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Still thinking about the photo for the application; going strictly from memory the photo in evidence shows Oswald in good clothes and even a sweater, and it is clearly Oswald.  So what I am stuck on is did the person in the consulate leave, get a photo that matched him including clothes, and come back to complete the application.  I can see that ...but that would leave somebody else's photo with the Cubans, to be checked after the fact - and its hard to thing they did not and would have raised a hue and cry if it were not Oswald.  To make sense of this you have to assume they did not check and at that some pint the application that is now in evidence had an Oswald photo substituted for the record.  I admit to having been away from this stuff for ages but I'm having a hard time thinking the Cubans did not check the photo against media coverage of Oswald?

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It's interesting David,  In the 70's I traveled extensively  through Mexico and Central America in a car, entering through Tijuana going down Baja and ferrying across  to the mainland.. There wasn't good official record keeping in Mexico at all. There were a few times I remember when we'd leave the car for convenience and take public transportation and never having to put my name on a ledger. Everyone used cash back then. If LHO did enter Mexico, he did it in a high profile way.I think it would have been very easy for him to not leave a paper trail if he wanted to. Just enter Mexico in a tourist town and say you were going over for a night in Mexico, then buy a ticket to MC on any number of public buses that don't require a signature, or meet with a liaison who drives you to MC. 

Edited by Kirk Gallaway
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4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Hi Kirk....

The evidence offered for Oswald's bus ride from Monterrey to Mexico City is the FLECHA ROJAS passenger manifest showing Lee H OSWALJ, BOWEN & McFARLAND.

Mumford and Winston were on a "scheme" that allowed them to get on and off buses.

We spent one day in Monterrey and left by bus at 7:30 p.m. at Monterrey, and it was on that bus that we met Lee Harvey Oswald. 

"WCD1245 p274 is the beginning of the typed version passenger list #11889 for Flecha Rojas bus #516 for passengers who ONLY got on in Monterrey (i.e. Mumford and Winston).  Their names, as expected, do not appear on this list."   They're not on the list because they took a different bus.  They took the Del Norte bus

Miss MUMFORD. Well, the ticket we had on this deal enabled us only to travel in the States, not in Mexico.  So, we bought the ticket on the bus at Laredo and that enabled us to stop off in Monterrey. But the ticket was from Laredo to Mexico City.
Mr. BALL. And from what company did you buy the ticket?
Miss MUMFORD. As far as I can remember, it was a bus company called Transporter del Norte.

Mr. BALL. Now, you got on the bus at Monterrey on the evening of September 26 at 7:30 p.m., you just told me?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And what was the company that operated that bus, do you know?
Miss MUMFORD. That was also Transporter del Norte.

Miss MUMFORD. Oswald was the first one we spoke to. He left his seat and came down to the back of the bus to speak to us.
Mr. BALL. That was after the bus had left Monterrey?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes          …. Then we arrived in the Mexico City bus station and he didn't speak to us, attempt to speak to us at all. He was one of the first off the bus and the last I remember seeing him he was standing across the end of the room.

The McFarland affidavit confirms they left Monterrey with the Australian women and claims that Oswald was seated next to Bowen "the elderly man"
This is the FLECHA ROJAS manifest "proving" how Oswald went to Mexico City.  This bus leaves Monterrey at 3:30pm.  The bus from Nuevo Laredo left at 2pm.

In both CE2532 and CE2121 p32  (the NY Times account of the trip)  we find the FBI concluding that this Oswald traveling as H.O. LEE, took a 2:30pm 9/26 Flecha Rojas bus from Nuevo Laredo to Mexico City via Monterrey.

5925ba6dc166d_64-05-11CE2532-May111964FBIsaysHOLEEondelNorteoutandFlechaRojasbusintoMexico.jpg.d57eea4afa531112239f789e604f77f3.jpg

It's 135 miles from Nuevo Laredo to Monterrey on a bus that can barely make 45mph...  Obviously (except to the FBI) Oswald cannot board a bus at 2pm and then leave on another bus 135 miles away only 1.5hrs later.

5925b95ec1ff3_63-09-27CE2482FlechaRojasbusbaggagemanifest-Oswalt-Bowen-Bowen-McFarland-McFarland.jpg.bd866b0220df5acc1b8fecb1ee78674b.jpg

 

This fictitious Oswald was not on a bus with these people... Bowen/Osbourne denies it, the evidence denies it and then there's this little tidbit about the Australian witness who supposedly adds corroboration to the FBI's evidence....

(May 19, 1964)
Mr. BALL. Well, you were shown pictures of a man (Bowen/Osborne) later on by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not?
Miss MUMFORD. Yes.
Mr. BALL. And they showed you pictures of Oswald, didn't they; Lee Harvey Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.
Mr. BALL. You didn't ever see a picture of Oswald?
Miss MUMFORD. No.


David,

Questions Regarding the Fletcha Rosa Bus:

The Fletcha Rosa busline manifest indicates that Oswald was on that bus. From your post I see that the following were others on that bus:

  1. Bowen (an "elderly man")
  2. McFarland
  3. An "Australian woman."

You say that Bowen denied Oswald was on the bus. How so?

What about McFarland and the Australian woman? Were they asked about Oswald's presence? Was anybody else on that bus asked?


Question Regarding the Del Norte Bus:

Could it be -- for whatever odd reason -- that the FBI didn't know what bus Oswald took, and so they fabricated the Fletcha Rosa busline manifest? Only to discover later that Oswald actually took the Del Norte bus with Winston and Mumford? Which explains why Mumford testified to seeing Oswald on that bus?


Other Question:

In this question:

Mr. BALL. Well, you were shown pictures of a man (Bowen/Osborne) later on by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not?

who is Osborne? Which bus did was he on?

 

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1 hour ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

It's interesting David,  In the 70's I traveled extensively  through Mexico and Central America in a car, entering through Tijuana going down Baja and ferrying across  to the mainland.. There wasn't good official record keeping in Mexico at all. There were a few times I remember when we'd leave the car for convenience and take public transportation and never having to put my name on a ledger. Everyone used cash back then. If LHO did enter Mexico, he did it in a high profile way.I think it would have been very easy for him to not leave a paper trail if he wanted to. Just enter Mexico in a tourist town and say you were going over for a night in Mexico, then buy a ticket to MC on any number of public buses that don't require a signature, or meet with a liaison who drives you to MC. 


But Oswald would still need a ride to the border. I assume the FBI had evidence (fabricated or real) for that leg of the trip too.

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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3 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Still thinking about the photo for the application; going strictly from memory the photo in evidence shows Oswald in good clothes and even a sweater, and it is clearly Oswald.  So what I am stuck on is did the person in the consulate leave, get a photo that matched him including clothes, and come back to complete the application.  I can see that ...but that would leave somebody else's photo with the Cubans, to be checked after the fact - and its hard to thing they did not and would have raised a hue and cry if it were not Oswald.  To make sense of this you have to assume they did not check and at that some pint the application that is now in evidence had an Oswald photo substituted for the record.  I admit to having been away from this stuff for ages but I'm having a hard time thinking the Cubans did not check the photo against media coverage of Oswald?

 

Larry,

Suppose the imposter looked like Rand Paul:

Rand_Lee.jpg


(Except mirror-image the photo so that the part in his hair is on the correct side.)

Do you think the Mexican authorities would have thought it was the wrong person?

 

What if the imposter looked like the Oswald on the left:

mug.jpg


Do you think the Mexican authorities would have thought it was the wrong person?

 

IMO Oswald looks more like Rand Paul than he does himself... the one on the left, that is. And yet nearly everybody accepts that the guy on the left is Oswald.

My point being that a decent lookalike imposter could pass for Oswald, especially in the case of a quick glance.

 

 

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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On 5/24/2017 at 3:07 PM, Sandy Larsen said:


David,

Questions Regarding the Fletcha Rosa Bus:

The Fletcha Rosa busline manifest indicates that Oswald was on that bus. From your post I see that the following were others on that bus:

  1. Bowen (an "elderly man")
  2. McFarland
  3. An "Australian woman."

You say that Bowen denied Oswald was on the bus. How so?
The FBI sticks to it's FLECHA ROJAS bus for some time, despite evidence proving McFarland & wife along with Mumford/Winston took a Del Norte bus... interesting too is the WCR never uses "BOWEN"... but only OSBOURNE.  When he claimed it was not Oswald, the WC simply decided not to believe him.

 

What about McFarland and the Australian woman? Were they asked about Oswald's presence? Was anybody else on that bus asked?

Sandy - you'd need to read thru the work for the details.  McFarland confirms they leave at 7:30pm from Monterrey on a Del Norte bus.  
The FBI has Oswald on FLECHA ROJAS from Laredo thru Monterrey to MC...  Yet the FBI also has him arriving on yet another busline - ANAHUAC. The McFarlands are never called, never interviewed again and all we have is the affidavits...   Mumford did testify: I suggest you read thru it....

The testimony of Pamela Mumford was taken at 12:30 p.m., on May 19, 1964, at 611 Wilshire Boulevard, Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball,


Question Regarding the Del Norte Bus:

Could it be -- for whatever odd reason -- that the FBI didn't know what bus Oswald took, and so they fabricated the Fletcha Rosa busline manifest? Only to discover later that Oswald actually took the Del Norte bus with Winston and Mumford? Which explains why Mumford testified to seeing Oswald on that bus?
Again Sandy - without having read the work to understand that by the afternoon of the 22nd Mexican "authorities" had "borrowed" the passenger manifests from the 4 bus lines specifically for Sept 26/27 and Oct 1/2/3.  They were all brought to one man who in turn oversaw the compilation of the evidence.

If there was actual evidence to authenticate any of the pieces of this journey one would think they'd be offered.  Again, the context of these answers is important...  there was in reality not a shred of evidence that Oswald had traveled to Mexico...  the stories of Mumford and McFarland fly in the face of everything we know about the Oswald Ruby killed.     


Other Question:

In this question:

Mr. BALL. Well, you were shown pictures of a man (Bowen/Osborne) later on by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agent, were you not?

who is Osborne? Which bus did was he on?

Osbourne = BOWEN 

 

On 5/24/2017 at 1:41 PM, Kirk Gallaway said:

 

It's interesting David,  In the 70's I traveled extensively  through Mexico and Central America in a car, entering through Tijuana going down Baja and ferrying across  to the mainland.. There wasn't good official record keeping in Mexico at all. There were a few times I remember when we'd leave the car for convenience and take public transportation and never having to put my name on a ledger. Everyone used cash back then. If LHO did enter Mexico, he did it in a high profile way.I think it would have been very easy for him to not leave a paper trail if he wanted to. Just enter Mexico in a tourist town and say you were going over for a night in Mexico, then buy a ticket to MC on any number of public buses that don't require a signature, or meet with a liaison who drives you to MC.

 

You make some very interesting points Kirk...  so in turn, one would expect the Mexico records to be sketchy... yet amazingly the FBI was able to ID and follow up on scores of passengers and bus station employees involved with this travel directly from the records which were kept.  We know the # of tickets, which envelopes they are placed, how they are forwarded, and on and on allowing the FBI to generate thousands of reports in its attempt to convince us of this trip.

The only "sketchy" evidence remains Oswald's.  A good example is a man named Voorhees.  A confused 73 year old man... see CE 2460..  prroblem with Voorhees is no corroboration and in fact conflicting info out of San Luis Potosi.

In true FBI form there are sprinkles of the truth covering the sh!t sundae, so maybe you won't notice...  

So the question is - what would be the purpose of getting Oswald to MC in a car in the company of others - both coming and going if we are certain that the mystery man charade had nothing to do with the physical person Oswald?  Peter Dale Scott answers with his Phase 1 & 2 scenario - on Oct 8 when this comes to light, the CIA is sheep-dipping Oswald as a Castro-ite - whether in a conspiracy to kill JFK or simply to give Oswald more "street credibility" when he returned to his CIA related work...  the evidence appears to initially put Ozzie with other.  (note: the entire BRILL episode is interesting as well as they were the only young white couple in a car entering at Neuvo Laredo...

 

Edited by David Josephs
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Sandy, I accept the fact that an imposter might well pass muster in person, however we know that Castro ordered an internal study of all the MC contacts with Oswald post-assassination and that Cuba was in possession of the visa application with photo.  I would have to think they would be intensely compared then, at length.  And Castro and the Cuban govt have always been eager to point towards evidence of conspiracy and challenge the lone nut story.  So I feel the impersonator would have to be a virtual twin.  Now there are some persons of interest who are indeed very close in appearance and I've posted photos of them on my web site, perhaps they could fool Cuban intelligence even after the fact. Problem then is why the discrepancies in descriptions by the Cuban staff? 

Plus the FBI search in MC for a photo shop failed - when a photo of Lee Oswald was shown.  That would seem to imply that the impersonator was not that close a match to Oswald and the visa photo would out the impersonation ASAP.  Unless of course the impersonator had already been supplied with a photo and just neglected to take it along...

But the point I'm most focused on now is when and how the final, official photo of Lee Oswald in the records...which clearly is Lee Oswald in dress shirt, sweater and tie...gets into the official record.  If it came from Cuba then that is indeed Lee Oswald and Oswald was at the consulate.  If Cuba provided a photo of someone else then what we see now did get substituted...and I do not remember when that hand-off was supposed to have occurred. 

Those are points that have long kept me on the fence so I'm eager to see some scenarios that would resolve them. I admit to not being up on all this so answers to the above would be welcome.

 

Edited by Larry Hancock
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23 minutes ago, Larry Hancock said:

 

Sandy, I accept the fact that an imposter might well pass muster in person, however we know that Castro ordered an internal study of all the MC contacts with Oswald post-assassination and that Cuba was in possession of the visa application with photo.  I would have to think they would be intensely compared then, at length.  And Castro and the Cuban govt have always been eager to point towards evidence of conspiracy and challenge the lone nut story.  So I feel the impersonator would have to be a virtual twin.  Now there are some persons of interest who are indeed very close in appearance and I've posted photos of them on my web site, perhaps they could fool Cuban intelligence even after the fact. Problem then is why the discrepancies in descriptions by the Cuban staff? 

Plus the FBI search in MC for a photo shop failed - when a photo of Lee Oswald was shown.  That would seem to imply that the impersonator was not that close a match to Oswald and the visa photo would out the impersonation ASAP.  Unless of course the impersonator had already been supplied with a photo and just neglected to take it along...

But the point I'm most focused on now is when and how the final, official photo of Lee Oswald in the records...which clearly is Lee Oswald in dress shirt, sweater and tie...gets into the official record.  If it came from Cuba then that is indeed Lee Oswald and Oswald was at the consulate.  If Cuba provided a photo of someone else then what we see now did get substituted...and I do not remember when that hand-off was supposed to have occurred. 

Those are points that have long kept me on the fence so I'm eager to see some scenarios that would resolve them. I admit to not being up on all this so answers to the above would be welcome.


Larry,

Thanks for making your points, which are very good ones.

I have another scenario that I think fits with everything I know about the case, including what I just learned from you. Suppose that an Oswald lookalike impersonator visited the embassy. Suppose further that he had been given the passport photo of real-Oswald beforehand and was instructed to dress like Oswald as shown in the photo. And finally, suppose that for some reason he did not take the photo with him, or chose not to hand it over, the first time he visited the embassy. Perhaps he simply forgot to take it. (Like you, it's hard for me to believe the latter would happen. But mistakes do occur.)

BTW, don't get me wrong. I'm not married to the idea that the man was an imposter. I'm just trying to narrow down the possibilities.

If Oswald did go to MC, he must have gone by car IMO.

It seems that the only other possibility is that the guy who visited the embassy was a blond short guy. But that would work only if he were likewise provided a passport photo of real-Oswald (so the Cuban authorities would be satisfied it was indeed Oswald), AND if Duran didn't notice that the photo didn't match the man. That's highly unlikely IMO.


At the moment I think there are only two viable possibilities: 1) An Oswald lookalike impersonator as described above went to MC; and 2) Oswald went to MC (with others) by automobile.

 

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I'm open to either scenario Sandy, one thing we have to add in though is that there were a series of telephone calls and at least one of which, involving both a male and a female, involved a different male than the others. Things get really complex when you have an imposter being impersonated (cue brain imploding).  Of course I can offer a far out scenario for that which is that someone well versed in MC counter intel activities saw the opportunity to raise the visibility of what might have been planned as a very small scale, low profile CI effort and by doing so left individuals at both the station and HQ trying to figure out who was doing what but all very much into Lee Oswald and sending lots of messages about him - a level of attention and intel interest which none of them were going to want to admit after Nov. 22. 

Sort of reminds me of the old spy vs. spy cartoons in Mad magazine but this time both would ostensibly be on the same side.

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When we apply PD Scott's Phase 1 phase 2 theory it, to me, seems obvious.

In a car with others = Oswald getting undercover credibility = double edge sword, same info incriminates Oswald.

When Mexico comes to light we'd find that he went to and returned from with others, ergo a conspiracy.  Then add Alvarado showing up and telling his story a few days after the fact...  

But then phase 2 kicks in and anything "conspiracy" must disappear.  Alvarado is the perfect example of this flip flop... and of being a Phillips asset in the Oswald "project"... I just don't think that activity related to Oswald in the months prior to the assassination specifically had anything to do with the assassination but his FBI/CIA "job".  You can't have Arthur Vallee being set-up in early Nov is Oswald and Mexico were directly related to the assassination unless Vallee was to give credibility to the notion that JFK was being targeted.  FBI reports out of Chicago after the 22nd, attempt to connect Vallee with Oswald!

The physical reality of his being there during those key days simply doesn't pan out as one takes a closer look.   Win Scott, Amb Mann and the FBI could not find one item of evidence where Oswald was anywhere other than where the CIA transcripts placed him.  Odio is, imo, a credible witness to Oswald in Dallas when the FBI/CIA has him in Mexico.

If she wasn't credible they could have done what they did to Osbourne - simply not believe what was said or witnessed.  Instead we get Odio's info buried in the last month before publication...

How sure does a person need to be?

Mrs. ODIO. She said, "Sylvia, you know that man?" And I said, "Yes," and she said, "I know him." "He was the one that came to our door, and it couldn't be so, could it?"

Mr. LIEBELER. Did she think it was Oswald?
Mrs. ODIO. Well, her reaction to it when Oswald came on television, she almost passed out on me, just like I did the day at work when I learned about the assassination of the President. Her reaction was so obvious that it was him, I mean. And my reaction, we remember Oswald the day he came to my house because he had not shaved and he had a kind of a very, I don't know how to express it, but some little hairs like if you haven't shaved, but it is not a thick moustache, but some kind of shadow. That is something I noticed. And he was wearing--the other ones were wearing white dirty shirts, but he was wearing a long sleeved shirt.

Mr. LIEBELER. But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald? 
Mrs. ODIO. And I shook hands with him.

Mr. LIEBELER. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph? 
Mrs. ODIO. That is Oswald. 
Mr. LIEBELER With the X? 
Mrs. ODIO. Yes.

img_1136_191_200.jpg

592716c31c42a_63-12-07CIAMessage-Alvaradogivensomethingnon-sensitivetodo.thumb.jpg.187256dd006f7901b44f1ea09f702d16.jpg

592716eb1fd39_63-11-26AlvaradoisaNicauraguanstudetCIAasset-forweb.jpg.1457af0e7876bb3a6a1b2a0494384729.jpg

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On 5/24/2017 at 7:39 PM, Larry Hancock said:

....one thing we have to add in though is that there were a series of telephone calls and at least one of which, involving both a male and a female, involved a different male than the others.


I'd like to read the transcripts of the phone calls. Does anybody know where I can find them?

This Mary Ferrell page says that the transcripts were declassified in the 1990s. But for some reason in includes links to only two of them. (What's up with that??)

 

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Sandy, Bill Simpich is probably your most reliable source on what still exists and where to find it....I'm not sure that actual transcripts of all of them were ever entered into the record or releases. There were several calls in question.  I'm assuming  you have Bill's book. Its also important to research the two translators, the Tarasoffs and their remarks. I'm not going to try and characterize all the details from memory since I know I would make a mistake or two ..or more..  

I'd also comment that once again if you are in search of total one hundred percent factual proof of who made what call, from where and what was real and what wasn't...I don't think you will find that.  Bill simply gets as close as we can probably get at this late date. One thing we do know though, the calls and the apparent difference in callers was driving MC nuts at that point in time, regardless of Phillips later lies in his book about Oswald not even being on the MC station radar.

Larry

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Here Sandy https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=61264  Some transcripts are in this file and here are some others...

 

 

The visa photos

 

If this application was indeed a typed original and carbon, there is no way to line up the carbon with the original which works...

 

One side or the other, the top or the bottom cannot be sized correctly.  Plus the signatures don't match at all

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs
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Let me add something to the mix which hopefully reveals how this was all created evidence...

The FM-11 is a master list of all the incoming tourist visas: FM-5's and FM-8's.

On his 15-day visa (secured with a 180-day application) the name we are given is LEE, Harvey Oswald, or H.O. LEE.

The FM-11 is divided up by 5's and 8's as well as by the 1st-15th of a month and the 16th to the end of a month and finally, in alphabetical order.

Any reason Mr. LEE is alphabetized between "MO" and "OU" other than the obvious... whoever created these lists knew his name was not LEE, but OSWALD, despite what was right in front of whoever did it...

 

 

 

The following are two index cards typed out by a Mexican official for Mr. CASH American Consul in Nuevo Laredo listing the mode of exist as "AUTO" next to a report from January 1964.  CASH then lies to KLINE about what the records say about Oswald's departure and mode of transportation.

This is from my POV the ongoing process of disavowing the conspiracy in favor of the Lone Nut by diminishing the value of any evidence suggesting Oswald was ever with anyone.

Finally, we are to remember that we did not receive a single original document from Mexico...  they were all easily altered copies of copies.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by David Josephs
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