth emphasising the fact that Oswald's Russian was far from perfect, even after he had lived among native Russian speakers for more than two and a half years. It is unlikely, to say the least, that a native speaker's command of his own language would actually decrease with practice, as that of the fictional native-speaker 'Harvey' is supposed to have done. Surely that fact by itself destroys the credibility of the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' fantasy.

 

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So, [flimsy] documentary evidence, [even flimsier] photographic evidence, [poorly interpreted] vocal evidence, and [exceptionally poor] reasoning indicates that [the fictional character] Harvey Oswald is likely a native Russian speaking man who has been paired up with a fake mother at a young age by the CIA.

You forgot to add the latest element in the fairy tale: "... is likely a native Russian speaking man who has been paired up with a fake mother at a young age by the CIA and who was given an imaginary and unnecessary mastoidectomy by an imaginary surgeon in an imaginary hospital as a child on the off-chance that his body might need to be dug up decades later". And some people have the nerve to suggest that the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory is all a load of made-up nonsense!

 


 

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20 minutes ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Really? I'd like to see some evidence for that. The historical Lee Harvey Oswald (not 'Harvey', who is a fictional character) was actually in the Soviet Union for two years and eight months, and had already been learning Russian for a couple of years while in the Marines.

Really?  I'd like to see some evidence that Oswald--any Oswald--"had already been learning Russian for a couple of years while in the Marines," as you put it.

Since you're always demanding evidence from me... let's see your evidence that "Oswald" studied Russian as a Marine.  

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Jeremy

Four eyewitnesses saw a second Oswald in Dealey Plaza the day Kennedy was killed and one saw the rambler with it´s dark complexioned driver near or in Dealey Plaza before the second Oswald entered the rambler. Five eyewitnesses is strong evidence that there were two Oswalds in Dealey Plaza on 22 Nov 1963.

Armstrong attempts to explain how a second Oswald could have existed. His work in no way takes away from the fact that there were two Oswalds in Dealey Plaza.

I may not agree with everything he presents as evidence, but I respect his work tackling a very complicated issue.

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It's no secret that Oswald had been learning Russian while in the Marines. If Mr Hargrove wants to see the evidence, he should turn to volume 8 of the Hearings and Exhibits, which contains the testimony of several of Oswald's Marine contemporaries. This is what he will find:

Charles Donovan:
"He said he was interested in learning Russian. And he took great pride in the fact that he could speak it." (p.292: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=300 )

James Anthony Botelho: 
"It was common knowledge that Oswald had taught himself to speak Russian. Oswald used expressions like 'da' and 'niet' around the squadron. Some of his fellow Marines kidded him by calling him 'Oswaldskovitch'." (p.315: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=323 )

Donald Peter Camarata:
"While in the Marine Corps, I heard from other Marines that Oswald was studying Russian. I personally observed that Oswald had his name written in Russian on one of his jackets, and played Russian songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks." (p.316: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=324 )

David Christie Murray:
"When I knew him, he was studying Russian. He often made remarks in Russian; the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this." (p.319: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=327 )

Henry J. Roussel:
"On one occasion I arranged a date for Oswald with my aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working for the American Embassy in Russia, had taken a leave from her job in order to study Russian. I arranged the date because I knew of Oswald's study of the Russian language." (p.321: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=329 ; see also CE 2015 [vol.24, p.430]: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=448 )

Mack Osborne:
"Oswald was at that time studying Russian. He spent a great deal of his free time reading papers printed in Russian ... with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary. I believe he also had some books written in Russian. ... Because of the fact that he was studying Russian, fellow Marines sometimes jokingly accused him of being a Russian spy. In my opinion he took such accusations in fun." (pp.321-322: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=329 )

Richard Dennis Call:
"During this time, Oswald was studying Russian. For this reason many members of the unit kidded him about being a Russian spy; Oswald seemed to enjoy this sort of remark. ... In connection with this general joking about Oswald's interest in Russian, he was nicknamed 'Oswaldskovitch'." (pp.322-323: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=330 )

There's also the testimony of Kerry Thornley:
"I did know at the time that he was learning the Russian language. I knew he was subscribing to Pravda or a Russian newspaper of some kind from Moscow. All of this I took as a sign of his interest in the subject, and not as a sign of any active commitment to the Communist ends." (vol.11 p.87: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=45#relPageId=97 )

I should point out that several of these men had three names, which provides solid proof that, just like Lee Harvey Oswald, each was actually two people. Donald Peter Camarata, for example, was in fact made up of Donald Camarata, an English-speaking American, and Peter Camarata, a poor World War Two orphan from Japan. Richard Dennis Call is clearly both Richard Call, an English-speaking American, and Dennis Call, the child of Swahili-speaking Armenian refugees. Needless to say, both the Japanese orphan and the Armenian refugee child had undergone unnecessary operations as children, performed by the same imaginary surgeon who performed the imaginary mastoidectomy on the fictional 'Harvey'.

Edited by Jeremy Bojczuk
Tidied up links that the forum software's appalling editor messed up.
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