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Were TSBD employees Jacob, Holt, and Simmons misidentified as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed?


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18 minutes ago, Michael Walton said:

Can someone  tell me what the point of this thread is? l like  the  way Bob said "for those unfamiliar..." but I still don't  understand  what all of this has  to  do  with  the  case.

Michael,

It's totally irrelevant.

--  Tommy :sun

Edit:  Except for the remote possibility that, through a slow and laborious process of elimination, we might be able to finally determine where Calvery was standing during the motorcade, and whether or not she was the "Running Woman" in Couch-Darnell, and whether or not Shelly and Lovelady were lying about her having informed them of JFK's being hit, etc.

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13 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Dear Michael,

It's totally irrelevant.

--  Tommy :sun

Edit:  Except for the remote possibility that, through a slow and laborious process of elimination, we might be able to finally determine where Gloria Calvery was standing during the motorcade, and whether or not she was the "Running Woman" in Couch-Darnell, and whether or not Shelly and Lovelady were lying about her having informed them of JFK's being hit, etc.  And whether or not the FBI fabricated Calvery's and Hick's and Reeds, and Westbrooks', and Dishong's statements for some mysterious reason, etc.

edited and bumped for Michael

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16 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Good morning, Thomas!

May I be the first to say, bloody brilliant bit of deductive logic! Yes, Gloria Jeanne Holt's high school photo does bear a strong resemblance to the woman ID'ed as Karan Hicks, and the woman ID'ed as Gloria Calvery could very well be a native American whose name might just be Stella Mae Jacob. 

Interestingly, Nelson is the only one of the three to not say which side of Elm she was standing on, while Jacob and Holt both stated they were standing on the south side of Elm.

Just to clarify things for anyone new to this case, the group of women ID'ed on the north side of Elm as Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks and Carol Reed also included two other women named Karen Westbrook and June Dishong. Out of these five women, only June Dishong failed to give a statement to the FBI. While Calvery, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed each list the other three women as being in their group, all four women omit June Dishong from this group, even though she is clearly seen standing with these four women in the Zapruder still.

Of course, you realize it is not just Calvery that is misidentified but also the group of four (or five) she is standing in, and the entire group must be removed from the location east of the Stemmons sign.. The same goes for Stella Mae Jacob's group. Is there a group of four (or five) unidentified women on the north (or south) side of Elm St. that might be Calvery and her friends?

Of course, if Jacob, Holt and Nelson are part of the group of five women on the north side of Elm (ID'ed as Calvery, Hicks, Reed, Westbrook and Dishong) why would all three of these women fail to mention they were part of a group of five women that could have included Westbrook and Dishong?

So, we have seven women giving statements to the FBI and six of them clearly state which side (north or south) of Elm St. they are standing on. In each group, there is no disagreement as to which side of the street that group is on.

Are we to believe six women cannot tell north from south? Where are we to find Calvery, Westbrook, Hicks, Reed and possibly Dishong now?

Can anyone say now, with a straight face, there has not been evidence tampering by the FBI?

Robert,

Which begs the question, "Did the FBI fabricate all of their statements because they, or at least one of them, were somehow involved in the assassination?"

Why else would the FBI fabricate their statements, Robert?

--  Tommy :sun

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On 02/03/2017 at 5:56 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Like Thierry Speth's alleged "Gloria Jean Calvery," 23-year-old TSBD employee Stella Mae Jacob, being a Native American, was (probably) dark-complected. Stella and two of her colleagues, Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharon Nelson (maiden name: Simmons) said in their FBI statements that they watched the motorcade together, and that they stood at the curb on the south [sic] side of Elm Street.  I believe an honest mistake was made and that their FBI statements should have said "north side of Elm," instead.  I base that belief not only on the fact that Jacob, being Native American, must have been dark-skinned (like "Calvery"), but also because Gloria Jeanne Holt bears a striking resemblance to the person identified (by Speth?) as "Karan Hicks." 

 

(Disregard the "Opps!  This Site Has Expired!" message, and scroll down to see two photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt.):

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13242379-minor-witnesses

 

Left to Right: Jacob, Holt, Simmons-Nelson ???

 

"I, Stella Mae Jacob, freely furnish the following voluntary statement to Eugene F. Petrakis and A. Raymond Switzer, who have identified themselves to me as Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.  I am an Indian female and reside at 508 South Marsalis, Dallas, Texas.  I was born on May 31, 1943 in Wright City, Oklahoma, and have been employed at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm, Dallas, Texas, as typist in the billing department since the 1st of July, 1963.  At approximately 12 :00 p .m . on November 22, 1963. I left the Depository building  and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south aide of Elm Street to await the presidential procession . I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs. Nelson, and [Gloria] Jeanne Holt, both employees of the Texas School Book Depository. I was still standing on the curb at the time president John F . Kennedy was shot I do not recall seeing lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and did not see him at the time of the  asassination.  I did not observe any strangers in the building on the morning of November 22, 1963. Following the assassination of the president, I tried to return to work in the Texas School Book Depository, but was told by other employees that no one would be allowed in the building so I did not return to work that day. I did not personally know Lee Harvey Oswald althought I recall seeing him on several occasions in the lunchroom. I have read this two page statement, initialed each page and each correction and find it true and correct to the best o£ my knowledge." /s/ Stella Mae Jacob        

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

 

--  Tommy :sun

Hi Thomas

I'm having trouble still with the Quote/Reply function and it keeps showing the 1st page of this thread. Just ignore everything above this.

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"Robert,

Which begs the question, "Did the FBI fabricate all of their statements because they, or at least one of them, were somehow involved in the assassination?"

Why else would the FBI fabricate their statements, Robert?"

I'm thinking much the same thing you are, Thomas, but, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why they would go to such elaborate ends to conceal the location of one woman, and how all that ties in to the cover up.

 

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47 minutes ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

"Robert,

Which begs the question, "Did the FBI fabricate all of their statements because they, or at least one of them, were somehow involved in the assassination?"

Why else would the FBI fabricate their statements, Robert?"

I'm thinking much the same thing you are, Thomas, but, for the life of me, I cannot figure out why they would go to such elaborate ends to conceal the location of one woman, and how all that ties in to the cover up.

Robert,

OK.  Fair enough.  Unless Shelley's friend, Gloria Calvery, was much farther away than "halfway down Elm Street," and the evil FBI "placed" her and her friends close enough (in their evil little minds) to plausibly(?) be able to run up to the TSBD or the "island" in a timely-enough manner to plausibly be able to confer with Shelley and Lovelady (?) in a timely enough manner so that they, in turn, could plausibly "see" Vicki Adams when and where they claimed to have seen her -- or not.  I mean, "I wouldn't swear to it."

--  Tommy :sun

 

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On 02/03/2017 at 5:56 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Like Thierry Speth's alleged "Gloria Jean Calvery," 23-year-old TSBD employee Stella Mae Jacob, being a Native American, was (probably) dark-complected. Stella and two of her colleagues, Gloria Jeanne Holt and Sharon Nelson (maiden name: Simmons) said in their FBI statements that they watched the motorcade together, and that they stood at the curb on the south [sic] side of Elm Street.  I believe an honest mistake was made and that their FBI statements should have said "north side of Elm," instead.  I base that belief not only on the fact that Jacob, being Native American, must have been dark-skinned (like "Calvery"), but also because Gloria Jeanne Holt bears a striking resemblance to the person identified (by Speth?) as "Karan Hicks." 

 

(Disregard the "Opps!  This Site Has Expired!" message, and scroll down to see two photos of Gloria Jeanne Holt.):

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13242379-minor-witnesses

 

Left to Right: Jacob, Holt, Simmons-Nelson ???

 

"I, Stella Mae Jacob, freely furnish the following voluntary statement to Eugene F. Petrakis and A. Raymond Switzer, who have identified themselves to me as Special Agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation.  I am an Indian female and reside at 508 South Marsalis, Dallas, Texas.  I was born on May 31, 1943 in Wright City, Oklahoma, and have been employed at the Texas School Book Depository, 411 Elm, Dallas, Texas, as typist in the billing department since the 1st of July, 1963.  At approximately 12 :00 p .m . on November 22, 1963. I left the Depository building  and walked down toward the Stemmons expressway underpass west of the building approximately fifty yards and took up a position on the curb on the south aide of Elm Street to await the presidential procession . I was accompanied by Sharon Simmons, now Mrs. Nelson, and [Gloria] Jeanne Holt, both employees of the Texas School Book Depository. I was still standing on the curb at the time president John F . Kennedy was shot I do not recall seeing lee Harvey Oswald at any time on November 22, 1963, and did not see him at the time of the  asassination.  I did not observe any strangers in the building on the morning of November 22, 1963. Following the assassination of the president, I tried to return to work in the Texas School Book Depository, but was told by other employees that no one would be allowed in the building so I did not return to work that day. I did not personally know Lee Harvey Oswald althought I recall seeing him on several occasions in the lunchroom. I have read this two page statement, initialed each page and each correction and find it true and correct to the best o£ my knowledge." /s/ Stella Mae Jacob        

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

 

--  Tommy :sun

Hi Thomas

Once again, ignore everything above this line as I am still having problems with the Quote/Reply function.

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Hi Thomas

If it was just one woman we were looking for it might not be so bad, but we have to find four women unaccounted for; unless we assume Calvery, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed were not actually together as a group.

I was thinking about what Pat Speer said about the confusion regarding the two Elm Streets. Is it possible Calvery, and maybe the rest of her group, were watching the motorcade from the Elm St. extension?

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On 3/3/2017 at 1:56 PM, Robert Prudhomme said:

Hi Thomas

If it was just one woman we were looking for it might not be so bad, but we have to find four women unaccounted for; unless we assume Calvery, Westbrook, Hicks and Reed were not actually together as a group.

I was thinking about what Pat Speer said about the confusion regarding the two Elm Streets. Is it possible Calvery, and maybe the rest of her group, were watching the motorcade from the Elm St. extension?

Robert,

Based on what the four women allegedly said in their FBI statements, they were standing on Elm Street proper, not the Elm Street Extension.  The critical phrase in Calvery's, Hick's, and Westbrook's statements is "halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass," and in Reed's case, "about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass."  There's no wa they could have been talking about the Elm Street Extension.  

 

Gloria Calvery's FBI statement has her saying she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass."  Calvery said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "shot".

Mrs. James Daniel (Karan) Hicks' FBI statement has her saying said she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass."  Hicks said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "explosion."

Carol Reed's FBI statement has her saying she "was standing on the curb of Elm Street about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass."  Reed didn't say where the limo was in relation to her when she heard the first "shot" or "explosion".

Karen Westbrook's FBI statement has her saying she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass."  Westbrook said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "explosion."

 

Question:  What is the general JFK-researcher consensus regarding where the limo was on Elm Street (and in which Z-Frame) when the first shot rang out? 

 

--  Tommy :sun

 

PS  --  As far as I know, none of the above ladies were every officially asked how many shots or "explosions" they heard, nor the direction said "shots" or "explosions" came from.  Bummer.  That makes it hard to determine which "1st shot / explosion" they're referring to when the limo "was almost directly in front of" them.  The shot some people believe came as early as Z-135 or so, or one that came many frames later, around frame 158, or maybe frame 190, or maybe ... ?

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Robert,

Based on what the four women allegedly said in their FBI statements, they were standing on Elm Street proper, not the Elm Street Extension.  The critical phrase in Calvery's, Hick's, and Westbrook's statements is "halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass," and in Reed's case, "about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass."  There's no way they could have been talking about the Elm Street Extension.  

Gloria Calvery's FBI statement has her saying she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass."  Calvery said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "shot".

Mrs. James Daniel (Karan) Hicks' FBI statement has her saying said she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass."  Hicks said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "explosion."

Carol Reed's FBI statement has her saying she "was standing on the curb of Elm Street about mid-way between the Texas School Book Depository Building and the Elm Street Railroad overpass."  Reed didn't say where the limo was in relation to her when she heard the first "shot" or "explosion".

Karen Westbrook's FBI statement has her saying she was "at a point on the north edge of Elm Street about halfway between Houston Street and the Triple Underpass."  Westbrook said the limo was almost directly in front of her when she heard the first "explosion."

Question:  What is the general JFK-researcher consensus regarding where the limo was on Elm Street (and in which Z-Frame) when the first shot rang out? 

--  Tommy :sun

PS  --  As far as I know, none of the above ladies were every officially asked how many shots or "explosions" they heard, nor the direction said "shots" or "explosions" came from.  Bummer.  That makes it hard to determine which "1st shot / explosion" they're referring to when the limo "was almost directly in front of" them.  The shot some people believe came as early as Z-135 or so, or one that came many frames later, maybe around Z-frame 208?

Assassin witness, John Templin (right next to "Big Girl" in the Z-film) and his business acquaintance, Ernest Brandt (wearing a brown hat right next to Templin in the Z-film), were standing between our "Big Girl" (aka Ms. "L") and Karen Westbrook.  John Templin said he heard three shots, and that the first one occurred when the limo was 30 feet past him.  He said he saw JFK splay out one of his arms at that point, and that his view of JFK's other arm was blocked by JFK's head.  The 1st shot Templin heard must have been the one that hit or exited JFK's throat, which shot was pretty much captured by Ike Altgens in his famous "Altgen's 6" photograph.  John Templin also said he saw JFK get shot in the head in one of the ensuing shots.

In Chapter 7b: More Pieces in the Plaza, Pat Speer (who seems to believe, based on his analysis of witnesses' statements, that the first shot was heard between Z-190 and Z-224) wrote,

"[The following is] [f]rom Don Roberdeau's 6-08-09 post on the alt.assassination.jfk forum, in which he [Roberdeau] recounts Templin's 6-28-95 Oral History interview with the Sixth Floor Museum --  '[...] Templin said the first blast/shockwave originated from his left, his 2nd remembered blast/shockwave came from his right towards the railroad yard and hit JFK in head and sounded different, and Templin's 3rd remembered blast/shockwave came from his left,  with the total shots sequence lasting about 6 seconds... Templin thought his 1st remembered blast/shockwave was a motorcycle backfire. [...]'"

Speer goes on to say, "Afterwards, Templin provided a 6-28-95 Sixth Floor Museum oral-histories interview and detailed that 'his' 1st blast/shockwave occurred when the limo was 30' past himself.

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

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19 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

betzner_3_crop.jpg

Yes, Robin.  I realize that (Native American) Stella Jakob, and (blond-haired) Gloria Jeanne Holt, and (probably) Sharon Simmons can be seen standing together "in front of" the Stemmons Freeway sign.

The big question now is:  Where are Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks, Carol Reed. Karen Westbrook. and June Dishong?  But especially Gloria Calvery.  Where is Gloria Calvery?

--  Tommy :sun

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3 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Yes, Robin.  I realize that Native American Stella Jakob, and blond-haired Gloria Jeanne Holt, and (probably) Sharon Simmons can be seen standing together in front of the Stemmons Freeway sign.

I still have not seen convincing proof from you Thomas regarding your identification of the 3-woman as  Native American Stella Jakob, and blond-haired Gloria Jeanne Holt, and (probably) Sharon Simmons  ????

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