TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS

[Sandy Larsen]

12 hours ago, Jeremy Bojczuk said:

George,

I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the man running away from the book depository was an Oswald impostor. Since there are plenty of problems with the official account of Oswald's movements immediately after the assassination, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that the running man was the actual, one-and-only Lee Harvey Oswald.

But I would rule out the possibility that the running man was someone who had been inducted into a dastardly secret scheme when he was 12 years old, in the remote hope that when he grew up he would physically resemble a completely unrelated person. Anyone who has read the 'Harvey and Lee' threads on this forum, as well as the threads on Greg Parker's forum ( https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/f13-the-harvey-lee-evidence ) and W. Tracy Parnell's website ( http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/ ), will know how poorly supported that particular theory is.

Jeremy,

I agree that it would be unreasonable to assume that two similar-looking young boys would end up looking alike as adults. However, it could be that the boys were selected on appearance merely with the hope that they continue looking somewhat similar as adults so as to improve the likelihood that the cover would stick.

 

[Thomas Graves]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jeremy,

I agree that it would be unreasonable to assume that two similar-looking young boys would end up looking alike as adults. However, it could be that the boys were selected on appearance merely with the hope that they continue looking somewhat similar as adults so as to improve the likelihood that the cover would stick.

 

Sandy,

Kinda like expendable doppelgangers on spec?

--  Tommy

Edited March 23, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

But in lieu of offering any evidence whatsoever that Harvey took formal training in Russian while in the Marine Corps, Jeremy Bojczuk wants us to believe that he taught himself to read and write and speak and comprehend the language from reading newspapers and magazines in Russian and looking up words in a dictionary.

Jim,

I've always thought that there is evidence that Oswald learned Russian in some military school, somewhere in California IIRC. Because I've seen that written by CTers on more than one or two occasions.

Are you saying that there is no such evidence?

[Thomas Graves]

21 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Jim,

I've always thought that there is evidence that Oswald learned Russian in some military school, somewhere in California IIRC. Because I've seen that written by CTers on more than one or two occasions.

Are you saying that there is no such evidence?

You're thinking of the Monterey School of Languages.  google it plus oswald

Edited March 23, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

3 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

You're thinking of the Monterey School of Languages

Yes, exactly! Thanks Thomas.

Here's what I found on the JFKCountercoup Blogspot blog:

Monterey Language Institute - Presidio

Dick Russell, in The Man Who Knew To Much wrote: The official record on Oswald makes no mention of his having received official tutelage in any language during his Marine years. However, at a Warren Commission executive session whose minutes were declassified in 1974, chief counsel J. Lee Rankin is quoted saying of Oswald: “We are trying….to find out what he studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages.”

California’s Monterey School, where Ricahrd Nagell had received his own extensive language training, was still quite active when Oswald was stationed in California in 1959...

In Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald
http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html
It is noted:

However, Lee Oswald wasn't trained in Russian, and his military file discloses no such training. Several of his fellow Marines recalled Oswald teaching himself Russian, and he apparently requested to take a written examination to test his knowledge. The examination is part of Oswald's USMC file, and no attempt was made to conceal it from the Warren Commission. The existence of the exam was voluntarily disclosed to the Commission during the deposition of Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom of the Marine Corps's Personnel Department, Records Branch.

To be fair, if Oswald were taught Russian as part of an intel operation, I wouldn't expect it to be recorded in his military records.

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, exactly! Thanks Thomas.

Here's what I found on the JFKCountercoup Blogspot blog:

Monterey Language Institute - Presidio

Dick Russell, in The Man Who Knew To Much wrote: The official record on Oswald makes no mention of his having received official tutelage in any language during his Marine years. However, at a Warren Commission executive session whose minutes were declassified in 1974, chief counsel J. Lee Rankin is quoted saying of Oswald: “We are trying….to find out what he studied at the Monterey School of the Army in the way of languages.”

California’s Monterey School, where Ricahrd Nagell had received his own extensive language training, was still quite active when Oswald was stationed in California in 1959...

In Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald
http://www.jfk-online.com/jfk100wholho.html
It is noted:

However, Lee Oswald wasn't trained in Russian, and his military file discloses no such training. Several of his fellow Marines recalled Oswald teaching himself Russian, and he apparently requested to take a written examination to test his knowledge. The examination is part of Oswald's USMC file, and no attempt was made to conceal it from the Warren Commission. The existence of the exam was voluntarily disclosed to the Commission during the deposition of Lt. Col. Allison G. Folsom of the Marine Corps's Personnel Department, Records Branch.

To be fair, if Oswald were taught Russian as part of an intel operation, I wouldn't expect it to be recorded in his military records.

 

 

What led Rankin to believe Oswald had studied there?

Nagell whispered it in his ear?

Edited March 23, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

9 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

What led Rankin to believe Oswald had studied there?

I don't know.

But I do know that Rankin revealed some interesting things in the WC's executive sessions. For example, that several people in Dallas (mostly journalists) thought that Oswald was an FBI informant. And a CIA agent.

Also, he revealed the problem with the bullet hole in Kennedy's back being too low to explain the throat wound as being an exit for the back wound entrance. (He may have specifically said that the back wound was below the shoulder blade. I recall only that he makes it clear the wound is low.)

 

[Thomas Graves]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I don't know.

But I do know that Rankin revealed some interesting things in the WC's executive sessions. For example, that several people in Dallas (mostly journalists) thought that Oswald was an FBI informant. And a CIA agent.

Also, he revealed the problem with the bullet hole in Kennedy's back being too low to explain the throat wound as being an exit for the back wound entrance. (He may have specifically said that the back wound was below the shoulder blade. I recall only that he makes it clear the wound is low.)

 

Depends on which Journalists.  Thierry Speth?  Julian Assange?

[Jim Hargrove]

From Harvey and Lee....

 

Russian-speaking Oswald

 

One of the unexplained curiosities, which always perplexed and intrigued me,

was Oswald's near perfect command of the Russian language, which was allegedly self­-

taught and mastered within a couple of months. I studied the German language for two

years in high school, had a German-speaking neighbor as a tutor, and became somewhat

proficient in elementary German. After two years of study, I could understand and

speak simple sentences, but was completely lost during a normal conversation. I won­-

dered how Oswald, with a 9th grade education, could have mastered the Russian

language within a few months, without the aid of a teacher, tutor, or language school.

 

I studied Oswald's Marine Corps records to see if there was a time period dur­-

ing which he could have received language training, possibly at the Army Language

School in Monterey, CA. I began by listing the dates of his Marine Corps training,

assignments, transfers, and duty stations on 1956, 1957, 1958 and 1959 calendars. I soon

realized there was no time for Oswald to have taken Russian classes in boot camp

(1956), ITR training (early 1957), aviation training in Jacksonville, Florida (March-April,

1957), or radar school in Biloxi (May-June, 1957). In August 1957, Oswald boarded the

USS Bexar to Japan and no one saw him reading or studying Russian during the voy-

age.

 

In September 1957 Oswald arrived in Atsugi, Japan and was photographed

standing in front of his locker.^JFKlOl-03 Fellow Marine Zack Stout befriended Oswald and

the young men spent a lot of time together. I asked Zack if he ever saw Oswald study the

Russian language. Zack said, "Most of the time we were with a mobile radar unit.

Shortly after he arrived we left Japan and traveled constantly from location to location

in the South China Sea (beginning in November 1957). I know Oswald didn't attend

any Russian classes or read any Russian books or listen to any Russian records. He didn't

have anywhere to get such materials and if he had them we (Stout and fellow Marines)

would have known about it. We slept in the same bunkhouse and most of the time

worked on the same radar crew. The idea that Oswald studied Russian in Japan is ri­-

diculous--it just didn't happen."²

 

After speaking with Zack, I gathered FBI, Warren Commission, and HSCA

interviews of Marines who had known and served with Oswald in Japan. I wanted to

see if any of these Marines saw Oswald with a Russian book, Russian records, or Rus­-

sian reading materials. Not surprisingly, no one saw Oswald with Russian literature nor

remembered that he studied the language while in Japan, where he was stationed un­-

til November 1958.

 

According to the Warren Commission, Oswald left Japan and reported for duty

at the Marine Corps Air Facility in Santa Ana, California, in December 1958. A month

later he took, and passed, a military language exam in the Russian language. Fellow Ma­-

rines who served with Oswald in Santa Ana remembered that he read Russian news­

papers, listened to Russian records, and was interested in everything Russian. How was

this possible? Where and how had Oswald studied and learned Russian?

In the spring of 1959 Oswald had a date with Rosaleen Quinn, the aunt of a fel­-

low Marine who had studied the Russian language for the past year using the Berlitz

method. She and Oswald conversed in Russian for over two hours and she was very

impressed with his command of the language. Oswald's proficiency in Russian, and his

interest in Russia, first surfaced at the Marine base in California in 1959-only 9 months

before his "defection" to the Soviet Union. But no one, including the Warren Commission,

ever determined how or where he learned Russian.

 

--from Harvey and Lee, pp. 4-5, Copyright © 2003 by John Armstrong

 

 

[Jim Hargrove]

7 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

"Dear James"

Have any of these facts been debunked yet?

--  Tommy

PS  How soon do you think you'll have enough evidence to "slam-dunkingly" convict someone, dead or alive, in a court of law?

I would think the easiest to do that to would be David Sanchez Morales and David Atlee Phillips.

How about you?

 

Back in an earlier version of the list when it had only 15 points, Paul Trejo tried to make a point-by-point rebuttal.  I responded point-by-point and Trejo only made generalizations thereafter.  Paul Brancato, at least, declared me the winner “fair and square.”  Tracy Parnell has a blog page mis-characterizing James Wilcott’s testimony, which I’ll be correcting as soon as I have time.

As to the planners, Phillips and Angleton are at the absolute top of my list, followed by Hunt and, probably Morales.    I also have some military suspicions, but the evidence is less clear, at least to me.
 

[W. Tracy Parnell]

3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Tracy Parnell has a blog page mis-characterizing James Wilcott’s testimony, which I’ll be correcting as soon as I have time.

 

I'll be looking forward to that Jim since I work very hard to verify any assertions I make, unlike Armstrong, and I just rechecked everything. The page has been updated with new information about Wilcott, namely that he became an antiwar activist and conspiracy theorist after he left the CIA. He was also under investigation by the CIA during his employment for associating with left-wing types. All of this undoubtedly had an effect on his beliefs as related to LHO.

I did remove one assertion made by the HSCA from my article because I did not feel it was properly supported. They said that Wilcott said the reason he did not go back and check disbursement records for evidence of an Oswald project was because he viewed the information he had received from other employees (about LHO being CIA) was shop talk and that he gave it little credence. While Wilcott did say that he understood some of the information he heard about LHO was of a speculative nature, he did not, in my reading of his testimony, say that was the reason he did not check disbursement records. So that has been removed.

http://wtracyparnell.blogspot.com/2017/03/james-wilcott.html

Edited March 23, 2017 by W. Tracy Parnell

[W. Tracy Parnell]

12 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

20 Facts Indicating the Oswald Project was Run by the CIA

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1389-hargrove-s-20-alternative-facts-for-those-who-prefer-their-conspiracies-devoid-of-any-reality

BTW, I am working on the Fonzi-Veciana-Bishop-Phillips story. It will be a blockbuster multi-part series using new documents. Look for the first part shortly.

[Sandy Larsen]

13 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

I'll be looking forward to that Jim since I work very hard to verify any assertions I make, unlike Armstrong, and I just rechecked everything. The page has been updated with new information about Wilcott, namely that he became an antiwar activist and conspiracy theorist after he left the CIA. He was also under investigation by the CIA during his employment for associating with left-wing types. All of this undoubtedly had an effect on his beliefs as related to LHO.

Tracy,

I read your piece and noticed that you felt the need to resort to character assassination.

Well, perhaps CTers do that too (I haven't paid attention). So I'll just leave it at that.

But I do want to address the things you list in your post:

• Wilcott became an antiwar activist.
  
  And that's a good thing, right?
   
• Wilcott became a conspiracy theorist after he left the CIA.
  
  Anybody who believes Wilcott's story is a conspiracy theorist. Wilcott apparently believed himself.
   
• Wilcott was investigated by the CIA for associating with left-wing types.
  
  Oh my god! He may have associated with people like me!

 

 

[Ray Mitcham]

44 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tracy,

I read your piece and noticed that you felt the need to resort to character assassination.

Well, perhaps CTers do that too (I haven't paid attention). So I'll just leave it at that.

But I do want to address the things you list in your post:

• Wilcott became an antiwar activist.
  
  And that's a good thing, right?
   
• Wilcott became a conspiracy theorist after he left the CIA.
  
  Anybody who believes Wilcott's story is a conspiracy theorist. Wilcott apparently believed himself.
   
• Wilcott was investigated by the CIA for associating with left-wing types.
  
  Oh my god! He may have associated with people like me!

 

 

He's definitely guilty in that case, Sandy! 

[Jeremy Bojczuk]

Jim,

If you think it "preposterous" that someone could reach Oswald's level of competence in Russian by self-study and two and a half years' immersion, you really should have a go at learning a language yourself some time. It isn't as difficult as you seem to think it is. What Oswald did is within the capabilities of most people, given sufficient motivation.

Your '20 Facts' list supports the relatively uncontroversial conclusion that Oswald (the real one, not the fictional 'Harvey') was connected in some way to one or another agency, perhaps including the CIA. Oswald's connections and his apparently false defection, along with every other aspect of the assassination, can be explained without invoking the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' fantasy. As for your remark about Kenneth Porter who "left his family to marry (and no doubt monitor)" Marina, you might want to run that one past a libel lawyer.

-----

Tommy,

"Elegantly" - thanks for that!

-----

George,

If you find the 'Harvey and Lee and Marguerite and Marguerite' fantasy believable, that's fine by me. I'm puzzled, however, by your remark about my using a "CIA argument". It's you, not me, who accepts the Warrren Report's account of Oswald's escape from Dealey Plaza. Using your logic, doesn't that make you the CIA stooge?

-----

David,

You go first. How much of Harvey and Lee have you read? Have you read it from cover to cover? How much of that particular book does one need to have read in order to qualify as having read it? I hope you aren't thinking of bringing out that old piece of religious fundamentalist sophistry: if you haven't immersed yourself in our holy book, you aren't justified in criticising our superstitious nonsense. Vincent Bugliosi tried that trick, claiming that those who hadn't read the Warren Report weren't justified in criticising the lone-nut theory.

-----

Sandy,

The apparent anomaly in the school records is explained in this thread, which includes a post addressed to you personally:

https://reopenkennedycase.forumotion.net/t1361-creating-mayhem-with-historical-records