Does Lifton's Best Evidence indicate that the coverup and the crime were committed by the same people?

[Gerry Simone]

3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Gerry - There is so much info and so little time. I quite understand. What is clear is that the first autopsy plan was Walter Reed hospital. I know from looking at the AF 1 tape Clifton version, which is longer than the one in the LBJ library but still far from complete, is that there was an argument aboard which resulted in moving the autopsy to Bethesda. I don't recall Jackie playing any part in that decision, but do remember that Bundy at the WH situation room and the Secret Service agents aboard AF 1 (I think Kellerman) argued for Bethesda, and I think JFK's physician, and Clifton, JFK's senior aide (chief of staff) lost the argument. As to why Walter Reed was his choice, and not Bethesda, I don't know. Interestingly, another tidbit on the longer Clifton version but not on the LBJ version, is that an aide to Curtis LeMay can be heard trying to interrupt AF 1 transmissions to get an urgent message to LeMay. Wonder what that was about. Well, I think LeMay and his cigar were seen at the Bethesda autopsy, so I presume the aide was telling LeMay, apparently already aboard a C-140, where the autopsy would be. LeMay did in fact land at the closer airport. 

Btw, Lifton says there was an autopsy team assembled and ready to go at Walter Reed!

Yes, I recall reading that Walter Reed was a choice (if not the 1st) of a location but that it ended being Bethesda, and yes LeMay was at the autopsy chomping on a cigar.  Apparently, he was in my home town when the assassination happened.

http://jfkfacts.org/a-note-on-curtis-lemays-actions-on-nov-22/

Edited April 7, 2017 by Gerry Simone
corrected "chopping" to "chomping"

[Michael Clark]

4 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

Nice recap but where's the CIA here?  (Poppy supposedly was a contract agent, but I'm referring to the likes of Hunt, Sturgis, Morales, etc.)

CIA and military kept at a distance. Some CIA left prints, Like David Atlee Phillips and Hunt. CIA was not on the "need-to-know" list. Lol! Sturgis and Morales were hired agents of fortune, who would get theirs when Cuba was reclaimed. That never happened and I bet Nixon almost keeled-over when Hunt, Sturgis and Barker showed up at Watergate. I don't detect Morales in the JFKA.

[Gerry Simone]

8 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

CIA and military kept at a distance. Some CIA left prints, Like David Atlee Phillips and Hunt. CIA was not on the "need-to-know" list. Lol! Sturgis and Morales were hired agents of fortune, who would get theirs when Cuba was reclaimed. That never happened and I bet Nixon almost keeled-over when Hunt, Sturgis and Barker showed up at Watergate. I don't detect Morales in the JFKA.

I don't think McCone was part of it, but Dulles might have been in the know.  Okay then. I agree with you on Phillips and Hunt.  Somebody had to handle Oswald.  Someone had to pull strings.  

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

I don't know about Walker being more pissed off than Marcello who had to almost crawl back to the U.S. through a Central American jungle, but I can see how he would hate the Kennedy's even more after that humiliating experience.  I also can't see Walker as being the major catalyst for Oswald's manipulation (or the President's assassination), due to Oswald's susceptibility (to manipulation) as a fake defector and agent-provocateur by a rogue cell within the CIA, working in concert with Mob elements and perhaps the Radical Right that you alluded to (business elites, John Birchers and even Walker).  IOW, there were other parties that instigated the assassination more so than Walker.

If there was a pre-arranged Cover-Up Team, I doubt they would be opposed to the JFK Kill Team.  But if a cover-up apparatus or team was born out of the bungled murder conspiracy, then I'd prefer to say that they did not buy the Kill Team's propaganda, and came up with the Lone Nut scenario instead.  This doesn't mean that certain key figures in the post-assassination cover-up team did not acquiesce to the murder of JFK.

Gerry,

All good points, and well-taken.

Here's my theory of how the JFK Kill Team and the JFK Cover-up Team were separate and hostile to one another (and thus relevant to this thread).

1. General Walker, says Jeff Caufield (2015), was an associate of Guy Banister.  

2. They were both leaders of Minutemen groups in their respective cities.  They were both Segregationist speakers and hopeful politicians.  They spoke to the same crowds in the South -- mainly in Louisiana, but also in Mississippi and that area.

3.  They were both interested in Cuban Raid Groups -- thinking of them as freedom fighters.

4.  They were both connected to Gerry Patrick Hemming and Interpen (Caufield, 2015).  We have written correspondence of Hemming to Walker in his personal papers.

5.  The very WEEK after the Walker shooting, Lee Harvey Oswald "decided" to go to New Orleans, to work at 544 Camp Street with David Ferrie -- his former CAP officer.

6.  Guy Banister was in control of 544 Camp Street (said Jim Garrison, 1967).

7.  I see a connection here -- although I'm aware that many readers still don't.

8.  Guy Banister worked with Ed Butler to "sheep-dip" Lee Harvey Oswald as a deep red Communist.  Many people today still think Oswald was a Red.

9.  Guy Banister, David Ferrie, and perhaps members of Interpen, manipulated Lee Harvey Oswald through a Fake FPCC to Mexico City and back to Dallas.

10.  I see a Radical Right connection in this -- as utterly obvious.

11.  There is virtually no CIA connection in all of this -- as neither Banister, Ferrie, Martin, Crisman or Beckham were CIA - they were strictly mercenaries.

12.  Nor was Interpen CIA -- they were strictly mercenaries.

13.  The only CIA person that was involved directly and officially was David Atlee Phillips, almost certainly in the context of assassinating Fidel Castro.

14.  The only two CIA people who confessed to non-official roles in the JFK assassination were E. Howard Hunt and David Morales.   Strictly unofficial; off the reservation.

15.  So, unless somebody can offer harder evidence, I see only a Civilian JFK Kill Team, i.e. the Radical Right.

16.  If this is correct, then I feel justified in speculating that J. Edgar Hoover was very much aware of Guy Banister and David Ferrie.  (They were connected to Carlos Marcello, a very rich mobster who probably gave them a truckload of money for their Cuba Raid and Minutemen efforts). 

17.  Hoover knew very well -- and in his FBI files -- that the FPCC chapter in New Orleans was a big Fake.

18.  Therefore, Hoover figured out within HOURS of the JFK assassination, that Guy Banister was behind it -- and he probably guessed that General Walker of Dallas was involved as well -- if not the actual leader in this Radical Right military-style ambush.

19.  THEREFORE, J. Edgar Hoover saw very quickly that the purpose of the JFK killing was to blame the Communists, and to force the US Government to take military action against the Communists -- first in Cuba.   Probably a heavy bombing of Cuba was intended.

20.  THEREFORE, J. Edgar Hoover quickly invented the "Lone Nut" theory at 4pm EST (says Dr. David Wrone, 2001) to prevent the media from blaming the Communists for the JFK murder.

21.  This CT ties up many loose ends -- and includes a wide range of CT literature -- and even accepts David Lifton's pre-autopsy autopsy evidence.

22.  This CT also takes a firm stand -- the JFK Cover-up Team was an afterthought -- conceived on 11/22/1963.   There was no planning for it.  It was only the genius of J. Edgar Hoover that made it stick -- through LBJ and Earl Warren.

23.  THEREFORE, the JFK Cover-up Team had nothing to do with the JFK Kill Team -- except as OPPONENTS to the original plan to blame the Communists by using Lee Harvey Oswald as a Deep Red Patsy.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited April 8, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[George Sawtelle]

Yes I agree. The killers lead the cover-up.

They controlled the body.

They controlled most of the film, including the Zap film, and the photos taken in Dealey Plaza the day JFK was killed. 

And they knew where to concentrate their efforts on the Zap film because they knew the number of shooters firing at the president, their location and the number of shots fired during the shooting.

So they had a pretty good head start on the cover-up. 

[Steve Thomas]

12 hours ago, Gerry Simone said:

I don't think it was for the sole purpose of getting rid of Castro.  Those guys believed that the USA could win in a nuclear exchange with the Soviets (if one can believe that anyone could win a nuclear world war).

Gerry,

 

Just a little quick side note, and off topic at that, I'm afraid...

But you might be interested in scrolling down through this site:

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/download/csipubs/TheIntegratedBattlefield_HellerSnoke.pdf

I'm afraid I can't provide any full text of the articles, but just scrolling through the bibliography will make your blood run cold.

 

Steve Thomas

[Ray Mitcham]

Steve, have a listen to Wesley Clark, about Iraq.

 

 

[Gerry Simone]

18 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Gerry,

All good points, and well-taken.

Here's my theory of how the JFK Kill Team and the JFK Cover-up Team were separate and hostile to one another (and thus relevant to this thread).

1. General Walker, says Jeff Caufield (2015), was an associate of Guy Banister.  

2. They were both leaders of Minutemen groups in their respective cities.  They were both Segregationist speakers and hopeful politicians.  They spoke to the same crowds in the South -- mainly in Louisiana, but also in Mississippi and that area.

3.  They were both interested in Cuban Raid Groups -- thinking of them as freedom fighters.

4.  They were both connected to Gerry Patrick Hemming and Interpen (Caufield, 2015).  We have written correspondence of Hemming to Walker in his personal papers.

5.  The very WEEK after the Walker shooting, Lee Harvey Oswald "decided" to go to New Orleans, to work at 544 Camp Street with David Ferrie -- his former CAP officer.

6.  Guy Banister was in control of 544 Camp Street (said Jim Garrison, 1967).

7.  I see a connection here -- although I'm aware that many readers still don't.

8.  Guy Banister worked with Ed Butler to "sheep-dip" Lee Harvey Oswald as a deep red Communist.  Many people today still think Oswald was a Red.

9.  Guy Banister, David Ferrie, and perhaps members of Interpen, manipulated Lee Harvey Oswald through a Fake FPCC to Mexico City and back to Dallas.

10.  I see a Radical Right connection in this -- as utterly obvious.

11.  There is virtually no CIA connection in all of this -- as neither Banister, Ferrie, Martin, Crisman or Beckham were CIA - they were strictly mercenaries.

12.  Nor was Interpen CIA -- they were strictly mercenaries.

13.  The only CIA person that was involved directly and officially was David Atlee Phillips, almost certainly in the context of assassinating Fidel Castro.

14.  The only two CIA people who confessed to non-official roles in the JFK assassination were E. Howard Hunt and David Morales.   Strictly unofficial; off the reservation.

15.  So, unless somebody can offer harder evidence, I see only a Civilian JFK Kill Team, i.e. the Radical Right.

16.  If this is correct, then I feel justified in speculating that J. Edgar Hoover was very much aware of Guy Banister and David Ferrie.  (They were connected to Carlos Marcello, a very rich mobster who probably gave them a truckload of money for their Cuba Raid and Minutemen efforts). 

17.  Hoover knew very well -- and in his FBI files -- that the FPCC chapter in New Orleans was a big Fake.

18.  Therefore, Hoover figured out within HOURS of the JFK assassination, that Guy Banister was behind it -- and he probably guessed that General Walker of Dallas was involved as well -- if not the actual leader in this Radical Right military-style ambush.

19.  THEREFORE, J. Edgar Hoover saw very quickly that the purpose of the JFK killing was to blame the Communists, and to force the US Government to take military action against the Communists -- first in Cuba.   Probably a heavy bombing of Cuba was intended.

20.  THEREFORE, J. Edgar Hoover quickly invented the "Lone Nut" theory at 4pm EST (says Dr. David Wrone, 2001) to prevent the media from blaming the Communists for the JFK murder.

21.  This CT ties up many loose ends -- and includes a wide range of CT literature -- and even accepts David Lifton's pre-autopsy autopsy evidence.

22.  This CT also takes a firm stand -- the JFK Cover-up Team was an afterthought -- conceived on 11/22/1963.   There was no planning for it.  It was only the genius of J. Edgar Hoover that made it stick -- through LBJ and Earl Warren.

23.  THEREFORE, the JFK Cover-up Team had nothing to do with the JFK Kill Team -- except as OPPONENTS to the original plan to blame the Communists by using Lee Harvey Oswald as a Deep Red Patsy.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

A nice summary of incriminating facts indeed, if not suspicious.  (Some info new to me).

Oswald was posthumously accused of that attempt against Walker, but there are many reasons to doubt that story.

http://22november1963.org.uk/did-lee-oswald-shoot-general-edwin-walker

The fact that Oswald goes to New Orleans to work with Ferrie at 544 Camp, which was under Banister's control, would make it more unlikely than ever that Oswald was opposed to Walker's views to have made an attempt on his life.  There's also circumstantial evidence that Oswald was a fake defector and agent-provocateur including being identified walking with David Atlee Phillips (aka Maurice Bishop) by Antonio Veciana.  Then there's the issue of Oswald being impersonated in Mexico City, which was monitored by the CIA, with the alleged disappearance of audio tapes (and I think photographs too) that were within the CIA's control.  David Ferrie knew Carlos Marcello (another Mob link), but David Ferrie being involved in the Bay of Pigs invasion cannot preclude him from being at the end of a tentacle of the CIA.

All of the latter to me says CIA connection or influence.

P.S.  BTW, here's a nice article I found on David Ferrie and his many nefarious connections.  He was also brilliant it seems.

http://www.thesleuthjournal.com/interview-david-ferrie-rick-bauer-jfks-darkest-hour/

Edited April 8, 2017 by Gerry Simone

[Gerry Simone]

8 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Gerry,

 

Just a little quick side note, and off topic at that, I'm afraid...

But you might be interested in scrolling down through this site:

http://usacac.army.mil/cac2/CGSC/CARL/download/csipubs/TheIntegratedBattlefield_HellerSnoke.pdf

I'm afraid I can't provide any full text of the articles, but just scrolling through the bibliography will make your blood run cold.

 

Steve Thomas

I saved it under my JFK PDF files folder, under "Military".  Thanks!

[Cliff Varnell]

20 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

A nice summary of incriminating facts indeed, if not suspicious.  (Some info new to me).

Nice summary of "facts"?

It's been shown to Paul over and over and over again that Hoover was not the author of the Lone Nut scenario but he keeps repeating this fiction.

Why encourage him in this fabrication?

[Gerry Simone]

30 minutes ago, Cliff Varnell said:

Nice summary of "facts"?

It's been shown to Paul over and over and over again that Hoover was not the author of the Lone Nut scenario but he keeps repeating this fiction.

Why encourage him in this fabrication?

Many seem to be facts supported by a source reference or that are common knowledge.  Yes, some are his conclusions or suppositions.

Who do you think is the author of the LN scenario?

We know that Nicholas Katzenbach wrote a memo on November 25th that stated  "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial." https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Katzenbach_Memo.html

Paul Trejo referred to a citation by Wrone that Hoover invented the LN theory on 4 pm November 24th.  Here's a memo of a phone call by Hoover before Katzenbach's memo the next day which says the same thing. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?ocId=954#relPageId=475&tab=page  (It's interesting to note that Hoover says something about a Conspiracy Charge under Section 2-11 on page two).

 

Edited April 8, 2017 by Gerry Simone

[Gerry Simone]

21 hours ago, Michael Clark said:

CIA and military kept at a distance. Some CIA left prints, Like David Atlee Phillips and Hunt. CIA was not on the "need-to-know" list. Lol! Sturgis and Morales were hired agents of fortune, who would get theirs when Cuba was reclaimed. That never happened and I bet Nixon almost keeled-over when Hunt, Sturgis and Barker showed up at Watergate. I don't detect Morales in the JFKA.

Sorry had to follow up with more info on Morales as being just more than an agent of fortune.  He was Chief of Operations at the CIA's Miami Station in 1963 according to Jefferson Morley.  Check out paragraph 6.  http://jfkfacts.org/top-6-jfk-files-the-cia-still-keeps-secret/

[Gerry Simone]

7 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said:

Steve, have a listen to Wesley Clark, about Iraq.

 

 

Hmmmm.

Why We Fight

 

[Michael Clark]

13 minutes ago, Gerry Simone said:

Sorry had to follow up with more info on Morales as being just more than an agent of fortune.  He was Chief of Operations at the CIA's Miami Station in 1963 according to Jefferson Morley.  Check out paragraph 6.  http://jfkfacts.org/top-6-jfk-files-the-cia-still-keeps-secret/

No need for sorry. I will admit that I haven't followed nor absorbed much about him.

[Cliff Varnell]

1 minute ago, Gerry Simone said:

Many seem to be facts supported by a source reference.  Yes, some are his conclusions or suppositions.  Who do you think is the author of the LN scenario?  We know that Nicholas Katzenbach wrote a memo on November 25th that stated  "The public must be satisfied that Oswald was the assassin; that he did not have confederates who are still at large; and that evidence was such that he would have been convicted at trial."  https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/Katzenbach_Memo.html

Paul Trejo referred to a citation by Wrone that Hoover invented the LN theory on 4 pm November 24th.  Here's a memo of a phone call by Hoover before Katzenbach's memo the next day which says the same thing. https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?ocId=954#relPageId=475&tab=page  (It's interesting to note that Hoover says something about a Conspiracy Charge under Section 2-11 on page two).

 

 

The President Has Been Shot. Charles Roberts  (p. 141) A reporter for Newsweek, Roberts was on AFI and met McGeorge Bundy at Andrews.

<quote on>

I remember looking at (McGeorge) Bundy because I was wondering if he had any word of what had happened in the world while we were in transit, whether this assassination was part of a plot. And he told me later that what he reported to the president during that flight back was that the whole world was stunned, but there was no evidence of a conspiracy at all.

<quote off>

Bundy first posited the Lone Assassin scenario.