The Paine Files

[Steve Thomas]

16 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Gene and Steve, since you both say that Lee and Marina did stay at Neely for  a short period of time, what do you make of that stay?

What was it all about?  Or am I wrong.  Do you not think they actually stayed there?

But if so, why was Ruth Paine so involved with Neely?

Jim,

I have a suspicion that Marina never went back to Elsbeth.

George DeMohrenschildt and George Bouhe had convinced Marina to leave Lee. They packed up all her stuff and moved her. She had so much "stuff" that George DeM said that his car was dragging on the ground. He estimated that she had at least 100 dresses that the women in the White Russian Community had collected for her.

When Gary Taylor moved them from Fort Worth to Elsbeth, he had to rent a U-Haul trailer to move it all.

And yet, Mrs. Tobias said that when they move from Elsbeth to Neely, they packed up their belongings in a baby stroller and walked over.

My question has always been, "What happened to all their "stuff"? (I feel like George Carlin here). What happened to the hundred dresses?

If, as Marguerite says, Marina was staying at Neely with a German guy, my bet would be on Alexander Kleinlerer. (He was hitting on her when she was staying at the Hall's).

Steve Thomas

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Joe Bauer said:

he replied smugly ..."they didn't ask."

They didn't ask.

How's that in honoring your ordered, hand on the bible

 

Joe,

In all fairness to Hosty, and let me say up front that I don't trust Hosty as far as I could throw him, but that's the way Federal agents and police officers are trained to answer, when they are on the witness stand. Never volunteer anything, and only answer the specific questions that are put to you. No more, no less.

Steve Thomas

[Gene Kelly]

Jim

I do not think the Oswalds ever lived at this apartment. I am influenced by the work of Greg Parker and Ed LeDoux in this regard.  Oswald was making $1.35 per hour at Jaggers Chiles Stovall during the month of March 1963, but he was paying $72.68 a month for a one-bedroom flat at the Neely Street house (doesn't compute)?  It appears that the apartment at 214 W. Neely was a CIA safe house. The landlord (Waldo George, odd name, an intelligence tease/joke) doesn't provide a consistent surname in several documents, and he alleges that someone with a duplicate key broke into the apartment  during the Fall when it was unoccupied.  All of his interviews are second-hand, with weak (or nonexistent) documentation.  Considering that the incrimination of Oswald depends in large part upon proving his stay at Neely St., its not well investigated or corroborated.   I've come to belive that both Ruth and Marina were complicit in all of this ... not just innocent dupes. There's a compelling coincidence to Ruth's alleged "visits" and the weapons transactions.  My speculation is that Ruth is somehow protecting Marina's cover, by removing her from the scene during certain crucial times. This is so the setup weapons can be ordered/delivered - to this residence (at least on paper) - by the plotters.  Ruth is surely engaged in allegedly visiting the Oswalds at Neely St., and in moving them out. They were only allegedly there for about 7 weeks.  A lot of milestone (incriminating) events occurred during that brief period. They all involved Lee (and notably not Marina).   

I am reminded that the order for the revolver from Seaports was apparently an inside joke, by claiming the name of the person who could vouch for the buyer was D.F. Drittal. Greg Parker pointed out that this stands for the German phrase Dienst Fur Drittel - "on behalf of a third party."  Another coincidence is the G-2 linguist John Hurt, who married a Russian immigrant, Ana Drittel, a performing, NY cellist. Eleven months later, the FBI obtains a mail order record of an order for a pistol purchase, with a witness signature signed D.E. or D.F. Drittal.  Someone was making a subtle but overt mockery of the scheme.

Gene

[James DiEugenio]

Thank you both for your replies.

I actually mentioned the issue of Neely on Black Op Radio today. 

I think its a legitimate issue.  Why the heck would Oswald put down Taylor's address on that postal form?

 

 

 

 

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thank you both for your replies.

I actually mentioned the issue of Neely on Black Op Radio today. 

I think its a legitimate issue.  Why the heck would Oswald put down Taylor's address on that postal form?

Jim,

Th truth is, nobody knew where the hell Oswald was staying during the month of October, 1962.

(Other than the short stint he was at the YMCA from October 15-19)

Oswald rented P.O. Box 2915 on October 9, 1962

A good source of info can be found at Mary Ferrell's Chronologies pages 75+

Mary Ferrell Chronologies (page 75)

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=40390#relPageId=75&tab=page

(Page 78)

(Page 79)

Steve Thomas

 

[James DiEugenio]

Steve:

Are you implying that he might have been at Taylor's?

[Tony Krome]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

I actually mentioned the issue of Neely on Black Op Radio today. 

There are good cases for and against Neely St

Those that believe Oswald didn't stay there, have to consider the following (Off the top of my head);

Both Paines said he was at Neely

Both DeMohrenschildts said he was at Neely

Mrs Hall said she and her husband John got directions from Elsbeth to Oswald's new place blocks away and were there for Easter

Gary Taylor specifically describes the Neely upstairs verandah. He was there alone with Marina telling her about his divorce. hmmm

Gary Taylor had it in for the DeMohrenschildts during his testimony, so I have trouble working out why he'd be going along with any conspiracy concerning Neely

 

[Gene Kelly]

Tony

Most of the "evidence" that Lee Oswald lived at the Neely St. apartment comes from his wife (Marina), Ruth and Michael Paine, George and Jeanne DeMohrenschildt, and Gary Taylor.  Its all verbal and word of mouth (duly recorded in FBI/SS interviews and by Warren Commission testimony.  There's no physical proof or documentation (i.e. real evidence).   Not sure that I would put much stock in these sources. Admittedly, I don't know much about Gary Taylor, but he threw George deMohrenschildt under the bus during his Warren testimony.  Oswald later told his interrogators in custody not once but twice that he had never lived there. When it was pointed out that certain friends of his had told police that they had visited him there, he assured the police that they were mistaken.  Lee disassociated himself from Neely St., contradicting their statements ... perhaps (speculating, but I believe his word) because he now understood that he had been used and set up.  After this infamous residency, no one else apparently rents or lives at Neely Street until after the assassination.  What puzzles me (and others) is, when Lee returned from his fictitious visit to Mexico and his shenanigans in New Orleans - why didn't he just resume living at Neely Street (with Marina)?  There's something fishy about that address. 

 

Gene

[Tony Krome]

Gene, refresh yourself with Halls testimony, she even describes Marina's sunburnt face over Easter, that she got from fishing with Oswald at that lake up the road from Neely. I don't believe I've seen that elsewhere.

Sure, it could have been decided amongst themselves that the Paine's, the DeMohrenshiltds, the Halls and Taylor would all create Neely out of thin air, but it's a slight stretch. Not impossible though.

[Steve Thomas]

4 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

Steve:

Are you implying that he might have been at Taylor's?

Jim,

No. Just the opposite.

According to George Bouhe (WC testimony)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/bouhe.htm

Mr. LIEBELER - Did youl know where Oswald lived when he moved to Dallas?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes, sir.
Mr. LIEBELER - Where?
Mr. BOUHE - YMCA on Ervay Street.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know how long he lived there?
Mr. BOUHE - I certainly would be willing to bet that he lived there from about October the 7th or 8th, I am sorry, about October 8, which is a Monday, until about October 18. But that latter figure I do not know myself except from an FBI agent who told me he checked out on the 18th, but that I do know.
Mr. LIEBELER - Do you know where he moved when he checked out of the YMCA?
Mr. BOUHE - At some point thereabouts he threw at me when I asked, "Where do you live now?" He gave me, if I recall correctly, a name of the Carlton boarding house on Madison Avenue, but it proved to be wrong.
Mr. LIEBELER - Did you tell the FBI that he told you he lived at the Carlton boarding house?
Mr. BOUHE - Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER - The FBI checked it out and told you subsequently that he had not lived there?
Mr. BOUHE - That's correct. The FBI men went there, and it developed that Oswald told me a lie to send me on a wild goose chase, but the name strikes me somehow; and FBI rechecked this place and said it was a bum steer.

Except that Oswald didn’t move to the YMCA until October 15^th.

Like I said, nobody knew where the hell he was living. In my mind, October of 1962 would be one of the most fruitful areas of research a researcher could look for.

Steve Thomas

 

[Gene Kelly]

Tony

I'm not too familiar with Mrs. Elena Hall.  She was apparently a member of the White Russian cabal (Anna Meller, George Bouhe, George deMohrenschildt, Max Clark, Mrs. Elena Hall, Lydia Dymitruk and  Igor Vladimir Voshinin) that surrounding the Oswalds.  She and her husband are apparently from New York.  I'd recommend that you study the Warren Commission testimony of one Alexander Kleinlerer, who really does a number on Lee Oswald, painting him in the worst possible light (as a husband and a Communist). It was way over the top ... for example:

Other friends told me he frequently compared conditions here in America with those in Russia to the detriment of America and he did this in a way that was contemptuous of America. They said he would repeatedly say that there was no unemployment in Russia but that there was a lot of it in America; that capitalists in America lived off the workers. They said he argued that in Russia medical attention and care was at hand and was free, whereas in America you either had to pay doctors or hospitals or that even in clinics you always had to pay something.

We had just begun to discuss the matter of moving the next day when Oswald observed that the zipper on Marina's skirt was not completely closed. He called to her in a very angry and commanding tone of voice just like an officer commanding a soldier. His exact words were, "Come Here!", in the Russian Language, and he uttered them the way you would call a dog with which you were displeased in order to inflict punishment on him. He was standing in the doorway leading from the living room into another room of the house. When she reached the doorway he rudely reprimanded her in a flat imperious voice about being careless in her dress and slapped her hard in the face twice. Marina still had the baby in her arms. Her face was red and tears came to her eyes. All this took place in my presence. I was very much embarrassed and also angry but I had long been afraid of Oswald and I did not say anything.

I would also point out that, in March 2008, Dr. Michal Freda Kleinlerer and Dr. Jonathan David Shenkin were married at Blue Hill at Stone Barns, the restaurant on the Rockefeller family’s Pocantico Hills estate in Tarrytown, N.Y. The bride was an orthodontist with practices in Bangor and Waterville, Me. and graduated magna cum laude from the University of Pennsylvania with two degrees from Harvard: a Doctor of Medical Dentistry and a Master of Medical Science in developmental biology. She is the daughter of Alexander Kleinlerer of New York and the late Nitza Kleinlerer.  Does the Rockefeller connection stand out to you? 

So, I don't belive the second-hand comments of Mrs. Elena Hall (one of Oswald's character assassins). You should also read the rebuttal of this Russian group (and the Halls) written by Robert Charles Dunne in February 2017 entitled "Was Oswald a Serial Wife Batterer" published in Kennedys and King.   Neely St. was pure smoke and mirrors. 

Gene

 

[Ron Bulman]

I've never heard of Kleinlerer, much less his WO testimony.  Thanks, my education continues.  Given his testimony and daughter being married on the Rockefeller estate I wonder if he might have known Dulles.   

If Neely St. was smoke and mirrors I guess the back yard photos are questionable, at best?  Maybe Jack White was on to something after all. 

http://www.jfktourdallas.com/neely-street.html  

[Steve Thomas]

5 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

I've never heard of Kleinlerer, much less his WO testimony.  Thanks, my education continues.  Given his testimony and daughter being married on the Rockefeller estate I wonder if he might have known Dulles.   

If Neely St. was smoke and mirrors I guess the back yard photos are questionable, at best?  Maybe Jack White was on to something after all. 

http://www.jfktourdallas.com/neely-street.html  

Ron,

Kleinlerer and his girlfriend Lydia Dimytruk are definitely worth looking into. Do a Google search for George Bloodworth.

Lydia Dimytruk is Kleinlerer's girlfriend.

For more information on Lydia Dimytruk, see: (she is a piece of work!)

 

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/FBI%20Records%20Files/105-82555/105-82555%20More%20Referrals/105-82555%20More%20Referrals%203-04.pdf

pp. 13-33, Suspected of being a Russian spy. Formerly married to Vasily Kostenko, also suspected of being a Russian spy.

She marries Pavel Dimytruk in 1956. Emigrates to the U.S. In 1959 and divorces him in 1960.

Sound familiar?

 

FBI - HSCA Subject File: Lydia Dymitruk (page 9 in the file, page 7 of the Report

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=129757&search=Alexander_Kleinlerer#relPageId=9&tab=page

On December 3, 1968 the FBI interviewed a George Bloodworth, who was a Warrant Officer Candidate in the U.S. Army Helicopter School in Mineral Wells, Texas. He met George Bouhe in the apartment of Alexander Kleinlerer. Bloodworth had formerly been in the Marines and had been stationed at the U.S. Embassy in Tunisia. He was very security conscious. Kleinlerer left the apartment to buy some food at a delicatessen, and Bloodworth and Bouhe got to talking. While they were talking, Bloodworth got the impression that Bouhe was “one of us”, meaning an Army Intelligence Agent.

 

AGENT REPORT

For use of this form, see F M 30-f7(C); AR 381-130; the proponent agency is the Office of the Assistant Chief of Stoff for Intelligence.

1 NAME Of SUBJECT OR FILE OF INCIDENT: SAEDA (U) Munich, FRG

28 Sep 76

2 DATE SUBMITTED: 23 March 1977

4 REPORT OP FINDINGS

Kleinlerer and Mrs. (George) Bloodworth then went to a delicatessen to purchase some items, and were absent from the apartment approximately 45 minutes. During this time Bouhe and Lydia (Dimytruk) asked Bloodworth numerous questions concerning the types of helicopters in use by the US and about the armament capabilities of these helicopters. During the questioning, Bouhe and Lydia also engaged in conversations between themselves in a language other than English. In response to Bloodworth's questions, they informed him that they were speaking in the Russian language. Bouhe asked Bloodworth what he thought about the Vietnam War and how long he thought it would take before the war ended. Bloodworth thought it strange that two civilians would be asking questions about helicopter armament and only answered their questions when he knew the information was unclassified and could be read in any aviation magazine or newspaper.

Bloodworth was not questioned about his background. Bloodworth overheard Bouhe and Lydia talking about two radios that were located in the apartment. Lydia stated that Kleinlerer had bought another radio and Bouhe immediately asked why, because he (Bouhe) had given Kleinlerer a radio that would receive "Moscow." Bloodworth noticed two radios located on a table in the rear of Kleinlerer’s apartment, however could provide no positive identifying data on the radios because they were encased.

 

PS: I have always been suspicious of the radio that seemed to be so important to Oswald.

Steve Thomas

[Gene Kelly]

Steve

Thanks for turning me on to Kleinerer.  He is quite the interesting character.  Mrs. Gibson (Gary Taylor's ex-wife) described Alex Kleinerer as:

"Short, very dark, moustache, black moustache, European dresser, an accent, very much the gangster type in his looks, very oily looking, very oily in personality, actually a rather creepy customer. He spoke Russian fluently.

She believed that he came from Paris (he was actually a survivor of the Concentration Camps). The area in Poland in which he originally resided was apparently overrun by the German Army, and he was confined in Buchenwald. He allegedly lost his entire family. Mrs. Gibson had no idea what his occupation was. But she shared that Kleinerer did not get along with Lee, and had arguments about Marina and how Lee allegedly beat her. His Warren deposition (he was never brought before the Commission or questioned) states that he witnessed  Oswald abusing his wife (the only person with such first-hand knowledge).  He lived next door to the enigmatic Lydia Dymitruk, was a naturalized American citizen, later lived in NYC and appears to have Rockefeller connections.  He seems a charter member of Dulles' Operation Paperclip.  

Gene   

[James DiEugenio]

Congrats. 

Steve and Gene are doing a nice job peeling back the White Russians group that I thought was always so suspicious.

Kleinerer was a real piece of work.