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On 8/5/2017 at 10:07 AM, Ray Mitcham said:

Buddy Walthers

"Upon searching this house we found stacks of hand bills concerning "Cuba for Freedom" advertising, seeking publicity and support for Cuba. Also found was a set of metal file cabinets containing records that appeared to be names and activities of Cuban sympathizers. All of this evidence was confiscated and turned over to Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police Department and Secret Service Officers at the City Hall."

"Mr. WALTHERS. You could tell it from the way it was tied and the impression of where that barrel went up in it where it was tied, that a rifle had been tied in it, but what kind---you couldn't tell, but you could tell a rifle had been wrapped up in it, and then we found some little metal file cabinets---I don't know what kind you would call them---they would carry an 8 by 10 folder, all right, but with a single handle on top of it and the handle moves. 
Mr. LIEBELER. About how many of them would you think there were? 
Mr. WALTHERS. There were six or seven, I believe, and I put them all in the trunk of my car and we also found a box of pictures, a bunch of pictures that we taken. 

 


 "Some imagination."

We should probably bump this thread for the benefit of Greg Douda and Steve Roe on Jim's Excellent Thread about Vasilios Vazakas Excellent Article.  Walthers/Dallas Sheriff's Office, DPD/Oxford, Michael Paine framing Oswald...  Both should read the whole thread if they are objective, then comment, concisely.

Report of J. L. Oxford (mu.edu)

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On 1/19/2021 at 9:21 PM, Ron Bulman said:

We should probably bump this thread for the benefit of Greg Douda and Steve Roe on Jim's Excellent Thread about Vasilios Vazakas Excellent Article.  Walthers/Dallas Sheriff's Office, DPD/Oxford, Michael Paine framing Oswald...  Both should read the whole thread if they are objective, then comment, concisely.

Report of J. L. Oxford (mu.edu)

See my comment on the "Creating the Oswald Legend: Part 6" (Vasilios Vazakas) thread, concerning the Walthers claim of seeing files of Cuban sympathizers in Ruth Paine's metal boxes (mistakenly supposed by Walthers at the time to be Oswald's metal boxes). Since Ruth Paine's files and records in those metal boxes were unrelated to Cuban sympathizers according to Dallas police and all others who reviewed and reported the contents for what they were, and since Ruth Paine had no involvement in a Cuban sympathizers' organization by which she would have had occasion to have accumulated any such files, it seems obvious that Walthers' conclusion was a simple mistake, caused by his misunderstanding Ruth Paine's metal boxes with papers and files to be in association with a stack of Oswald's FPCC (Fair Play for Cuba Committee) posters Walthers found first, immediately adjoining the metal boxes with Ruth's unrelated materials: https://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/26906-creating-the-oswald-legend-part-6/page/2/#comments

 

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I'm not confused.  The files belonged to the Paines.  That's why Michael tried to implicate Lee regarding them.  Lee couldn't have toted them around in his travels.  Pretty basic and simple.  The files existed in the Paines garage, they were confiscated, then disappeared. 

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The metal boxes and papers and materials therein belonged to Ruth Paine--nothing of Michael's as I recall. Why are you saying "Michael tried to implicate Lee regarding them"? Explain? I am not aware that Michael had anything to do with those metal boxes or their contents, let alone trying to connect Oswald to anything in Ruth's metal boxes. What does Michael have to do with this?

No, Lee did not tote around Ruth's metal boxes or any of Ruth's contents therein in his travels, agree on that point.

Ruth has told many times that her files and papers were folk dance records and such. Ruth's description of her property is backed up by every DPD and other law enforcement person who had custody of Ruth's property wrongfully taken that day--law enforcement officers who had much more time and leisure to look through and study Ruth's belongings than Walthers in his grabbing everything from the garage that looked like it was Oswald's. 

There were files and records in Ruth Paine's metal boxes but they were not Cuban sympathizers. Walthers was not intending to lie or be mistaken, but he was mistaken. "Cuban sympathizer files" in Ruth's metal boxes never disappeared at any point because they never existed in the first place.

Why are you so certain Walthers could not have been mistaken? Why are you so certain Ruth's identification of her files and papers and belongings could not possibly be true?

I think you will agree Walthers was mistaken in thinking those metal boxes belonged to Oswald. That's what Walthers thought, or else he would not have illegally taken Ruth's property that day. He thought, he assumed that, but he was mistaken. 

But if you agree Walthers was mistaken on that basic point, why are you so dead set certain Walthers could not possibly have been mistaken in assuming that names and addresses in the metal boxes were associated with Oswald's nearby FPCC literature?  

I mean, Walthers sees names and addresses in Ruth's belongings which he mistakenly thinks are Oswald's papers--how would he know that names look like "Cuban sympathizers"? How would you know if you saw some names and addresses, that they were "Cuban sympathizers"? Think about it. 

This mobbing of Ruth Paine on this kind of insubstantial basis is just witchhunt logic. Ron, do you ever consider that you might be mistaken? 

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On 1/22/2021 at 1:53 AM, Greg Doudna said:

The metal boxes and papers and materials therein belonged to Ruth Paine--nothing of Michael's as I recall. Why are you saying "Michael tried to implicate Lee regarding them"? Explain? I am not aware that Michael had anything to do with those metal boxes or their contents, let alone trying to connect Oswald to anything in Ruth's metal boxes. What does Michael have to do with this?

No, Lee did not tote around Ruth's metal boxes or any of Ruth's contents therein in his travels, agree on that point.

Ruth has told many times that her files and papers were folk dance records and such. Ruth's description of her property is backed up by every DPD and other law enforcement person who had custody of Ruth's property wrongfully taken that day--law enforcement officers who had much more time and leisure to look through and study Ruth's belongings than Walthers in his grabbing everything from the garage that looked like it was Oswald's. 

There were files and records in Ruth Paine's metal boxes but they were not Cuban sympathizers. Walthers was not intending to lie or be mistaken, but he was mistaken. "Cuban sympathizer files" in Ruth's metal boxes never disappeared at any point because they never existed in the first place.

Why are you so certain Walthers could not have been mistaken? Why are you so certain Ruth's identification of her files and papers and belongings could not possibly be true?

I think you will agree Walthers was mistaken in thinking those metal boxes belonged to Oswald. That's what Walthers thought, or else he would not have illegally taken Ruth's property that day. He thought, he assumed that, but he was mistaken. 

But if you agree Walthers was mistaken on that basic point, why are you so dead set certain Walthers could not possibly have been mistaken in assuming that names and addresses in the metal boxes were associated with Oswald's nearby FPCC literature?  

I mean, Walthers sees names and addresses in Ruth's belongings which he mistakenly thinks are Oswald's papers--how would he know that names look like "Cuban sympathizers"? How would you know if you saw some names and addresses, that they were "Cuban sympathizers"? Think about it. 

This mobbing of Ruth Paine on this kind of insubstantial basis is just witchhunt logic. Ron, do you ever consider that you might be mistaken? 

You've still not really read the thread though have you?  A DPD Officer and a Dallas County Deputy Sheriff  noted the files and their contents in their reports.  Michael told one of them this was the type of stuff Oswald received from Castro supporters.  But they were his and Ruth's files.

Edited by Ron Bulman
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13 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

You've still not really read the thread though have you?  A DPD Officer and a Dallas County Deputy Sheriff  noted the files and their contents in their reports.  Michael told one of them this was the type of stuff Oswald received from Castro supporters.  But they were his and Ruth's files.

It is clear DPD and Walthers from the sheriffs dept picked up some of both Oswald and Paine belongings in their search warrant to take Oswald's belongings. It is clear from the police report you cite that there were ca. 7 metal boxes taken, that number also mentioned by Walthers, however it is also clear later that only 3 metal boxes were identified by Dallas police as being Ruth Paine's and returned to her. That means some of the metal boxes which police took thinking they were Oswald's, were Oswald's. Walthers under oath in his WC testimony that although they took ca. 7 metal boxes, he only personally looked into one of them, saw a letterhead or letter which was opened, which Michael Paine standing nearby said was correspondence Oswald had with USSR. Walthers then stuffed it back in the metal box and took it along with the other metal boxes which he did not look into.

If I understand you correctly, you suppose Michael Paine lied about that, that Michael falsely said a box of Paine property was really Oswald's so that DPD would take it thinking it was Oswald's. You have no evidence for that. You speculate it, that Michael Paine was lying, then you and others build up from that, viciously and unwarrantedly attacking and accusing Ruth and Michael Paine of many things starting from that baseless supposition. 

I think the box of items Michael Paine said was Oswald's, and which DPD took as Oswald's, and which nobody ever said was other than Oswald's, most likely was Oswald's. 

You seem to see a problem in how metal boxes containing Oswald papers could have gotten from New Orleans to Ruth Paine's garage, as an argument in support of none of them belonging to Oswald. I cannot tell for sure, but it seems you think all of Lee and Marina's belongings came from New Orleans in two duffel bags inconsistent with carrying metal boxes inside duffel bags. Therefore you see that as an argument that all of the metal boxes must really belong to the Paines, no matter what Michael Paine or DPD or FBI thought or said. I hope I have that right (concerning your argument). 

According to Ruth Paine's testimony, Lee and Marina's belongings were loaded in New Orleans onto Ruth's station wagon and driven to Irving, and there everything was unloaded by Ruth and Marina--this would include items easily able to be carried by the two women such as small metal boxes--with Ruth and Marina leaving only two large duffel bags unmoved from the staton wagon which Ruth and Marina did not unload because they were too heavy, but waited for Michael to arrive and unload those which he did. Therefore I do not see the mystery that you do in how small metal boxes of Oswald's papers and documents could possibly have been conveyed from New Orleans to Irving.  

I believe I did err in assuming all the metal boxes with their contents taken by DPD belonged to Ruth Paine. The documentary record shows that was not the case, in which only 3 metal boxes belonged to Ruth Paine, the other metal boxes being Lee and Marina's.

I don't think you or anyone else has shown evidence that contents of the Oswald metal boxes were disappeared or missing by Dallas police or FBI, or from the 3 of Ruth Paine's which eventually were returned to her either. I am not opposed to the idea of the police losing evidence or worse in certain cases, but I do not see where anyone has shown evidence that happened with these metal boxes. 

In the end this looks like you think Michael Paine lied in saying a letter to the USSR and other contents of one metal box belonged to Oswald, and your belief that Michael Paine lied is established on the basis of itself. Things that are just the least bit ambiguous, or subject to more than one interpretation, get taken in ways that most incriminate the designated target, in this case the Paines, as in a medieval witchhunt.

Contents of Ruth Paine's three metal boxes in DPD custody as reviewed and reported by FBI: https://www.maryferrell.org/archive/docs/056/56999/images/img_56999_77_300.png 

Ruth Paine's description of unloading her station wagon of everything except for two duffel bags left for Michael to unload later because too heavy for her and Marina. https://maryferrell.org/archive/docs/057/57770/images/img_57770_145_300.png

Just one extended itemization of Lee and Marina correspondence with friends and relatives in the Soviet Union, maps and other documents from the Soviet Union, taken from the Ruth Paine garage: https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=95758&search=property_list+oswald#relPageId=24&tab=page (there are pages before and after this one)

From Buddy Walthers WC testimony:

Mr. Liebeler: What was in these file cabinets?

Mr. Walthers: We didn't go through them at the scene. I do remember a letterhead--I can't describe it--I know we opened one of them and we seen what it was, that it was a lot of personal letters and stuff and a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, 'That's from the people he writes to in Russia'; he was talking about this letterhead that we had pulled out and so I just pushed it all back down and shut it and took the whole works.

Edited by Greg Doudna
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History Matters Archive - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XIX, pg (history-matters.com)

"Also found was a set of metal file cabinets containing records that appeared to be names and activities of Cuban sympathizers.  All of this evidence was confiscated and turned over to Captian Fritz of the Dallas Police Department and the Secret Service officers at the city hall."  Walthers report 11/23/63. 

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On 7/18/2017 at 9:53 PM, Ron Bulman said:

I'd like to clarify something I kind of alluded to in an earlier post that has developed further in thought.  Michael Paine was pointing his finger at Oswald from the get-go and a "files" comment supports this.  He showed up unannounced during the search of the house on the 22nd.  Deputy Walthers remembered talking to him "over the ironing board". "How does the guy think, what is he, what does he do?"  He said, "He's a Communist.  He is very communistic minded.  He believes in it."  And he says, "He used to try to convince me it was a good thing," and he says, "I don't believe in it".  Shortly after this a letter was pulled out of one of the six or seven small metal file cabinets that had a letterhead on it.  "and a letterhead that this Paine fellow had told us about, and he said, "That's from the people he writes to in Russia"  I.E., those are his files, not ours?  I know, speculations, jumping to conclusions.  Illogical?

Maybe we need to bump this post too for Greg.  Paine telling Walthers over the ironing board "He's a Communist".  If that's not Michael implicating Lee I don't know what is.

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46 minutes ago, Ron Bulman said:

History Matters Archive - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XIX, pg (history-matters.com)

"Also found was a set of metal file cabinets containing records that appeared to be names and activities of Cuban sympathizers.  All of this evidence was confiscated and turned over to Captian Fritz of the Dallas Police Department and the Secret Service officers at the city hall."  Walthers report 11/23/63. 

There were ca. 7 metal boxes. 3 were Ruth Paine's, later returned to her. Ca. 4 were Oswald's. Oswald did FPCC activity in New Orleans and in Dallas, whereas Ruth Paine had no known involvement in any pro-Cuban or anti-Cuban activity. None of Ruth Paine's metal boxes had that kind of material in them according to every, without exception, law enforcement officer who looked at the contents and reported on the contents of Ruth Paine's files. On the other hand DPD records show extensive material among Oswald's belongings related to his FPCC activity, activity which is disputed by no one.

Therefore could you speak to the point: why are you denying whatever Walthers saw was Oswald material in Oswald metal boxes, in agreement with all known records of the property seized from the Paine garage? On what grounds are you trying to pin this on Ruth Paine, in opposition to all DPD and FBI records? Please give a straight answer to this question before raising anything new. 

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4 minutes ago, Greg Doudna said:

There were ca. 7 metal boxes. 3 were Ruth Paine's, later returned to her. Ca. 4 were Oswald's. Oswald did FPCC activity in New Orleans and in Dallas, whereas Ruth Paine had no known involvement in any pro-Cuban or anti-Cuban activity. None of Ruth Paine's metal boxes had that kind of material in them according to every, without exception, law enforcement officer who looked at the contents and reported on the contents of Ruth Paine's files. On the other hand DPD records show extensive material among Oswald's belongings related to his FPCC activity, activity which is disputed by no one.

Therefore could you speak to the point: why are you denying whatever Walthers saw was Oswald material in Oswald metal boxes, in agreement with all known records of the property seized from the Paine garage? On what grounds are you trying to pin this on Ruth Paine, in opposition to all DPD and FBI records? Please give a straight answer to this question before raising anything new. 

3 were Ruth's, 4 were Oswald's where do you get this stuff Greg?  Any documentation?  How did Oswald tote his four around from Fort Worth to Dallas to New Orleans to Dallas.  He told Ruth he hitch hiked to Dallas per her.  A bit of luggage for a hitch hiker.

 

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I think you're trolling now, I hope not all along, since I gave this documentation just two posts of mine above, plus testimony on how Lee and Marina property was conveyed including any papers in metal boxes, nothing to do with hitchhiking. On seven metal boxes total taken, thought to be Oswald's, report of J. L. Oxford: "about 7 metal boxes which contained pamphlets and literature from abroad", http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/oxford1.htm. For 3 of those metal boxes turning out to be Ruth Paine's taken by mistake, leaving the remaining 4 as Oswald's, below. You can have any last words and I'll close here. 

 img_56999_77_300.png      

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