Was "Full-Figured" Gloria Calvery "Running Woman"?

[Sandy Larsen]

6 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

I like you're reasoning.  

I'm making an educated guess that "Big Girl" is Gloria Calvery. 

--  Tommy

That seems to be the case according to my reckoning and my hypothesis.

Even so, Big Girl really does seem bigger to me than Calvery. She has very wide hips. And she's very tall. Gloria and her hubby seem kind of average to me. But hey, it's just a matter of perception.

[Thomas Graves]

1 hour ago, Sandy Larsen said:

That seems to be the case according to my reckoning and my hypothesis.

Even so, Big Girl really does seem bigger to me than Calvery. She has very wide hips. And she's very tall. Gloria and her hubby seem kind of average to me. But hey, it's just a matter of perception.

Sandy,

I wish I could somehow prove that Jacob's and Holt's sidekick, Sharon Simmons, was misidentified by Speth / Robideau / Unger as "Carol Reed".

But a "fly in my ointment" is the fact that their tallish, light-blue headscarf-wearing "Carol Reed" looks a lot like Karen Hicks in HSCA's photo #39 !!  

IMHO.

--  Tommy

Edited March 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

I may have made a positive identification.

The woman is standing just to the left of presumed Gloria Calvery's group. In this photo, this woman is barely outside of the yellow box, on it's left side
 

On 3/3/2017 at 2:07 AM, Robin Unger said:

 

Here she is in Altgens 6. She is the woman on the far left. Note her poofy dark hair visible far above her scarf.
 

 

And here she is in Darnell/Couch, on the left half of the frame. Note again her poofy dark hair rising far above her scarf.

Well, maybe I'm wrong. She's wearing a coat in Altgens. Is this a coat or a dress in Darnell/Couch? I think it is a coat, but it seems to be made of thinner fabric here.

Another thing... in Altgens it seems like there is a dark trim around the collar. I don't see it here in Darnell/Couch.

EDIT: Upon looking more carefully, I do believe I see the dark trim on her collar. I had though it was the bottom edge of her scarf, but I don't believe that anymore.

It seem like in Altgens her collar is pulled up straight, i.e. not folded down. Here it looks like it's folded down.

What do you guys think?

If this is a match, it gives me more confidence that it really could be Gloria's Calvery's group we see on the steps so quickly after the shooting.

[Thomas Graves]

6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I may have made a positive identification.

[...]

Sandy,

A positive identification of whom?

Gloria Jean Calvery?

--  Tommy

Edited March 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

6 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

A positive identification of whom?

Gloria Jean Calvery?

--  Tommy

No... I wish.

Did you see my Hypothesis post, here? You need to read that to understand my subsequent posts.

Anyway, it's a  possible positive identification for the woman standing just to the left of the (presumed) Calvery group.

It's importance is that it shows how quickly the gals could have gotten back to the TSBD. If the identification is correct, it gives more confidence that Gloria's group could be the ones we see at the steps in Darnell/Couch.

 

[Thomas Graves]

14 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Isn't it interesting that

1. All the woman we are currently interested in are wearing scarves; and
2. A number of women returning to the TSBD in Darnell/Couch are ALSO wearing scarves.

Hmmm.

Look at the one woman here whose clothes are quite bright, almost like she's wearing all white:
 

 

Could she be All White Woman we see walking up the TSBD steps, near Lovelady Man?

 

Also, could All Black Woman -- the one talking to Lovelady Man -- actually be the right-most woman of interest circled in the photo above? Could she be Calvery? (All White Woman seems to have a figure, and so couldn't be Calvery.)

Hypothesis:

Let's assume the story about Shelley and Lovelady entering the west entrance was rehearsed... that is, not true. Going by the first day affidavits, that's a possibility. Here is my hypothesis, going by memory what was said in the affidavits:

The gunshots are heard. Shelley leaves the steps to get a better view (because the limo cannot be seen from the steps, according to Frazier). At the same time Gloria's group are running for cover. That is, to the TSBD. They encounter each other at the concrete island and Gloria tells Shelley that Kennedy was shot. They all run back to the steps. Shelley runs inside to call his wife.

Baker arrives. Calvery is talking to Lovelady at the steps as Baker crosses the street. Darnell & Couch film this.

<End Hypothesis>

 

Sandy,

Nice "catch" and nice theory.  I would only say that the Woman In Black talking with "Lovelady" is wearing a dark-colored headscarf, and therefore, if she's one of the five gals in our Z-Frame "Calvery Group," she must be "Big Girl".

--  Tommy

Edit:  Once again, here's Betzner 3.  "Big Girl" can be seen standing "next to" John Templin in the background.  Is "Big Girl" Gloria Calvery?  I believe that she very well could be.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

1 hour ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

I wish I could somehow prove that Jacob's and Holt's sidekick, Sharon Simmons, was misidentified by Speth / Robideau / Unger as "Carol Reed".

But a "fly in my ointment" is the fact that their tallish, light-blue headscarf-wearing "Carol Reed" looks a lot like Karen Hicks in HSCA's photo #39 !!  

IMHO.

--  Tommy

I wouldn't have thought they are the same. But now that you mention it, Yeah there is some similarity.

But I believe that Karan Hicks is one of these four women:
 

 

 

[Thomas Graves]

26 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

2 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Isn't it interesting that

1. All the woman we are currently interested in are wearing scarves; and
2. A number of women returning to the TSBD in Darnell/Couch are ALSO wearing scarves.

Hmmm.

Look at the one woman here whose clothes are quite bright, almost like she's wearing all white:
 

 

Could she be All White Woman we see walking up the TSBD steps, near Lovelady Man?

 

Also, could All Black Woman -- the one talking to Lovelady Man -- actually be the right-most woman of interest circled in the photo above? Could she be Calvery? (All White Woman seems to have a figure, and so couldn't be Calvery.)

Hypothesis:

Let's assume the story about Shelley and Lovelady entering the west entrance was rehearsed... that is, not true. Going by the first day affidavits, that's a possibility. Here is my hypothesis, going by memory what was said in the affidavits:

The gunshots are heard. Shelley leaves the steps to get a better view (because the limo cannot be seen from the steps, according to Frazier). At the same time Gloria's group are running for cover. That is, to the TSBD. They encounter each other at the concrete island and Gloria tells Shelley that Kennedy was shot. They all run back to the steps. Shelley runs inside to call his wife.

Baker arrives. Calvery is talking to Lovelady at the steps as Baker crosses the street. Darnell & Couch film this.

<End Hypothesis>

 

Sandy,

Nice "catch" and nice theory.  I would only say that the Woman In Black talking with "Lovelady" is wearing a dark-colored headscarf, and therefore, if she's one of the five gals in our Z-Frame "Calvery Group," she must be "Big Girl".

--  Tommy

Edit:  Once again, here's Betzner 3.  "Big Girl" can be seen standing "next to" John Trmplin in the background.  Is "Big Girl" Gloria Calvery?  I believe that she very well could be.

Edited and bumped.

[Sandy Larsen]

4 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Sandy,

Nice "catch" and nice theory.  I would only say that the Woman In Black talking with "Lovelady" is wearing a dark-colored headscarf, and therefore, if she's one of the five gals in our Z-Frame "Calvery Group," she must be "Big Girl".

--  Tommy

Yes, you're right. And that does bother me a bit. Because Big Girl not only has quite large hips, but is also quite tall. Photos of Calvery don't give me that impression.

On the other hand, the only photo that shows he lower body is her wedding photo. LOL  (I think)

Could the outfit Gloria is wearing in this photo be concealing rather large hips? And could Gloria be 5' 7" or taller? Her husband 5" 10" or taller?

You know, now that I put it in terms of her husband's height, the height issue no longer bothers me. Yeah, he could be 5" 10" tall. She looks to be about 3" shorter than him, so 5' 7" for her. I think that back then 5" 7" was kind of tall for a woman. (My mother was 5' 3" or 5' 4", and my sister 5' 7". My mother seemed about average to me, and my sister seemed tall.)

As for the hip issue... I suppose that jacket she is wearing for her wedding announcement could be evening out the difference between her waist and her larger thighs, thus making the thighs not seem so large. Unlike the tight blouse below that accentuates her hips relative to her waist.

[Thomas Graves]

22 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes, you're right. And that does bother me a bit. Because Big Girl not only has quite large hips, but is also quite tall. Photos of Calvery don't give me that impression.

On the other hand, the only photo that shows he lower body is her wedding photo. LOL  (I think)

Could the outfit Gloria is wearing in this photo be concealing rather large hips? And could Gloria be 5' 7" or taller? Her husband 5" 10" or taller?

You know, now that I put it in terms of her husband's height, the height issue no longer bothers me. Yeah, he could be 5" 10" tall. She looks to be about 3" shorter than him, so 5' 7" for her. I think that back then 5" 7" was kind of tall for a woman. (My mother was 5' 3" or 5' 4", and my sister 5' 7". My mother seemed about average to me, and my sister seemed tall.)

As for the hip issue... I suppose that jacket she is wearing for her wedding announcement could be evening out the difference between her waist and her larger thighs, thus making the thighs not seem so large. Unlike the tight blouse below that accentuates her hips relative to her waist.

Sandy,

In her wedding photograph, Calvery is wearing clothes and assuming a stance that minimizes her girth, imho.

In one of he high school photos, it seems to me that she's hiding her figure somewhat behind that tire.

Regarding her "overly-wide" hips, above, it's conceivable that a gust of wind caused her dress to flare out a bit.

--  Tommy

Edit:  FWIW, the shape / configuration / length / and "darkness" of W.I.B.'s and B.G.'s head scarves appear identical to me.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

34 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Edit:  Once again, here's Betzner 3.  "Big Girl" can be seen standing "next to" John Trmplin in the background.  Is "Big Girl" Gloria Calvery?  I believe that she very well could be.

Yes Tommy, she has the same hair style as Calvery in her wedding announcement.

You know I've been concerned that Big Girl is too big to be Calvery. But compare Gloria's size to her husband's.

In her wedding announcement my impression has been that her husband is small. Because he looks small next to this woman, Gloria. But now I realize that I could have gotten it backwards. He's not a small man... she's a big woman!

This is beginning to make sense.

 

[Thomas Graves]

5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Yes Tommy, she has the same hair style as Calvery in her wedding announcement.

You know I've been concerned that Big Girl is too big to be Calvery. But compare Gloria's size to her husband's.

In her wedding announcement my impression has been that her husband is small. Because he looks small next to this woman, Gloria. But now I realize that I could have gotten it backwards. He's not a small man... she's a big woman!

This is beginning to make sense.

 

Yes, we naturally assume that women are significantly shorter than their husbands.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

9 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Edit:  FWIW, the shape / configuration / length / and "darkness" of W.I.B.'s and B.G.'s head scarves appear identical to me.

I did notice that both W.I.B.'s and B.G.'s heads (including scarves, of course) look tall and narrow, compared to the Woman in White's head.

[Sandy Larsen]

3 minutes ago, Thomas Graves said:

Yes, we naturally assume that women are significantly shorter that their husbands.

And not only shorter, but smaller in general. (e.g. narrow shoulders.) But look at the wedding announcement. She's a big woman. Look at the shoulders of B.G. and W.I.B.

[Thomas Graves]

1 minute ago, Sandy Larsen said:

And not only shorter, but smaller in general. (e.g. narrow shoulders.) But look at the wedding announcement. She's a big woman. Look at the shoulders of B.G. and W.I.B.

Yes indeed.  She could have been a linebacker.  (lol)