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David Talbot's posting today from Italy


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David Talbot wrote on Facebook today:

Thinking of JFK in Roma as I tour the Eternal City. It was his final trip abroad, and the sinister forces that would take his life just months later were already closing in on him, as I write in "The Devil's Chessboard." The Rome CIA station was being run by the agency's assassination chief and Kennedy hater, William Harvey, whose own deputy would later accuse Harvey of complicity in the JFK assassination. I believe Harvey's job was to recruit the sniper team that killed Kenn...edy, under the direction of former CIA chief Allen Dulles and his longtime acolyte James Jesus Angleton, who also had deep roots in Italy's labyrinthine security world. On the day of the assassination, Harvey was hunkered down in a top secret US base in Sardinia, just across the water from Corsica, from where he might have recruited his kill team. Meanwhile, Dulles -- for some unexplained reason -- was operating out of a secret CIA facility in northern Virginia on that fateful day, even though Kennedy had pushed him out of government two years before. Any book on the Kennedy tragedy that doesn't acknowledge Dulles, Angleton and Harvey were the key figures in this crime against American democracy is not worth reading.

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3 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

David Talbot wrote on Facebook today:

Thinking of JFK in Roma as I tour the Eternal City. It was his final trip abroad, and the sinister forces that would take his life just months later were already closing in on him, as I write in "The Devil's Chessboard." The Rome CIA station was being run by the agency's assassination chief and Kennedy hater, William Harvey, whose own deputy would later accuse Harvey of complicity in the JFK assassination. I believe Harvey's job was to recruit the sniper team that killed Kenn...edy, under the direction of former CIA chief Allen Dulles and his longtime acolyte James Jesus Angleton, who also had deep roots in Italy's labyrinthine security world. On the day of the assassination, Harvey was hunkered down in a top secret US base in Sardinia, just across the water from Corsica, from where he might have recruited his kill team. Meanwhile, Dulles -- for some unexplained reason -- was operating out of a secret CIA facility in northern Virginia on that fateful day, even though Kennedy had pushed him out of government two years before. Any book on the Kennedy tragedy that doesn't acknowledge Dulles, Angleton and Harvey were the key figures in this crime against American democracy is not worth reading.

By 11/22/63 there were at least 3 Death Squads working within the National Security State, probably over-lapping to an extent. -- CIA Harvey's ZRIFLE, Charles Siragusa's "Operation Underworld" crew in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, and CIA Technical Services Staff's MKNAOMI.

To claim that only Harvey, Angleton and Dulles had command of these resources is baseless.

 

 

 

 

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Meanwhile, Dulles -- for some unexplained reason -- was operating out of a secret CIA facility in northern Virginia on that fateful day, even though Kennedy had pushed him out of government two years before. 

And then he goes on to be part of the WC. Talk about the fox guarding the hen house.

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20 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Meanwhile, Dulles -- for some unexplained reason -- was operating out of a secret CIA facility in northern Virginia on that fateful day, even though Kennedy had pushed him out of government two years before. 

Sure about that?

He went down to Virginia after the assassination, iirc.

Quote

And then he goes on to be part of the WC. Talk about the fox guarding the hen house.

And he set up family friends of his girlfriend to host the Oswald family?

Dulles' nuts were in a vise after the JFK assassination given the Bancroft-Paines-Oswald connection -- no wonder he was the most diligent cover-up man!

 

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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Cliff - can you prove that Dulles set up family friends of his girlfriend to host Oswald? No. so your point must be that someone did in order to control Dulles, or possibly set him up.

i think Talbot's belief is that of the three possible assassinations units, the ZRrifle unit under Harvey was the most likely one used on Nov. 22. I agree. Do you? 

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In The Devil's Chessboard David Talbot describes how Col William Corson was sent on a "wild goose chase" soon after the JFK murder.

Why would the top perps arrange to have Corson distracted?

Joseph Trento, The Secret History of the CIA, pgs 334-5:

<quote on, emphasis added>

Who changed the coup into the murder of Diem, Nhu and a Catholic priest accompanying them? To this day, nothing has been found in government archives tying the killings to either John or Robert Kennedy. So how did the tools and talents developed by Bill Harvey for ZR/RIFLE and Operation MONGOOSE get exported to Vietnam? Kennedy immediately ordered (William R.) Corson to find out what had happened and who was responsible. The answer he came up with: “On instructions from Averell Harriman…. The orders that ended in the deaths of Diem and his brother originated with Harriman and were carried out by Henry Cabot Lodge’s own military assistant.”

Having served as ambassador to Moscow and governor of New York, W. Averell Harriman was in the middle of a long public career. In 1960, President-elect Kennedy appointed him ambassador-at-large, to operate “with the full confidence of the president and an intimate knowledge of all aspects of United States policy.” By 1963, according to Corson, Harriman was running “Vietnam without consulting the president or the attorney general.”

The president had begun to suspect that not everyone on his national security team was loyal. As Corson put it, “Kenny O’Donnell (JFK’s appointments secretary) was convinced that McGeorge Bundy, the national security advisor, was taking orders from Ambassador Averell Harriman and not the president. He was especially worried about Michael Forrestal, a young man on the White House staff who handled liaison on Vietnam with Harriman.”

At the heart of the murders was the sudden and strange recall of Sagon Station Chief Jocko Richardson and his replacement by a no-name team barely known to history. The key member was a Special Operations Army officer, John Michael Dunn, who took his orders, not from the normal CIA hierarchy but from Harriman and Forrestal.

According to Corson, “John Michael Dunn was known to be in touch with the coup plotters,” although Dunn’s role has never been made public. Corson believes that Richardson was removed so that Dunn, assigned to Ambassador Lodge for “special operations,” could act without hindrance.

<quote off>

Harriman was an employer.

Dulles, Angleton and Harvey were employees.

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Point well taken, but you didn't answer my questions. I didn't ask if Harvey was the top of some pyramid. Harriman did not contact the kill team. Who did? And which kill team?

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19 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Cliff - can you prove that Dulles set up family friends of his girlfriend to host Oswald? No. so your point must be that someone did in order to control Dulles, or possibly set him up.

David Lifton posited a scenario where Dulles was asked if he knew of anyone in the Dallas area who would host the family of an asset.

Dulles sent them to the Paines -- Michael Paines mom was tight with Mary Bancroft, Dulles' girlfriend.

IF that occurred, would Dulles have made the hook-up if he'd known that the asset was going to be a Commie killer of the President?

I'm convinced Oswald was set up as an agent of Fidel -- if that frame had succeeded wouldn't the Paines have faced far more intense scrutiny?

Quote

i think Talbot's belief is that of the three possible assassinations units, the ZRrifle unit under Harvey was the most likely one used on Nov. 22. I agree. Do you? 

Harvey used drug traffickers whose services were not restricted to Harvey.

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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My best guess is Lucien Conein brought in a crew who'd run guns and dope with the KMT in Laos.

a/k/a the Gary Underhill Scenario.

From Larry Hancock's Someone Would Have Talked, pg 496:

<quote on, emphasis added>

[Former CIA employee Gary] Underhill's concern was that he had become aware of a "clique" within the CIA--a clique
dealing with weapons and gun-running and making money. These individuals had Far Eastern connections, narcotics was
mentioned, supposedly the clique was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends.
Underhill believed
that these individuals had been involved with JFK's murder; he felt that JFK had become aware of their dealings and
was about to move against them in some fashion. He also believed that members of the clique knew that Underhill was
aware of their dealings and that his own life could well be in jeopardy.


<quote off>

 

Edited by Cliff Varnell
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From his base in Rome did William Harvey organize a Corsican crew to whack Kennedy?

From his base in Saigon did Lucien Conein organize guys who'd run guns to the Chinese Kuomintang (KMT) in Laos, and ran dope out of Burma/Laos, to whack Kennedy?

Only a Pet Theorist would say only one of those was possible.

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Maybe. But talbot is entitled to his well considered opinion. Harvey was very motivated, and ZR rifle was ongoing. Harvey was in touch with qjwin, whoever that was. 

Edited by Paul Brancato
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It didn't have to be Dulles setting up the Paine's personally per se.  It is entirely possible, some might say probable, that he could have suggested their use given his knowledge of and about them.  It is even more reasonable to think somebody in the CIA realized Ruth's sister worked for them, her dad had been in the OSS and worked for AID.  That Michael's step dad in essence invented the most useful Bell helicopter and that he already had a security clearance working there.  We already know that de Morenschildt had contact with CIA agent J Walton Moore in Dallas, documented.  I believe I've read GDM said in later years he would never have contacted Oswald without Moore's authorization or (?) suggestion to do so.  George later hands off the Oswasld's to the sister of a current Cia employee and daughter of a former OSS agent and gets the hell out of town.  Might someone, Dulles influenced or not, have suggested to Moore that he, an associate or employee contact Ruth and or Michael in regards to helping the good old USA keep an eye on the activities of a recently returned Russian defector and his Russian wife?  Especially such a woman who spoke Russian?  This might help explain Michael's attendance of both left and right wing gatherings in Dallas.  As well as Ruth's trip to see her sister and others in the summer of 63 them pick up Marina and (unknowingly) the rifle (?) in New Orleans.  And those files in the garage on Castro reporters.  Maybe the Paine's didn't have a "need to know" who was using them and how.  By the time they "both knew who was really responsible" they realized it was time to only say what they were told to.

Harvey deserves a separate post.  

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1 hour ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Outstanding picture, that at least I've never seen.  Thank you sir.  I counted what look like possibly 7 SSA's, maybe it's less, maybe I'm missing some.  Could they have stopped a John Hinkley Jr in a crowd like that?

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18 hours ago, Cliff Varnell said:

By 11/22/63 there were at least 3 Death Squads working within the National Security State, probably over-lapping to an extent. -- CIA Harvey's ZRIFLE, Charles Siragusa's "Operation Underworld" crew in the Federal Bureau of Narcotics, and CIA Technical Services Staff's MKNAOMI.

To claim that only Harvey, Angleton and Dulles had command of these resources is baseless.

 

So Cubans?

Also, not to go off track - and not specifically directed to Cliff - what is known about FBI's Division Five?  Death squad in reality, or just a rumor?

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