Was "Full-Figured" Gloria Calvery "Running Woman"?

[Alistair Briggs]

14 hours ago, Robert Prudhomme said:

Bill

Do you believe the woman on the left was Gloria Calvery?

Do you also believe Running Woman was Gloria Calvery?

Robert,

am I correct in thinking that you believe the one on the left is actually Stella Mae Jacob? Would you at all be interested in writing to her and asking her to confirm it is her?

Regards

[Sandy Larsen]

[duplicate]

Edited March 4, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

On 3/3/2017 at 11:28 AM, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

As a counter-argument I'd say that, unlike her "dress up" high school and wedding photographs, the 11/22/63 photo of Gloria Calvery was "informal / casual" in that she was probably wearing her work clothes that day, and the poor thing probably wasn't expecting to be photographed. Least of all from the rear. 

Another thing I've just noticed is that in Betzner 3, "big girl" has dark-colored hair and looks like she might be wearing glasses.

Regardless, we know that the guy next to her was with the guy next to him (he's not visible in Betzner 3), so how do you like my theory that those four headscarf-wearing gals were together?

--  Tommy

Is it mere coincidence that five women standing together are wearing scarves, when most the other women aren't? Odds are pretty slim IMO. But why would multiple women friends decide to wear scarves together? Maybe that's something women do. Or did back then.

I'm sure that young women would do something like that... remembering back on how my sister was as a teen.

Regardless, it does seem that Calvery must be among this group of women. After all, her group said the limo was right there in front of them when the shots rang out. (The first shot? I forget.) If Calvery isn't among this group, then the affidavits are way, way wrong.

 

[Thomas Graves]

34 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

[absolutely and literally nothing, actually]

UPDATE!!!!! -- I've done some more "research" and have come to the tentative conclusion that those four headscarf-wearing ladies probably were not together, after all.

How you like dem apples?

--  Tommy

PS  Five?  I count only four in the Z-frame.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

1 minute ago, Thomas Graves said:

UPDATE!!!!! -- I've done some more "research" and have come to the tentative conclusion that those four headscarf-wearing ladies probably were not together, after all.

How you like dem apples?

--  Tommy

Well that will blow my "low odds of coincidence" opinion!

But I hope you've sniffed out yet another great find.

[Bill Miller]

54 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Regardless, it does seem that Calvery must be among this group of women. After all, her group said the limo was right there in front of them when the shots rang out. (The first shot? I forget.) If Calvery isn't among this group, then the affidavits are way, way wrong.

Actually, Calvery said the President was almost in front of her ........

[Thomas Graves]

5 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

5 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

UPDATE!!!!! -- I've done some more "research" and have come to the tentative conclusion that those four headscarf-wearing ladies probably were not together, after all.

How you like dem apples?

--  Tommy

Well that will blow my "low odds of coincidence" opinion!

But I hope you've sniffed out yet another great find.

But wait a second.  

I just realized that the so-called logic I used in my "research" on the three headscarf-wearing ladies labeled (from L. to R. in the Z-Frame) as Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney, was circular or something in nature.

What I did find out is that Jane Berry and Betty Thornton both worked for the Scott-Foresman Company in the TSBD, and they said in their FBI statements that they went together about 1/3 the way down Elm Street to watch the motorcade.  Peggy Burney, on the other hand, worked in the DalTex Building for Abraham Zapruder's "Jennifer Juniors" clothing company, and although she wasn't asked by the FBI to give a statement (probably because she didn't work in the TSBD), she did, many years later, release to the press what she'd written (as kinda "therapy" I suppose) on 11/22/63 about her assassination experience.  In these "memoirs" she made no mention of having  walked down Elm Street with anyone else or having watched the motorcade with anyone else for that matter, so I think we have to assume that she was a "singletary," or maybe that she went there with Zapruder and Sitzman and was "abandoned" by them when they went to go stand on the "pillar"?.

Regardless, none of this proves that the "Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney" that Thierry "Fake News" Speth, or Don Roberdeau, or Robin Unger labeled as such (in the big color Z-frame which has been posted on this thread), really WERE  ... Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney.

D'oh.

--  Tommy

Edit:  So, getting back-on-track here: What are the chances that, even though only two of the four gals in "Big Girl's" group ("Berry and Thornton") knew each other (and therefore might have influenced each other clothing-wise), all four of them were wearing head scarves?

.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

38 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

What I did find out is that Jane Berry and Betty Thornton .... said in their FBI statements that they went together about 1/3 the way down Elm Street to watch the motorcade.

About 1/3 the way? Okay, now I know those affidavits weren't written by the witnesses. Well.... I suspect it. I don't believe for a minute that two women used the fraction 1/3 to describe where they were standing. I doubt that even one of them did. I think they were asked where they were standing, and some FBI guy tried to figure out where they were relative to the others. The FBI then typed an affidavit complete with addresses and a statement where the FBI figured the person must have been standing. (A third the way, half the way, etc.) Then the affidavit for the next person was written, often borrowing words, phrases, and sentences from the affidavit of someone standing with that person.

Call me a sexist, but I think most the women I've known would have a hard time saying how far down the road something is. Just like I'd have a hard time saying what size clothing a woman or child (or even another man) might wear. They're just not things we respectively do.

[Thomas Graves]

17 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

About 1/3 the way? Okay, now I know those affidavits weren't written by the witnesses. Well.... I suspect it. I don't believe for a minute that two women used the fraction 1/3 to describe where they were standing. I doubt that even one of them did. I think they were asked where they were standing, and some FBI guy tried to figure out where they were relative to the others. The FBI then typed an affidavit complete with addresses and a statement where the FBI figured the person must have been standing. (A third the way, half the way, etc.) Then the affidavit for the next person was written, often borrowing words, phrases, and sentences from the affidavit of someone standing with that person.

Call me a sexist, but I think most the women I've known would have a hard time saying how far down the road something is. Just like I'd have a hard time saying what size clothing a woman or child (or even another man) might wear. They're just not things we respectively do.

Ya know Sandy, I was writing from memory there.  I'll have to go back and check what their FBI statements said.  Don't get all paranoid on me quite yet.  I probably should have said, "One of them said she was 1/3 ..."  But I might even be wrong about that.  Like I said, I was going from memory.  

Sheesh.

--  Tommy

PS  Have you read their FBI statements?  I'm talking about Jane Berry and Betty Thornton, here.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

Edited March 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

But wait a second.  

I just realized that the so-called logic I used in my "research" on the three headscarf-wearing ladies labeled (from L. to R. in the Z-Frame) as Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney, was circular or something in nature.

What I did find out is that Jane Berry and Betty Thornton both worked for the Scott-Foresman Company in the TSBD, and they said in their FBI statements that they went together about 1/3 the way down Elm Street to watch the motorcade.  Peggy Burney, on the other hand, worked in the DalTex Building for Abraham Zapruder's "Jennifer Juniors" clothing company, and although she wasn't asked by the FBI to give a statement (probably because she didn't work in the TSBD), she did, many years later, release to the press what she'd written (as kinda "therapy" I suppose) on 11/22/63 about her assassination experience.  In these "memoirs" she made no mention of having  walked down Elm Street with anyone else or having watched the motorcade with anyone else for that matter, so I think we have to assume that she was a "singletary," or maybe that she went there with Zapruder and Sitzman and was "abandoned" by them when they went to go stand on the "pillar"?.

Regardless, none of this proves that the "Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney" that Thierry "Fake News" Speth, or Don Roberdeau, or Robin Unger labeled as such (in the big color Z-frame which has been posted on this thread), really WERE  ... Jane Berry, Betty Thornton, and Peggy Burney.

D'oh.

--  Tommy

 

Edit:  So, getting back-on-track here: What are the chances that, even though only two of the four gals in "Big Girl's" group ("Berry and Thornton") knew each other (and therefore might have influenced each other clothing-wise), all four of them were wearing head scarves?

edited and bumped for Sandy Larsen

[Thomas Graves]

Big-time correction on my part:

 In their FBI statements, neither Jane Berry nor Betty Thornton said they were standing down on Elm Street ("1/3" or "1/2" of the way between Houston and the Triple Underpass, or whatever).  

Both of them said they were standing with each other "on Elm Street [Extension???] in front of the TSBD."

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

My bad.

--  Tommy

Edit:  And then again, there's Peggy Burney.

Peggy Burney (11-23-63 first-person account published in the Dallas Times-Herald) "I saw the President die. I was standing at the curb on Elm about a third the way from Houston Street near the overpass. When the President's car made the curve around the corner, he was smiling and waving. He was not standing, as I heard some reports say later. He was sitting, but he was happy and Jackie was happy and smiling as they passed. The car had passed about 15 feet beyond me when I heard the first shot. I did not realize it was a shot; I thought it was a backfire. The President ducked; instinctively I told myself 'something is happening,' but nobody knew what. Then I heard a second shot. I noticed that Jackie didn't duck - I could no longer see the President. The car momentarily stopped, then veered slightly to the right and speeded [sic] off. People around me were screaming; some were falling to the ground. I could not tell whether they were hit, or not - or just dodging. There was pandemonium. Everybody realized that the shots were coming from up high. People were running around cars and jumping over things. Soon, all the buildings around here were locked - including ours. Squad cars converged. There must have been a hundred of them right away. My employer, Mr. (Abe) Zapruder was making a movie at the time it happened. He is still with the Secret Service men. As soon as we were inside the building before any reports on the condition of the President, Mr. Zapruder had already told us 'The President of the United States is dead.' 'We saw him die...'" (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) "'We all saw him die,' Mrs. Peggy Burney said. But neither she nor the others who witnessed the assassination of the President could believe what they saw. They thought the first of the three shots from the assassin's rifle was the backfire of a car."

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

Edited March 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Thomas Graves said:

Big-time correction on my part:

 In their FBI statements, neither Jane Berry nor Betty Thornton said they were standing down on Elm Street ("1/3" or "1/2" of the way between Houston and the Triple Underpass, or whatever).  

Both of them said they were standing with each other "on Elm Street [Extension?] in front of the TSBD."

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/pdf/WH22_CE_1381.pdf

My bad.

--  Tommy

Edit:  And then again, there's Peggy Burney.

Peggy Burney (11-23-63 first person account published in the Dallas Times-Herald) "I saw the President die. I was standing at the curb on Elm about a third the way from Houston Street near the overpass. When the President's car made the curve around the corner, he was smiling and waving. He was not standing, as I heard some reports say later. He was sitting, but he was happy and Jackie was happy and smiling as they passed. The car had passed about 15 feet beyond me when I heard the first shot. I did not realize it was a shot; I thought it was a backfire. The President ducked; instinctively I told myself 'something is happening,' but nobody knew what. Then I heard a second shot. I noticed that Jackie didn't duck - I could no longer see the President. The car momentarily stopped, then veered slightly to the right and speeded [sic] off. People around me were screaming; some were falling to the ground. I could not tell whether they were hit, or not - or just dodging. There was pandemonium. Everybody realized that the shots were coming from up high. People were running around cars and jumping over things. Soon, all the buildings around here were locked - including ours. Squad cars converged. There must have been a hundred of them right away. My employer, Mr. (Abe) Zapruder was making a movie at the time it happened. He is still with the Secret Service men. As soon as we were inside the building before any reports on the condition of the President, Mr. Zapruder had already told us 'The President of the United States is dead.' 'We saw him die...'" (11-23-63 UPI article found in the Fresno Bee) "'We all saw him die,' Mrs. Peggy Burney said. But neither she nor the others who witnessed the assassination of the President could believe what they saw. They thought the first of the three shots from the assassin's rifle was the backfire of a car."

http://www.patspeer.com/more-pieces-in-the-plaza

Well, then the names Jane Berry and Betty Thornton are wrong on the photo below. I mean, I think. Technically speaking that location is in front of the TSBD  (I think). But there's that park separating the women below from the TSBD.

That area does seem to be about 1/3 the way down. So Peggy Burney might be labeled correctly.

But frankly I don't trust any of the names anymore. Four of the women in that group of eight need to be Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Karen Westbrook.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Sandy Larsen]

Regarding the wearing of scarves....

Perhaps the wearing scarves was in style for teenagers in 1963. So many of them did, but not all.

The reason there are five women wearing scarves standing together is because four of them are Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Karen Westbrook, all of whom are around 19 years of age. And the fifth woman we see wearing a scarf is just a coincidence.

I currently believe that our four young women (Calvery's group) are indeed the women circled here:

On 3/3/2017 at 2:07 AM, Robin Unger said:

 

Or.... eliminate the one on the right and replace her with the one just outside the yellow square on the left. (Tommy showed us that we can actually see her face in uncropped Altgens 6, below. This woman is on our far left in Algens 6.)

JFK's limo was reportedly in front of Calvery's group at the time of the first shot. Looking at Algens 6, it appears that the limo very well could have been in front of them at the time of the first shot. (The Calvery group are standing just outside this frame, next to that woman in the gray coat (actually a bright blue coat) and scarf. Remember, that woman might be one of the Calvery group.)
 

[Thomas Graves]

31 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Regarding the wearing of scarves....

Perhaps the wearing scarves was in style for teenagers in 1963. So many of them did, but not all.

The reason there are five women wearing scarves standing together is because four of them are Gloria Calvery, Karan Hicks, Carol Reed, and Karen Westbrook, all of whom are around 19 years of age. And the fifth woman we see wearing a scarf is just a coincidence.

I currently believe that our four young women (Calvery's group) are indeed the women circled here:

Or.... eliminate the one on the right and replace her with the one just outside the yellow square on the left. (Tommy showed us that we can actually see her face in uncropped Altgens 6, below. This woman is on our far left in Algens 6.)

JFK's limo was reportedly in front of Calvery's group at the time of the first shot. Looking at Algens 6, it appears that the limo very well could have been in front of them at the time of the first shot. (The Calvery group are standing just outside this frame, next to that woman in the gray coat (actually a bright blue coat) and scarf. Remember, that woman might be one of the Calvery group.)
 

Sandy,

I like you're reasoning.  

I'm making an educated guess that "Big Girl" is Gloria Calvery. 

--  Tommy

[Sandy Larsen]

Isn't it interesting that

1. All the woman we are currently interested in are wearing scarves; and
2. A number of women returning to the TSBD in Darnell/Couch are ALSO wearing scarves.

Hmmm.

Look at the one woman here whose clothes are quite bright, almost like she's wearing all white:
 

 

Could she be All White Woman we see walking up the TSBD steps, near Lovelady Man?

 

Also, could All Black Woman -- the one talking to Lovelady Man -- actually be the right-most woman of interest circled in the photo above? Could she be Calvery? (All White Woman seems to have a figure, and so couldn't be Calvery.)

Hypothesis:

Let's assume the story about Shelley and Lovelady entering the west entrance was rehearsed... that is, not true. Going by the first day affidavits, that's a possibility. Here is my hypothesis, going by memory what was said in the affidavits:

The gunshots are heard. Shelley leaves the steps to get a better view (because the limo cannot be seen from the steps, according to Frazier). At the same time Gloria's group are running for cover. That is, to the TSBD. They encounter each other at the concrete island and Gloria tells Shelley that Kennedy was shot. They all run back to the steps. Shelley runs inside to call his wife.

Baker arrives. Calvery is talking to Lovelady at the steps as Baker crosses the street. Darnell & Couch film this.

<End Hypothesis>