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Were TSBD employees Jacob, Holt, and Simmons misidentified as Calvery, Hicks, and Reed?


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59 minutes ago, Robin Unger said:

Karen Westbrook identified two bystanders.

She identified herself as the woman wearing the blue scarf.

and she also identified the red headed woman standing next to her as Gloria Calvery.

 

 

digitalcollections12.jpg

 

Mr. SHELLEY - Gloria Calvary from South-Western Publishing Co. ran back up there crying and said "The President has been shot" and Billy Lovelady and myself took off across the street to that little, old island and we stopped there for a minute.

DARNELL80.jpg

 

Robin,

 

The problem is, Mrs. Westbrook-Scranton tried to identify herself and her "red haired" friend from behind and fifty-five years after the fact.

(It's interesting that she wasn't sure who the dark-haired gal was, don't you think?)

Lot's of people have red or redish-colored hair, Robin.  If Westbrook-Scranton remembers correctly that her old pal had "red" hair, then it's a shame that the real Gloria Calvery was wearing a headscarf that day.

Do you really think that long-faced gal wearing the blue headscarf is the same person as square or round-faced Westbrook-Scranton?

 

--  TG

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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I can only go by the information provided by Karen Westbrook

she was there on the day, we weren't.

If you have a problem with her story, perhaps you should contact the 6th floor museum to see  if they can put you in contact with Karen .

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19 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:
21 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Now look how tall Bart's Gloria is:

 

DARNELL80a.jpg.7404efa09d28549ec8fa02232

 

Wow, look how tall Bart's Westbrook is! She must be close to 6 ft herself if that is Bart's Gloria standing next to her.

 

(Gee, I wonder why Bart's Gloria isn't wearing those glasses she ALWAYS wears.)

 

 

Sandy,

Being fair-minded but ignorant and lazy, I gotta ask this question: were they walking on a level sidewalk there, or on the slight slope that comprises the right side of the Grassy Knoll near the curb?

 

Tommy,

You are right to ask that that question. I have since found superior height-related evidence and now see I made a mistake. I now know that the woman on the right in the above photo is standing further back than the other two, and is raised up due to the incline of the grassy area. I had earlier thought the women were standing much nearer each other.

The superior evidence I found (posted by Robin) shows that the three woman are roughly the same height. No standouts.

 

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12 hours ago, Robin Unger said:

digitalcollections12.jpg

 

 

Here's another good picture that shows that those three woman were roughly the same height. If that woman with blondish hair (strawberry blond?) is Gloria Calvery, then these woman are all very tall, about 5' 8". Because we know that Gloria Calvery was about that tall. (Due to her son saying that his father was 6' tall, and their wedding announcement showing her to be about 3" shorter... 4" shorter when taking her high heels into account.)

Actually, ALL FIVE of these woman are about the same height. Are we to believe there were FIVE woman of Gloria Calvery's unusual height (5' 8") standing together? Of curse not. That is not Gloria Calvery standing in that photo. These are all average height woman.

Karen Westbrook remembered wrong.

(BTW, thanks for posting these photos Robin.)

 

 

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Just another opinion. I too believe Sandy and Tommy may have cracked it, with the two on the stairs in Darnell, if you watch the crowd on the sidewalk in Couch in slowmo they are nowhere to be seen. So as others as suggested it is/was possible to move that fast, IF something scared the life out of them. Both Smith and Baker mentioned the screaming woman, it may have been one of them(instead of the first running woman we were focusing on), and since she ran towards that building it may even have given Baker the idea to look at it. Baker did not go straight in like the WC wanted to promote, he parked up and took in the happenings down the street, he even mentions it to them but they ignored that and went with the beeline to the entrance scenario(someone recently referred to it in another thread, it's not true). He stopped, he observed and he listened and again, both he and Smith mention this woman, Smith went to where she came from, Baker took in interest in where she was heading, perhaps. 

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A strange thing happened during the SFM's interview with Woodward, as you know there's a great shot of her in Altgens, full frontal, big as life when you blow it up but they never used it in the interview to ID her, instead they use a frame from Zap'. Why? Who knows? I thought it might be because whilst Kennedy is grasping for his throat(or w/e) she cannot smile wide enough (awkward) but there is another possible reason and I'm not going to push it but, it might be because it's not actually her. So, I'm a bit skeptical of the Wesbrook ID too and I don't see much of a likeness to be frank. Those SFM interviews are too family orientated, too cosy, they rarely discover something they do not already know, unlike us skeptical types who like to fish and dig. Cheers.

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24 minutes ago, Clive Largey said:

Just another opinion. I too believe Sandy and Tommy may have cracked it, with the two on the stairs in Darnell, if you watch the crowd on the sidewalk in Couch in slowmo they are nowhere to be seen. So as others as suggested it is/was possible to move that fast, IF something scared the life out of them. Both Smith and Baker mentioned the screaming woman, it may have been one of them(instead of the first running woman we were focusing on), and since she ran towards that building it may even have given Baker the idea to look at it. Baker did not go straight in like the WC wanted to promote, he parked up and took in the happenings down the street, he even mentions it to them but they ignored that and went with the beeline to the entrance scenario(someone recently referred to it in another thread, it's not true). He stopped, he observed and he listened and again, both he and Smith mention this woman, Smith went to where she came from, Baker took in interest in where she was heading, perhaps. 

Clive,

Thanks for the feedback.

You're mentioning some things I hadn't thought of but which do make sense.

I believe Calvery said that a policeman (Baker?) went into the building just before she (and her all-in-white colleague?) did. 

Also, if I remember correctly, Joe Molina said he encountered Calvery and another woman with her in the "lobby" a few seconds after the assassination, and he also said that a policeman (Baker?) entered the building at about the same time as that encounter.

--  TG

Edited by Thomas Graves
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8 minutes ago, Clive Largey said:

A strange thing happened during the SFM's interview with Woodward, as you know there's a great shot of her in Altgens, full frontal, big as life when you blow it up but they never used it in the interview to ID her, instead they use a frame from Zap'. Why? Who knows? I thought it might be because whilst Kennedy is grasping for his throat(or w/e) she cannot smile wide enough (awkward) but there is another possible reason and I'm not going to push it but, it might be because it's not actually her. So, I'm a bit skeptical of the Wesbrook ID too and I don't see much of a likeness to be frank. Those SFM interviews are too family orientated, too cosy, they rarely discover something they do not already know, unlike us skeptical types who like to fish and dig. Cheers.

 

Clive,

Woodward, or Westbrook?

--  TG

 

Edited by Thomas Graves
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Woodward yes Tommy, the journalist, stood just a liitle east of your focus group, the interviewed her on stage a few years back and IIRC as I hope I do, they didn't use the Altgens image which I found puzzling and curious. More info... I haven't seen an image of Woodward that quite matches the face of her in Altgens, could be her though, as for "Westbrook" in "Darnell" on the grass, that too doesn't quite look like the real Westbrook in that HS photo. Not to me at least.

Edited by Clive Largey
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I know Sandy for one has problems with Baker going straight inside, I at this time still do not but regardless, if you were him and she was in your reach wouldn't you stop for a second to ask her what she saw at least?  As has been pointed out, she must have ran very fast, both of them and stopped right on the steps, as soon as she does he moves toward the entrance. The timing is almost too good. How could you ignore her? She clearly saw something you did not.

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25 minutes ago, Clive Largey said:

Woodward yes Tommy, the journalist, stood just a liitle east of your focus group, the interviewed her on stage a few years back and IIRC as I hope I do, they didn't use the Altgens image which I found puzzling and curious. More info... I haven't seen an image of Woodward that quite matches the face of her in Altgens, could be her though, as for "Westbrook" in "Darnell" on the grass, that too doesn't quite look like the real Westbrook in that HS photo. Not to me at least.

Clive,

If I remember correctly, Woodward was mis-identified by researchers for a long, long time.  IIRC, she's not the pretty lady sprawled on the grass and wearing sunglasses.  Can't remember the name of that woman right now ...

FWIW.

--  TG

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Okay, look I've just scanned the SFM interview with Westbook and they have done the exact same thing with her. Now Fagin even mentions these very discussions here and how researchers are trying to identifiy those ladies so he must know of the "Darnell" frames with the three girls but does he use them? Of course not, why would he? Or why wouldn't he, chaps? He did the same for Woodward, like I said above, a  lovely shot of her face in Altgens but it's not used. Anyone else see a pattern? Okay Tommy yes, no confusion, she's in Algens and on page 6 here Sandy posted a Z gif where she's named and yes agreed, not the woman on the grass in the aftermath, Woodward, I'll still call her that for now, did not move, you can, if you look close, pick her out in Couch reacting to something much later, she's near the lampost with the man in the hardhat, she didn't run like those who were closer to the limo.

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 9:41 in, like Westbrook she's Identified from the back... although the latter gets "confirmation" from Willis5 which almost made me choke, it's so bad. Westbrook also knew the shots came from the building immeadiatly, right after she went there and saw all the commotion. :)

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20 minutes ago, Clive Largey said:

 9:41 in, like Westbrook she's Identified from the back... although the latter gets "confirmation" from Willis5 which almost made me choke, it's so bad. Westbrook also knew the shots came from the building immeadiatly, right after she went there and saw all the commotion. :)

Clive,

This is interesting stuff.

If I understand you correctly (I haven't watched this video, yet), Fagin and guests have messed up at least twice on the "big screen":  with Woodward a few years ago, and more recently with Westbrook.

Hmm.

--  TG

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