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TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS


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George,

There are many accounts of what appears to be someone impersonating Oswald, not only in Dealey Plaza on the day of the assassination but also elsewhere in Dallas on other occasions and in other places, most notably Mexico City. But none of these accounts requires the ridiculously improbable 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory to explain them.

There are always more credible explanations available. For example, eye-witnesses are notoriously unreliable, and a particular witness may simply have seen someone who looked a bit like Oswald. Even when there is good evidence of an actual impersonation, such as the incident in Mexico City, there is no need to conjure up a vastly complex conspiracy dating back to when Oswald was 12 years old, involving two boys and two mothers and two mastoidectomy operations.

The main problem with all of the moon-landings type of JFK assassination theories is not that they are largely unsupported by credible evidence, as we have seen in the case of the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory, but that they promote the idea that the only available choice is between the official account and some far-fetched paranoid nonsense. There is always a rational, evidence-based alternative that doesn't involve faked films, doppelganger Marguerites and Swahili-speaking Armenian refugee children.

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Jeremy

Eyewitness testimony can be a problem, however in this case one eyewitness was one car length behind the rambler, a second witness was two car lengths behind the rambler and the lady who said she may have seen Oswald´s twin was standing on the sidewalk not far from the grassy knoll. Craig was across the street from the rambler probably within 50 feet of it. That´s four witnesses very close to the second Oswald. These four eyewitnesses saw a second Oswald at the same time. To me that is very compelling for a second Oswald. The chances of all four being wrong are slim and none.

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George,

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the man running away from the book depository was an Oswald impostor. Since there are plenty of problems with the official account of Oswald's movements immediately after the assassination, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the running man was the actual, one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald.

But I would rule out the possibility that the running man was someone who had been inducted into a dastardly secret scheme when he was 12 years old, in the remote hope that when he grew up he would physically resemble a completely unrelated person. Anyone who has read the 'Harvey and Lee' threads on this forum, as well as the threads on Greg Parker's forum ( https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f13-the-harvey-lee-evidence ) and W. Tracy Parnell's website ( http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/ ), will know how poorly supported that particular theory is.

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It is no secret that Harvey Oswald was showing off his Russian abilities as a Marine during the months prior to his false defection.  But in lieu of offering any evidence whatsoever that Harvey took formal training in Russian while in the Marine Corps, Jeremy Bojczuk wants us to believe that he taught himself to read and write and speak and comprehend the language from reading newspapers and magazines in Russian and looking up words in a dictionary.   We are to believe that this bit of home-spun learning, coupled with a 2-1/2 year stint in the Soviet Union mostly occupied by a full time job in a factory, would leave him with a command of the language that amazed native-speaking Russians? 

This was why he preferred to read classic Russian literature in Russian, and, according to DeMohrenschildt, preferred communicating in Russian over English?  It is a preposterous story! 

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4 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

George,

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the man running away from the book depository was an Oswald impostor. Since there are plenty of problems with the official account of Oswald's movements immediately after the assassination, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the running man was the actual, one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald.

But I would rule out the possibility that the running man was someone who had been inducted into a dastardly secret scheme when he was 12 years old, in the remote hope that when he grew up he would physically resemble a completely unrelated person. Anyone who has read the 'Harvey and Lee' threads on this forum, as well as the threads on Greg Parker's forum ( https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f13-the-harvey-lee-evidence ) and W. Tracy Parnell's website ( http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/ ), will know how poorly supported that particular theory is.

Jeremy,

Exactly.

I tried to express the same idea to George a few days ago, but not as elegantly as you just have.

Unfortunately, my attempt seems to have had no effect on him, whatsoever.

--  Tommy :sun

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5 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

George,

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the man running away from the book depository was an Oswald impostor. Since there are plenty of problems with the official account of Oswald's movements immediately after the assassination, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the running man was the actual, one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald.

But I would rule out the possibility that the running man was someone who had been inducted into a dastardly secret scheme when he was 12 years old, in the remote hope that when he grew up he would physically resemble a completely unrelated person. Anyone who has read the 'Harvey and Lee' threads on this forum, as well as the threads on Greg Parker's forum ( https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f13-the-harvey-lee-evidence ) and W. Tracy Parnell's website ( http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/ ), will know how poorly supported that particular theory is.

Just curious...  Have you read Armstrong's book, seen the CD images and/or looked thru the Baylor notebooks?

Thanks

DJ

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19 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

Just curious...  Have you read Armstrong's book, seen the CD images and/or looked thru the Baylor notebooks?

Thanks

DJ

Dear David,

I must confess that I haven't.

Could you please give us a 100-page synopsis?

--  Tommy :sun

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David

I´ve read a little by Armstrong but not the book. Not read anything from the Baylor library on the assassination. Nothing on CD images.

I know there were two Oswalds in Dealey Plaza on the day Kennedy was killed. How they got there, the personality of both, ect, ect, I´m not interested. Whether Armstrong is right or wrong I don´t care. It´s not important.

I tried to make light of Jeremy´s last post to me simply because there is solid evidence that the Oswald who Ruby killed took a bus, got off the bus and took a cab to his apartment. Trying to muddy up the waters is a CIA trick and I´m not going to waste time arguing about it.  I´m not saying Jeremy is CIA, but he used a CIA argument.

Armstrong has opened up a few avenues for researchers to concentrate their efforts. A good example is Oswald the loner. Armstrong shows that Oswald is anything but a loner. Armstrong has shed light on the CIA´s relationship with Oswald. All in all Armstrong deserves credit and respect for his work.

The ridicule and criticism directed towards Armstrong reeks of fear because he may be right.

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For Jeremy Bojczuk....


20 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project was Run by the CIA


1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

15. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, but the CIA ignored his warnings.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

20. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.
 

Krock_CIA.jpeg?dl=0

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4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

For Jeremy Bojczuk....


20 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project was Run by the CIA


1. CIA accountant James Wilcott said he made payments to an encrypted account for “Oswald or the Oswald Project.”

2. Antonio Veciana said he saw LHO meeting with CIA’s Maurice Bishop/David Atlee Phillips in Dallas in August 1963.

3. A 1978 CIA memo indicates that a CIA operations officer “had run an agent into the USSR, that man having met a Russian girl and eventually marrying her,” a case very similar to Oswald’s and clearly indicating that the Agency ran a “false defector” program in the 1950s.

4. Robert Webster and LHO "defected" a few months apart in 1959, both tried to "defect" on a Saturday, both possessed "sensitive" information of possible value to the Russians, both were befriended by Marina Prusakova, and both returned to the United States in the spring of 1962.

5. Richard Sprague, Richard Schweiker, and CIA agents Donald Norton and Joseph Newbrough all said LHO was associated with the CIA. 

6. CIA employee Donald Deneslya said he read reports of a CIA agent who had worked at a radio factory in Minsk and returned to the US with a Russian wife and child.

7. Kenneth Porter, employee of CIA-connected Collins Radio, left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor) Marina Oswald after LHO’s death.

8. George Joannides, case officer and paymaster for DRE (which LHO had attempted to infiltrate) was put in charge of lying to the HSCA and never told them of his relationship to DRE.

9. For his achievements, Joannides was given a medal by the CIA.

10. FBI took Oswald off the watch list at the same time a CIA cable gave him a clean bill of political health, weeks after Oswald’s New Orleans arrest and less than two months before the assassination.

11. Oswald’s lengthy “Lives of Russian Workers” essay reads like a pretty good intelligence report.

12. Oswald’s possessions were searched for microdots.

13. Oswald owned an expensive Minox spy camera, which the FBI tried to make disappear.

14. Even the official cover story of the radar operator near American U-2 planes defecting to Russia, saying he would give away all his secrets, and returning home without penalty smells like a spy story.

15. CIA Richard Case Nagell clearly knew about the plot to assassinate JFK and LHO’s relation to it, but the CIA ignored his warnings.

16. LHO always seemed poor as a church mouse, until it was time to go “on assignment.”  For his Russian adventure, we’re to believe he saved all the money he needed for first class European hotels and private tour guides in Moscow from the non-convertible USMC script he saved. In the summer of 1963, he once again seemed to have enough money to travel abroad to Communist nations.

17. To this day, the CIA claims it never interacted with Oswald, that it didn’t even bother debriefing him after the “defection.” What utter bs….

18. After he “defected” to the Soviet Union in 1959, bragging to U.S. embassy personnel in Moscow that he would tell the Russians everything he knew about U.S. military secrets, he returns to the U.S. without punishment and is then in 1963 given the OK to travel to Cuba and the Soviet Union again!

19. Allen Dulles, the CIA director fired by JFK, and the Warren Commission clearly wanted the truth hidden from the public to protect sources and methods of intelligence agencies such as the CIA. Earl Warren said, “Full disclosure was not possible for reasons of national security.”

20. President Kennedy and the CIA clearly were at war with each other in the weeks immediately before his assassination, as evidenced by Arthur Krock's infamous defense of the Agency in the Oct. 3, 1963 New York Times. “Oswald” was the CIA’s pawn.
 

Krock_CIA.jpeg?dl=0

"Dear James"

Have any of these facts been debunked yet?

--  Tommy :sun

PS  How soon do you think you'll have enough evidence to "slam-dunkingly" convict someone, dead or alive, in a court of law?

I would think the easiest to do that to would be David Sanchez Morales and David Atlee Phillips.

How about you?

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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16 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

Sandy Larsen writes:

 

Quote

there is [extremely flimsy] documentary evidence that there were two Oswald's [sic]. In addition, there is [even flimsier] photographic and documentary evidence that they each had a mother named Marguerite Oswald. These mothers and sons share many attributes, for example the same birth dates. Statistic for this occurring naturally are extremely slim [no kidding!]. Reasoning tells us that instead, one mother/son pair is likely a CIA doppelganger for he other.

O


Jeremy,

You misrepresented my views in a number of places in one of your posts, the first part of which I quote above. Specifically you quote me as saying, "there is [extremely flimsy] documentary evidence that there were two Oswald's [sic]." The "[sic]" clarification you added is appropriate, but the "[extremely flimsy]" clarification is not. That is your or somebody else's characterization, not mine.

Kindly remove those erroneous clarifications from your post, or attribute them to their owner.

 

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13 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

It's no secret that Oswald had been learning Russian while in the Marines. If Mr Hargrove wants to see the evidence, he should turn to volume 8 of the Hearings and Exhibits, which contains the testimony of several of Oswald's Marine contemporaries. This is what he will find:

Charles Donovan:
"He said he was interested in learning Russian. And he took great pride in the fact that he could speak it." (p.292: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=300 )

James Anthony Botelho: 
"It was common knowledge that Oswald had taught himself to speak Russian. Oswald used expressions like 'da' and 'niet' around the squadron. Some of his fellow Marines kidded him by calling him 'Oswaldskovitch'." (p.315: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=323 )

Donald Peter Camarata:
"While in the Marine Corps, I heard from other Marines that Oswald was studying Russian. I personally observed that Oswald had his name written in Russian on one of his jackets, and played Russian songs so loud that one could hear them outside the barracks." (p.316: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=324 )

David Christie Murray:
"When I knew him, he was studying Russian. He often made remarks in Russian; the less intelligent members of the unit admired him for this." (p.319: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=327 )

Henry J. Roussel:
"On one occasion I arranged a date for Oswald with my aunt, Rosaleen Quinn, an airline stewardess who, because she was interested in working for the American Embassy in Russia, had taken a leave from her job in order to study Russian. I arranged the date because I knew of Oswald's study of the Russian language." (p.321: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=329 ; see also CE 2015 [vol.24, p.430]: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1140#relPageId=448 )

Mack Osborne:
"Oswald was at that time studying Russian. He spent a great deal of his free time reading papers printed in Russian ... with the aid of a Russian-English dictionary. I believe he also had some books written in Russian. ... Because of the fact that he was studying Russian, fellow Marines sometimes jokingly accused him of being a Russian spy. In my opinion he took such accusations in fun." (pp.321-322: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=329 )

Richard Dennis Call:
"During this time, Oswald was studying Russian. For this reason many members of the unit kidded him about being a Russian spy; Oswald seemed to enjoy this sort of remark. ... In connection with this general joking about Oswald's interest in Russian, he was nicknamed 'Oswaldskovitch'." (pp.322-323: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=36#relPageId=330 )

There's also the testimony of Kerry Thornley:
"I did know at the time that he was learning the Russian language. I knew he was subscribing to Pravda or a Russian newspaper of some kind from Moscow. All of this I took as a sign of his interest in the subject, and not as a sign of any active commitment to the Communist ends." (vol.11 p.87: http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=45#relPageId=97 )

I should point out that several of these men had three names, which provides solid proof that, just like Lee Harvey Oswald, each was actually two people. Donald Peter Camarata, for example, was in fact made up of Donald Camarata, an English-speaking American, and Peter Camarata, a poor World War Two orphan from Japan. Richard Dennis Call is clearly both Richard Call, an English-speaking American, and Dennis Call, the child of Swahili-speaking Armenian refugees. Needless to say, both the Japanese orphan and the Armenian refugee child had undergone unnecessary operations as children, performed by the same imaginary surgeon who performed the imaginary mastoidectomy on the fictional 'Harvey'.

 

Jeremy,

You may be right that Oswald taught himself Russian.

Or John Armstrong may be right, that learning Russian was part of a CIA front for a fake defector project.

But there is no way of knowing who is right  by reading the Warren Commission Report.

 

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14 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

"....they are largely unsupported by credible evidence, as we have seen in the case of the 'Harvey and Lee (and Marguerite and Marguerite)' theory....


Jeremy,

If the Harvey and Lee theory is largely unsupported by credible evidence, as you say, then why haven't you attempted to explain the apparent fact that Oswald attended both Public School #44 in NYC and Beauregard Junior High School simultaneously in the fall of 1953? Why can nobody on your side put forth a plausible explanation for that? And why do they pretend they've done so when they clearly have not?

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