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TWO MARGUERITE OSWALDS -- NEW DETAILS


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On 2/26/2017 at 1:19 AM, Alistair Briggs said:

Don't think you are confused. :) The (first) fight was with Neumeyer. A day later (maybe two days) Lee was 'sucker punched' (in retaliation?). Was his tooth actually knocked out? I'm not sure to be honest. Voebel doesn't sound overly sure imo when he says "I think he even lost a tooth from that. I think he was cut on the lip, and a tooth was knocked out."

True, but soon after the fight Voebel snapped this photo of LEE Harvey Oswald, which he eventually sold to LIFE magazine for $75:

Life%20Mag.jpg

It’s not as clear as I wish it was, but it sure looks like he might have a missing front tooth.

Tooth_CU.jpg

What is abundantly clear here is that even considering the value of 1964 dollars, Voebel should have gotten himself an agent before talking to LIFE!

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16 hours ago, Alistair Briggs said:

P.S. I still can't find the Lillian Sigouerette thing anywhere either. Even a Google search for the name 'Sigouerette' is no help - it returned only 43 hits and each and everyone were the line from Armstrong's book " She gave her sister's name as Lillian Sigouerette, when we know her sister's name was Lillian Murrett.". I wonder what the source of it was... even doing a search for it on here only gives 3 results and that 2 of those are from me and you, the other is from Jack White in 2010 where he quotes it from the book...

Jim, if you are able to perhaps ask John Armstrong for the source of the sisters thing and the source for the sigouerette thing that would be great.

Regards

P.S. I am very much appreciating our discourse here. I find the whole topic fascinating.

I think I’ll send John a link and see if he’ll read through this whole thread.  Several issues have come up that might interest him.  I hate to complain, but he can be an insufferable know-it-all when it comes to Oswald.    He often complains that people ask him to explain things that are detailed in Harvey and Lee.  Once, he insisted that I not ask him to explain anything to anyone unless that person had read his book—twice!  (It’s a thousand pages long, not including seven or eight hundred pages of docs and photos on the accompanying CD).  I’ve been studying and promoting his work for more than a decade, and even I can’t remember half the stuff that’s in that book!

In the meantime, one thing you might do is see if there are any additional Carro materials at the online John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University.  He has some stuff there from the National Archives not in the WC volumes, and the OCR is good enough to scan even some handwritten docs.  If you click on “Advanced Search,” you can use a wide range of search techniques.  In the results, note the leftmost “Notebook Title” and “Tab Title” columns.  They are specific summaries of the contents.  When you open a file,  easiest way to study it is just click the “Download” button near top right and view the pdf on your local machine.

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16 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Thanks Jim.

I think John's article would be improved if he were to provide evidence for some of the discrepancies he documents. Actually seeing a discrepancy is a powerful thing. Like the side-by-side photos of the real and fake Marguerites.

Place the videos of the Stripling assistant principal and student, and Robert's recollections of Stripling, beside the WC evidence showing that Oswald attended Beauregard the full year. Emphasize that the two schools are in different cities (states). That's a powerful argument.

 

Sounds like a good idea … but there is a complication, at least for me.  When designing these web pages, I don’t see how it is avoidable to consider that a HUGE percentage of web traffic now is on cell phones.  I try, with varying degrees of success, to set the site up so all the pages are at least readable on a phone.  The side by side pictures get awfully small, as do links set up in columns.  Sidebars become virtually unusable on a phone.  The solution by professionals for this problem is to set up an entirely different, but parallel, site for phone traffic.  I just don’t have the time (or current technical knowledge) to do it.

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3 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I think I’ll send John a link and see if he’ll read through this whole thread.  Several issues have come up that might interest him.  I hate to complain, but he can be an insufferable know-it-all when it comes to Oswald.    He often complains that people ask him to explain things that are detailed in Harvey and Lee.  Once, he insisted that I not ask him to explain anything to anyone unless that person had read his book—twice!  (It’s a thousand pages long, not including seven or eight hundred pages of docs and photos on the accompanying CD).  I’ve been studying and promoting his work for more than a decade, and even I can’t remember half the stuff that’s in that book!

In the meantime, one thing you might do is see if there are any additional Carro materials at the online John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University.  He has some stuff there from the National Archives not in the WC volumes, and the OCR is good enough to scan even some handwritten docs.  If you click on “Advanced Search,” you can use a wide range of search techniques.  In the results, note the leftmost “Notebook Title” and “Tab Title” columns.  They are specific summaries of the contents.  When you open a file,  easiest way to study it is just click the “Download” button near top right and view the pdf on your local machine.

There is nothing at Baylor that I can see, just more unsourced references to the same allegations about "Siguorette." However, I found the document where he apparently got it from at Mary Ferrell:

http://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=10461&relPageId=16&search="siguorette"

It is still unclear to me what the original source is, but it is apparently in the NYC records somewhere or was at one time. It is still completely obvious to me that "Siguorette" rhymes with Murret and that someone  just copied it down wrong.

As for Armstrong, someone should explain to him that when you write a book or even an article that people expect you to reference your statements. In this case, the nearest citation for his "Siguorette" claim refers the reader to Carro Exhibit 1 which we already know does not contain that name. I honestly wish I had kept a list of the mistakes, typos, incorrect or non-existent citations in the book. If I didn't know better, I would think that he was "jealous" of the information he had obtained while researching the book because of the time and cost involved and willfully tried to "make researchers work" to find it. And honestly, Jim's statements here do nothing to persuade me away from that idea.

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4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

What is abundantly clear here is that even considering the value of 1964 dollars, Voebel should have gotten himself an agent before talking to LIFE!

I agree. $75 seems way too small an amount for such a photo.

4 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

In the meantime, one thing you might do is see if there are any additional Carro materials at the online John Armstrong Collection at Baylor University.  He has some stuff there from the National Archives not in the WC volumes, and the OCR is good enough to scan even some handwritten docs.  If you click on “Advanced Search,” you can use a wide range of search techniques.  In the results, note the leftmost “Notebook Title” and “Tab Title” columns.  They are specific summaries of the contents.  When you open a file,  easiest way to study it is just click the “Download” button near top right and view the pdf on your local machine.

 

Thanks for the link, much appreciated. :)

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And by the way....

Here's the cumulative record of LHO's attendance at Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans. It's from page 817 of Warren Volume 22, and it's been up on HarveyandLee.net for a long time.
 

Beauregard%20Record.jpg

 

It's a little hard to read, but but if you look closely you can see that "53-54 Beauregard" and "54-55 Beauregard" are written near the upper left corner.  Below, the there is a row we've highlighted in yellow which shows the fall semester of 1953 and indicates that Oswald attended a General Science class, a Physical Education class and attended 89 days of school with only one absence. The second row is for the last half of the eighth grade (spring semester).  The third row shows final grades, absences, and tardies for the entire 53-54 school year (eighth grade).  The fourth, fifth, and sixth rows show the same information (fall and spring semesters and cumulative results) for the 1954-1944 school year (ninth grade).

This covers all the time that Lee HARVEY Oswald attended Stripling School in Fort Worth.  This one of the reasons Tracy works so hard to say all those witnesses from Stripling were wrong and/or ly1ng. 

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8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

It’s not as clear as I wish it was, but it sure looks like he might have a missing front tooth.

Tooth_CU.jpg


I was skeptical that a missing tooth could be detected. But after zooming way in, I now think it is fair to say that it looks like one of the top central incisors might be missing. The right one. But far, far, far from certain.

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8 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

Sounds like a good idea … but there is a complication, at least for me.  When designing these web pages, I don’t see how it is avoidable to consider that a HUGE percentage of web traffic now is on cell phones.  I try, with varying degrees of success, to set the site up so all the pages are at least readable on a phone.  The side by side pictures get awfully small, as do links set up in columns.  Sidebars become virtually unusable on a phone.  The solution by professionals for this problem is to set up an entirely different, but parallel, site for phone traffic.  I just don’t have the time (or current technical knowledge) to do it.


Here's a possibility: Have a sidebar with a title like "See the Actual Stripling vs Beauregard Evidence." If the reader wants to see the evidence, he will have to click a link.  In which case a NEW WINDOW opens that has the whole sidebar in it. I think that on a cell phone it will open in a NEW TAB.

I could find the HTML code for opening the link in a new window, if you need it. (I used to write HTML code for a web site I had.)

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:


Here's a possibility: Have a sidebar with a title like "See the Actual Stripling vs Beauregard Evidence." If the reader wants to see the evidence, he will have to click a link.  In which case a NEW WINDOW opens that has the whole sidebar in it. I think that on a cell phone it will open in a NEW TAB.

I could find the HTML code for opening the link in a new window, if you need it. (I used to write HTML code for a web site I had.)

I think you're right that we should have a link to the Beauregard cumulative record on the two moms page (the record is also reproduced on the Early Years H&L page but it should be on the Marguerites page as well.

I set up a textual link to the doc to open in a new tab in the seventh paragraph of the page at this Harvey and Lee mirror:

http://www.harveyandlee.comze.com/Moms/Moms.html

Do you think that's an improvement?

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6 hours ago, Jim Hargrove said:

And by the way....

Here's the cumulative record of LHO's attendance at Beauregard Junior High School in New Orleans. It's from page 817 of Warren Volume 22, and it's been up on HarveyandLee.net for a long time.
 

Beauregard%20Record.jpg

 

It's a little hard to read, but but if you look closely you can see that "53-54 Beauregard" and "54-55 Beauregard" are written near the upper left corner.  Below, the there is a row we've highlighted in yellow which shows the fall semester of 1953 and indicates that Oswald attended a General Science class, a Physical Education class and attended 89 days of school with only one absence. The second row is for the last half of the eighth grade (spring semester).  The third row shows final grades, absences, and tardies for the entire 53-54 school year (eighth grade).  The fourth, fifth, and sixth rows show the same information (fall and spring semesters and cumulative results) for the 1954-1944 school year (ninth grade).

This covers all the time that Lee HARVEY Oswald attended Stripling School in Fort Worth.  This one of the reasons Tracy works so hard to say all those witnesses from Stripling were wrong and/or ly1ng. 

 

I have a question... why was there only six months in the school year? In my whole lifetime, public school has been held nine months out of the year. Was it only six months back in the 1950s?

As is often the case with the Oswald case, an innocent explanation can be conceived. Here is what I came up with: Oswald attended half a semester at Stripling and then transferred to Beauregard. He attended the second half of the semester there. He couldn't catch up in most his classes, and so wasn't graded or given credit. But he did well enough in General Science that they allowed him to take the test for that class, and he got a score of 70. And of course he did well enough in phys ed to pass that class.

During that half a semester, he missed one day. So his number of absences was marked as 1. Whoever filled out the number of days attended knew that there were 90 days in the semester. So he took that number and subtracted the one absence to get the 89 days attended. He forgot to account for the first half of the semester that Oswald didn't attend.

I wish his first semester at Beauregard would have been more complete so that this alternate explanation wouldn't be so feasible.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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38 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

I think you're right that we should have a link to the Beauregard cumulative record on the two moms page (the record is also reproduced on the Early Years H&L page but it should be on the Marguerites page as well.

I set up a textual link to the doc to open in a new tab in the seventh paragraph of the page at this Harvey and Lee mirror:

http://www.harveyandlee.comze.com/Moms/Moms.html

Do you think that's an improvement?

Yes, that is a good way to do it. One problem though is that that there is no text to explain how to interpret the data. It would certainly help if one could read the column names in the document. I could make out only a few, like English, Reading, Spelling, Gen. Math.

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Sandy,

Regarding your question about what seemed to be a six month school year at Beauregard....

We all tend to forget how much time off students get.  Here's a copy of the current Beauregard school-year calendar from this source:

Calendar_Beau.jpg?dl=0

With some quick counting you can see students at Beauregard get more days off than there are actual school attendance days.  There are lengthy breaks for summer, Thanksgiving, New Years, Spring Break and other holidays, weekends are always off, and there are other holidays for teacher conferences and the like.

I quickly added up the school days for the Beauregard 2016-17 school year at the link above and came up with 170, a little less than half the 365 days in a full year,  pretty much matching your "six months in a school year" question above. If memory serves, some time ago David Josephs even dug up the 53-54 and 54-55 Beauregard calendars and came up with similar results: that the cumulative record for LHO represented two full years for Beauregard attendance.

This indicates that, with just a few absences, LEE Harvey Oswald attended Beauregard School in New Orleans continuously during the 1953-54 and 1954-55 school years, making it impossible for the same kid to have attended Stripling School in Fort Worth, Texas.

One of the distinctions between American-born LEE Oswald and Russian-speaking HARVEY Oswald is that Lee's school attendance was generally quite good, while HARVEY's was spotty at best, even getting him into legal difficulties in NYC.

Edited by Jim Hargrove
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2 minutes ago, Jim Hargrove said:

This indicates that, with just a few absences, LEE Harvey Oswald attended Beauregard School in New Orleans continuously during the 1953-54 and 1954-55 school years, making it impossible for the same kid to have attended Stripling School in Fort Worth, Texas.

And that is why we know that the witnesses are wrong (BTW, most are not lying but simply mistaken) But with the documentary evidence right in front of him, guess what Jim will believe?

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30 minutes ago, W. Tracy Parnell said:

And that is why we know that the witnesses are wrong (BTW, most are not lying but simply mistaken) But with the documentary evidence right in front of him, guess what Jim will believe?

Tracy,

I agree with Jim that Stripling's assistant principal is telling the truth. If I were on your side, I would choose to explain the discrepancy the way I did in my prior post.

Don't you wonder how it is that LHO took so few classes (only 2 out of 6) in his first semester at Beauregard?

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1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Tracy,

I agree with Jim that Stripling's assistant principal is telling the truth. If I were on your side, I would choose to explain the discrepancy the way I did in my prior post.

Don't you wonder how it is that LHO took so few classes (only 2 out of 6) in his first semester at Beauregard?

I don't have to explain anything that someone says with no proof to back it up, especially 30-40 years after the fact. If Kudlaty was so concerned that the FBI "misappropriated" records, why did he wait to say anything? Answer-He never believed anything was amiss, but then Armstrong got to him during his "witness recruitment program" and convinced him he was an important part of history and who doesn't want to hear that?

On the bright side, from Jim's perspective anyway, I see he has a new H&L devotee in you Sandy, and you are offering to do website work for him as well. So welcome aboard.

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