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13 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Question - did he say whether Ukrainians were aiding the Germans during the massacre of 33,000 Jews in the early days of their occupation of Kiev? 

I do not know, BUT the Germans unfortunately had supporters pretty much in every country on this globe... no need to generalize Ukrainians

Yes, extreme right had a strong hold in the east (the Azov battalion), Zelensky didn't like it (the Russians even used the presence of the Azov battalion as an excuse to invade the east...), but they were fighting the Russians so... 

Also important, the Azov battalion was actually never more than some 1.400 soldiers, just to put in into perspective...

Zelensky knows the battalion is a problem for his image, for now he has incorporated what was left of the battalion into the regular army and had the old patch-symbol removed (the one that looked like the nazis symbol) and replaced it with the standard Ukrainian trident.  

It's all very hypocrite, the world let Russia take the Krim... 

 

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30 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Question - did he say whether Ukrainians were aiding the Germans during the massacre of 33,000 Jews in the early days of their occupation of Kiev? 

No, he did not mention that. His remarks about the Kiev massacre were an introduction preparatory to his main address, which was a sweeping overview of the world today with emphasis on the war in the Ukraine. He said one day the Ukraine would join the European Community and then modified it by saying one day the European Community would join the Ukraine.

Edited by Douglas Caddy
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Matt Koch questions the figure of 33,000 Jews massacred by the Nazis in Kiev that I quoted Alexander Vindman citing in his address to the Progressive Forum. He says that I get all my talking points from MSNBC,

No, I get my facts from sundry sources, including the Holocaust Museum that also cites the 33,000 figure. I guess Matt's next target for criticism will be the Museum.

Occupation of Kiev — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (ushmm.org)

Edited by Douglas Caddy
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On 11/27/2022 at 6:35 PM, Douglas Caddy said:

Lora said, "Seems a pertinent time to bump this old thread now that we’ve sent $90 billion to fund and fortify Nazis in Ukraine who worship the aforementioned OUN-B fascist fanatic Stepan Bandera."

This extremist statement that is clearly false led me to believe she wanted to bump off the thread. I mean what kind of person would push such treacherous propaganda that can be traced back to Putin in the Kremlin? Ukrainian President Zelensky is Jewish. When the Nazis invaded the Ukraine in World War II, they moved quickly to kill 33,000 Jews. 

 


 

Douglas, first thank you and Chuck Schwartz for the first two posts in the thread.  Both were very historically informative to me.  McCloy was a bigger bastard than I knew.  Second, I don't think Lori was trying to bump off the thread by bumping it.  I'm not familiar with the details relating to her post but it seems she's addressing history in relation to current events.  Maybe she will elaborate on her comment.  She does claim in her bio to be a History nerd, like most of the rest of us.

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7 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I do not know, BUT the Germans unfortunately had supporters pretty much in every country on this globe... no need to generalize Ukrainians

Yes, extreme right had a strong hold in the east (the Azov battalion), Zelensky didn't like it (the Russians even used the presence of the Azov battalion as an excuse to invade the east...), but they were fighting the Russians so... 

Also important, the Azov battalion was actually never more than some 1.400 soldiers, just to put in into perspective...

Zelensky knows the battalion is a problem for his image, for now he has incorporated what was left of the battalion into the regular army and had the old patch-symbol removed (the one that looked like the nazis symbol) and replaced it with the standard Ukrainian trident.  

It's all very hypocrite, the world let Russia take the Krim... 

 

Thanks for that. I thought the Azov was brought in well before the invasion. We get precious little history in our main stream news. I’ve wondered for instance about the prison explosion a few months ago, which both sides blamed on each other. Was it members of Azov that were targeted?

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3 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Thanks for that. I thought the Azov was brought in well before the invasion. We get precious little history in our main stream news. I’ve wondered for instance about the prison explosion a few months ago, which both sides blamed on each other. Was it members of Azov that were targeted?

The only thing about the prisoners both sides agree to is that Azov prisoners were brought in a few days before, and they were among the ones killed.   The latest I have heard was that it was more like a fuel air explosion, not an explosion from a missile or rocket from a distance.  

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11 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Matt Koch questions the figure of 33,000 Jews massacred by the Nazis in Kiev that I quoted Alexander Vindman citing in his address to the Progressive Forum. He says that I get all my talking points from MSNBC,

No, I get my facts from sundry sources, including the Holocaust Museum that also cites the 33,000 figure. I guess Matt's next target for criticism will be the Museum.

Occupation of Kiev — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (ushmm.org)

I have used their website a lot.  But they are very stubborn...

I have tried a few time to have some data corrected, I have all the official papers (birth and marriage certificates etc to show who is who), pictures of all the persons involved in a certain case, objects directly related, you name it, somehow they won't.    Now it is not a big deal, they simply got the genders and first name wrong, but nevertheless it would do justice to the people involved, that is my family (grandparents a/o) that helped hiding a Jewish girl during WWII).  

Edited by Jean Paul Ceulemans
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4 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I have used their website a lot.  But they are very stubborn...

I have tried a few time to have some data corrected, I have all the official papers (birth and marriage certificates etc to show who is who), pictures of all the persons involved in a certain case, objects directly related, you name it, somehow they won't.    Now it is not a big deal, they simply got the genders and first name wrong, but nevertheless it would do justice to the people involved, that is my family (grandparents a/o) that helped hiding a Jewish girl during WWII).  

Was your contact with the Holocaust Museum online? If you received the brushoff there, I would advise writing a letter with the appropriate documentation enclosed addressed to the chief executive officer of the Museum using snail mail. That I what I always do in a situation like the one you describe.  Either you get a reply from the CEO or else he/she sends it internally to be answered by someone who will contact you because it came down from the CEO.

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1 hour ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Was your contact with the Holocaust Museum online? If you received the brushoff there, I would advise writing a letter with the appropriate documentation enclosed addressed to the chief executive officer of the Museum using snail mail. That I what I always do in a situation like the one you describe.  Either you get a reply from the CEO or else he/she sends it internally to be answered by someone who will contact you because it came down from the CEO.

It was indeed online I had contacted them, I'll give snail mail a go, thanks for the tip.   

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10 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Thanks for that. I thought the Azov was brought in well before the invasion. We get precious little history in our main stream news. I’ve wondered for instance about the prison explosion a few months ago, which both sides blamed on each other. Was it members of Azov that were targeted?

Paul I don't know about you but seems rather obvious to me that the Ukrainian Nazis connect back to Gladio 

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1 hour ago, Matthew Koch said:

Paul I don't know about you but seems rather obvious to me that the Ukrainian Nazis connect back to Gladio 

That would make sense. The dark side of NATO. Putin’s excuse for invading, if we’ve understood it correctly, overstates the case. But Azov was operating mostly in the Eastern part of Ukraine. The UN was tracking the civil unrest there, and I’ve read some of the reports. So I don’t doubt that Russia was pissed. Plenty of terrorist actions, apparently on both sides. Pro Russia separatists had taken over government functions, and Ukrainian forces including Azov were determined to prevent this. Whenever I try to talk about this history I get unbelieving stares, because once the invasion was underway no one cared to know, or have any perspective. But NATO must share some of the blame. That’s why I keep saying, without comment from anyone here or elsewhere, that the mobilization should have taken place before the invasion. Reminds me just a bit of Poland and Germany in September 1939, though it would have been more difficult then to protect Poland than it was to protect Ukraine now. 

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3 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

Paul I don't know about you but seems rather obvious to me that the Ukrainian Nazis connect back to Gladio 

Gladio was definitely Western-Europe (up to 1991), but nobody knows what happened when the USSR-doors opened up.

And [begin quote Wiki] In 1990, the European Parliament adopted a resolution alleging that military secret services in certain member states were involved in serious terrorism and crime, whether or not their superiors were aware. The resolution also urged investigations by the judiciaries of the countries in which those armies operated, so that their modus operandi and actual extension would be revealed. To date, only Italy, Switzerland and Belgium have had parliamentary inquiries into the matter" [end quote].  Next thing the USSR falls apart...

So nobody knows, officially pretty much nothing has been done (besides some limited parliamentary inquiries). 

Since 1991 a lot of the "old structures" (like Gladio) have changed, and unfortunately it is often unclear who is standing where and doing what.... making it hard to proof somebody is wrong or not (thàt they do know... and make use of).

 

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5 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Gladio was definitely Western-Europe (up to 1991), but nobody knows what happened when the USSR-doors opened up.

And [begin quote Wiki] In 1990, the European Parliament adopted a resolution alleging that military secret services in certain member states were involved in serious terrorism and crime, whether or not their superiors were aware. The resolution also urged investigations by the judiciaries of the countries in which those armies operated, so that their modus operandi and actual extension would be revealed. To date, only Italy, Switzerland and Belgium have had parliamentary inquiries into the matter" [end quote].  Next thing the USSR falls apart...

So nobody knows, officially pretty much nothing has been done (besides some limited parliamentary inquiries). 

Since 1991 a lot of the "old structures" (like Gladio) have changed, and unfortunately it is often unclear who is standing where and doing what.... making it hard to proof somebody is wrong or not (thàt they do know... and make use of).

 

Here is an old and a new article posing the same question.

 https://www.voltairenet.org/article182860.html

https://covertactionmagazine.com/2022/11/01/is-the-u-s-and-nato-running-another-operation-gladio-in-europe/

 

 

In the last couple of years there have been a couple of Gladio like plots broken up in Italy 
https://www.vice.com/en/article/4axpeq/italy-neo-nazis-order-of-hagal

https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/italy-arrests-neonazis-affiliated-with-azov-battalion
 

 

 

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Somehow, I don't think the Azov battalion will be dispensed with as quickly and finally as in the days when Hitler could take down Ernst Rohm and the SA in one night, without interference.  Their domestic and international supporters will live on the internet until renascence.  And live on within foreign governments, as with Gladio.

Edited by David Andrews
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Douglas, I'm curious.  After reading your first post, Chuck's and the rest of the thread, why did you title it Allen?  No delving into Dulles.  Though he is second on the list of participants.  Might you think he was the most influential, manipulative on it?

He reputedly helped set up the ratlines.  Didn't he help get Gehlen to the US and was there to greet, compfort and aide him? 

Edited by Ron Bulman
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