Allen

[Matthew Koch]

22 hours ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Gladio was definitely Western-Europe (up to 1991), but nobody knows what happened when the USSR-doors opened up.

And [begin quote Wiki] In 1990, the European Parliament adopted a resolution alleging that military secret services in certain member states were involved in serious terrorism and crime, whether or not their superiors were aware. The resolution also urged investigations by the judiciaries of the countries in which those armies operated, so that their modus operandi and actual extension would be revealed. To date, only Italy, Switzerland and Belgium have had parliamentary inquiries into the matter" [end quote].  Next thing the USSR falls apart...

So nobody knows, officially pretty much nothing has been done (besides some limited parliamentary inquiries). 

Since 1991 a lot of the "old structures" (like Gladio) have changed, and unfortunately it is often unclear who is standing where and doing what.... making it hard to proof somebody is wrong or not (thàt they do know... and make use of).

 

From The Skorzeny Papers P.119 Chapter PB7

They had both fear and hatred of Communism and some had been (N word that the forum censors) collaborators or served in volunteer SS units fighting for Germany. 

It was precisely these groups that were targeted for recruitment by Frank Wisner's OPC. It was under the guidance set forth under NSC 10/2 that Labor Service companies were secretly financed and used as cover for paramilitary programs involving covert warfare. The secret formation was to serve as guerrilla units for a potential war with the Soviets. An excellent background on the use of Labor Companies and the reasons for their formation is described in the book, Blowback: America's Recruitment of Nazis and Its Destructive Impact on Our Domestic and Foreign Policy, by author Christopher Simpson. In Blowback, Simpson reveals the U.S. war planning involved in the use of Labor companies and their importance to much larger strategic nuclear war preparations. 
          U.S. intelligence was keenly aware that the (N word Censored by Forum) had created similar work brigades of Ukrainians and foreign-born Germans for use during the invasions of Poland and the Baltic states. These (N word Censored by Forum) Labor Service squads also served as hitmen, organized into special assassination units. During the war Skorzeny had established sabotage schools that trained Russian defectors, Ukrainians, Latvians, and others for the Baltic countries. During the latter part of World War II, Skorzeny was involved setting up stay-behind formations of the Ukrainian underground in a secret program designated Operation Sonnenblume (sunflower). After the war, some of the foreigners associated with Skorzeny's schools ended up in the émigré camps and undoubtedly sought work in the Service Labor companies. 

 

*Pretty annoying that the forum sensors basic words I couldn't fully quote because it wouldn't let me post. 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Matthew Koch

[Guest]

They "recruited" every where. 

In Belgium there was the "Flemisch Legion".  In 1943 they made it the "27th Sturmdivision / SS-Brigade Langemarck".   A legion from Finland was added to that, as was the "Volunteer Legion from the Netherlands".   They were active heading Leningrad, later on in Poland, Ukraine and so on.  

"French collaborator divisions" were used on the front in North-Africa, but there was also the "French militia division" that operated within France against the France resistance.

So what happened in Belgium, France, Finland, the Netherlands,... also happened in Ukraine and so on.

But it has to be put in perspective, e.g. the Flemish Legion was only some 2.000 men but their numbers were quickly reduced (they soon had to merge all these foreign divisions into one single because of high casualties)

In the newspaper- and cinema-propaganda they were constantly reporting how much progress they made etc, trying to recruit more.  In reality these collaborator troops had the most casualties as the German divisions always send them ahead.  

After the war those that survived were sentenced to prison for life because of collaboration.  But a few years later that was systematically reduced, most were only in prison for a few years.  Only the very worst (usually those that did terrible things in concentration camps) were sentenced to death.

   

 

 

 

[Matthew Koch]

On 12/1/2022 at 1:26 AM, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

They "recruited" every where. 

In Belgium there was the "Flemisch Legion".  In 1943 they made it the "27th Sturmdivision / SS-Brigade Langemarck".   A legion from Finland was added to that, as was the "Volunteer Legion from the Netherlands".   They were active heading Leningrad, later on in Poland, Ukraine and so on.  

"French collaborator divisions" were used on the front in North-Africa, but there was also the "French militia division" that operated within France against the France resistance.

So what happened in Belgium, France, Finland, the Netherlands,... also happened in Ukraine and so on.

But it has to be put in perspective, e.g. the Flemish Legion was only some 2.000 men but their numbers were quickly reduced (they soon had to merge all these foreign divisions into one single because of high casualties)

In the newspaper- and cinema-propaganda they were constantly reporting how much progress they made etc, trying to recruit more.  In reality these collaborator troops had the most casualties as the German divisions always send them ahead.  

After the war those that survived were sentenced to prison for life because of collaboration.  But a few years later that was systematically reduced, most were only in prison for a few years.  Only the very worst (usually those that did terrible things in concentration camps) were sentenced to death. 

It's perplexing to me how you will bend over backwards to defend Ukrainian Fascists but will rush to judgement about Conservative Populists.. 
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-National socialist-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946

Edited December 6, 2022 by Matthew Koch

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Matthew Koch said:

It's perplexing to me how you will bend over backwards to defend Ukrainian Fascists but will rush to judgement about Conservative Populists.. 
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/ukraine-has-National socialist-problem-vladimir-putin-s-denazification-claim-war-ncna1290946

I strongly protest you stating I am defending Ukranian Fascists.

Please explain how I have defended them ?

I pointed to collaboration during WW II, because that was a problem in all countries, not just Ukraine.

On the post WWII follow-up and underground structures like Gladio - I pointed to the fact that virtually nothing had been done to investigate those (with the exception of some parliamentory inquiries). 

In short that's about it, how is that defending Fascists ?

I quote myself :  "the Germans unfortunately had supporters pretty much in every country on this globe" (emphasise added).

And I really don't want to get started on the misery that nazism and fascism have caused to my family during WWII.  If there is one thing on this planet I am proud of : what my ancestors have done during WW II on pretty much ALL levels of what they could do (from being on the frontline in Normandy, to hiding Jewish children, and a bunch of stuff in between).   

You can call me anything, but if you think I am defending Fascists...  really ?

 

 

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Matthew Koch]

15 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

I strongly protest you stating I am defending Ukranian Fascists.

Please explain how I have defended them ?

I pointed to collaboration during WW II, because that was a problem in all countries, not just Ukraine.

On the post WWII follow-up and underground structures like Gladio - I pointed to the fact that virtually nothing had been done to investigate those (with the exception of some parliamentory inquiries). 

In short that's about it, how is that defending Fascists ?

I quote myself :  "the Germans unfortunately had supporters pretty much in every country on this globe" (emphasise added).

And I really don't want to get started on the misery that nazism and fascism have caused to my family during WWII.  If there is one thing on this planet I am proud of : what my ancestors have done during WW II on pretty much ALL levels of what they could do (from being on the frontline in Normandy, to hiding Jewish children, and a bunch of stuff in between).   

You can call me anything, but if you think I am defending Fascists...  really ?

 

 

 

If I'm wrong then I apologize, but when you made the comment on the other page that the Azov was just around a thousand guys and it is embarrassing for Zelensky.. Well, the facts don't support that liberal media narrative and when I cited Skorzeny recruiting from Ukraine you made it a point to counter what I wrote by saying that they recruited from everywhere. Which when the subject is; is the azov battalion a continuation of NATO Gladio you seemed to poo poo that idea. SO that is why I said what I said, I was implying that you were a liberal that doesn't believe there are people like that in Ukraine.. pretty funny though that you took it as I was calling you a word that is censored and started virtue signaling, lol, My family fought the Imperial Japan and Fascist Italy and my grandma made bullets during the war... The problem in Ukraine is more widespread and it is different from the cliche Hollywood portrayal that you seems to only know about. The Azov battalion embraces it's fascist ideology as being anti slavic and that is why they embrace the regalia of the SS. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/12/02/world/europe/zelensky-ukraine-orthodox-church.html Zelensky is going to ban the Russian Orthodox Church do you think that's a problem or should we just keep supporting him no matter what? 

[Guest]

I wrote : ""Zelensky knows the battalion is a problem for his image,"  

I did not say it was embarrasing to him in the context of them being just a small battalion.   

I said it was a problem for his image, and with that I meant them being freaking Nazis, and being associated with them is freaking embarrassing, or not ?     

I admit I know very little about the Russian Orthodox Church, but it seems Kirill has supported Putin from the beginning of the war. He referred to those opposing the invasion as the 'forces of evil'....  correct me if I'm wrong.  So perhaps there is a reason for Zelensky to close those churhes, don't know for sure

I try to be careful on news from the region, there's a lot of populism and propaganda.   Anyway, it's easy for us to talk about it, there are no bombs falling on our houses or hospitals...  I just hope the damn thing stops asap.  And again, to be clear once and forever :  I pretty much HATE everything that's extreme or ultra, I have never seen any good coming from that.

That all I have to say about this issue.   Back to JFK as far as I'm concerned

[Guest]

-

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Jean Paul Ceulemans

[Guest]

On 11/29/2022 at 8:33 PM, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Gladio was definitely Western-Europe (up to 1991), but nobody knows what happened when the USSR-doors opened up.

And [begin quote Wiki] In 1990, the European Parliament adopted a resolution alleging that military secret services in certain member states were involved in serious terrorism and crime, whether or not their superiors were aware. The resolution also urged investigations by the judiciaries of the countries in which those armies operated, so that their modus operandi and actual extension would be revealed. To date, only Italy, Switzerland and Belgium have had parliamentary inquiries into the matter" [end quote].  Next thing the USSR falls apart...

So nobody knows, officially pretty much nothing has been done (besides some limited parliamentary inquiries). 

Since 1991 a lot of the "old structures" (like Gladio) have changed, and unfortunately it is often unclear who is standing where and doing what.... making it hard to proof somebody is wrong or not (thàt they do know... and make use of).

 

Yesterday December 7, 2022, 25 members of a far-right terrorist group were arrested for allegedly planning a coup d'état in Germany.

Quote : The group is known to be right-wing, and regularly promotes antisemitic ideology. The planned coup included a storming of the Reichstag, the German parliament building, inspired by the January 6 United States Capitol attack from 2021.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Germany_coup_d'état_plot

 

[Matthew Koch]

48 minutes ago, Jean Paul Ceulemans said:

Yesterday December 7, 2022, 25 members of a far-right terrorist group were arrested for allegedly planning a coup d'état in Germany.

Quote : The group is known to be right-wing, and regularly promotes antisemitic ideology. The planned coup included a storming of the Reichstag, the German parliament building, inspired by the January 6 United States Capitol attack from 2021.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Germany_coup_d'état_plot

 

WOW 3,000 police to arrest a whole 25 people, sounds very serious!! JK sounds like since Zelensky's False Flag attempt at shooting a missile into Poland didn't work to trigger article 5 for NATO so maybe this will, OMG it even connects to RUSSIA!! https://www.newsweek.com/russia-germany-coup-plot-far-right-moscow-1765633

[Lori Spencer]

On 11/28/2022 at 2:12 PM, Douglas Caddy said:

Alexander Vindman talked about it at the beginning of his speech before the Progressive Forum in Houston on October 13. He said the massacre of 33,000 Jews took place in Kiev soon after the National Socialists seized the city. He said that shortly before the National Socialists arrived, his father with family fled Kiev and settled in a hamlet in the Ural Mountains in the Soviet Union. Alexander was a child then. The family rode out the war while in the hamlet

There’s no way Alexander Vindman was there as he claimed to be… he is 47 years old. 
 

The battle of Kiev was in 1941, long before he was born. 

[Lori Spencer]

On 11/28/2022 at 3:32 PM, Paul Brancato said:

Question - did he say whether Ukrainians were aiding the Germans during the massacre of 33,000 Jews in the early days of their occupation of Kiev? 

Great question, Paul.

Presumably Vindman was referring to the Babi Yar massacre outside Kiev, where nearly 34,000 Jews were killed within 48 hours in 1941 when the city was under Yahtzee occupation. The killing was carried out by SS troops along with local Ukrainian collaborators.

The Ukrainian Waffen SS divisions were known to be some of the most brutal Yahtzee killers during the war. 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Lori Spencer

[Lori Spencer]

On 11/30/2022 at 11:43 AM, Matthew Koch said:

*Pretty annoying that the forum sensors basic words I couldn't fully quote because it wouldn't let me post. 

Agreed. It’s a word that merely describes the name of Germany’s National Socialist Party. I don’t find it offensive. It’s just history. Why is it censored? (For the time being I’m just typing the word Yahtzee in its place, lol) 

[David Andrews]

2 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

Why is it censored?

It was becoming, um, overused here.

[Douglas Caddy]

4 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

There’s no way Alexander Vindman was there as he claimed to be… he is 47 years old. 
 

The battle of Kiev was in 1941, long before he was born. 

Forum members are invited to listen to the full interview of Alexander Vindman sponsored by the Progressive Forum in Houston where I live. Because it was a sold-out event, I was seated near the rear of the immense room in which the event was held and at times had trouble hearing all that he said. Listen here to the living testimony by one of the great men of our time.

Alexander Vindman Livestream | The Progressive Forum (progressiveforumhouston.org)

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Douglas Caddy

[Douglas Caddy]

7 hours ago, Lori Spencer said:

Great question, Paul.

Presumably Vindman was referring to the Babi Yar massacre outside Kiev, where nearly 34,000 Jews were killed within 48 hours in 1941 when the city was under Yahtzee occupation. The killing was carried out by SS troops along with local Ukrainian collaborators.

The Ukrainian Waffen SS divisions were known to be some of the most brutal Yahtzee killers during the war. 

Vindman was referring to the 33771 Jews killed in Kiev in two days in September 1941. The Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. has a section highlighting this.

Occupation of Kiev — United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (ushmm.org)