Ruth - a typewriter - 15 days

[Chris Newton]

Paul,

Let us review what Ruth actually said.

Everything in brackets [CN] is my commentary or corrections.

Part 1 Warren Commission Hearings, Volume III, page 15

Mr. Jenner. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on Sunday morning the 10th of November.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner.  And there is a number of things in that that you thought were untrue.

Mrs. Paine. Several things I knew to be untrue.

Mr. Jenner. That you knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that alarmed you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. Jenner. What were they?

Mrs. Paine. To me this - well, I read it and decided to make a copy.

[The answer, above, is unresponsive to the question - CN]

Mr. Jenner. Would you like the document back before you [to] help you?

Mrs. Paine. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI Agent coming again or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.

[What did keep her from picking up the phone and calling Hosty at the number he left? This is never explained. I also think “meantime” is a curious word to use, it usually denotes an interval, between finding the note and telling the FBI? or something else? - CN]

Mr. Jenner. But you had the instinct to report this to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you made a copy of the document?

Mrs. Paine. And I made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.

[The Paine copy of Oswald’s draft was given to FBI Agent Odum on 11/23/63 but was never entered as a WC exhibit, “they have that too” is a reference to the FBI having that document. She is suggesting that she made her copy of the Oswald draft while Oswald was in the shower. Elsewhere she testifies that she read the draft before any one else in the house had woken up. There is no mention of the english dictionary also “found” by Ruth in the same location but apparently both dictionary and draft sat unnoticed by either Marina or Lee for the rest of the day. Why not ask Lee, if Ruth was so averse to subterfuge, “Is this paper yours?”.]

 

to be continued...

 

[Paul Trejo]

bump

Edited August 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, David Josephs said:

The truth of your inabilities does not require opinion Paul... all that's needed is for you to put keyboard to dialog box... and hit "Submit" when you're done.

Why do you insist on remaining so incredibly underwhelming, fact-less and perpetually annoying in your presentation here when you could take a minute, research what you're going to post and find out before you do it how wrong you are... save a little face once in a while....

Or you could just keep pi$$ing into the wind...  

My bet's on the wind.

 

David,

The crudity and filth of your comments towards me has earned me the moral right to set your Forum account to IGNORE from now on.

You never could debate well enough, anyway.

Good riddance,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Mark Knight said:

Paul,

Your statement isn't completely true. My dad worked for both the US Post Office and the USPS. NOT ALL BOXES WERE "RUN" LATE IN THE EVENING. Some were picked up earlier in the day. You think the clerks in the back of the post offices worked ONLY in the early morning and late evenings? There was mail to run through the cancelling machine throughout the day, at various times. 

But unless you know what box the letter was deposited in, and what time of the day the local PO ran the box, it's simply speculation. You cannot say when the mail was picked up from the box without knowing the box it was deposited in.

Of course, I'm used to you passing off your speculation as fact. And while I'm used to it, I'm still not impressed by it.

Mark,

It remains possible, plausible and even probable that Lee Harvey Oswald deposited his "Soviet Embassy Letter" in a public mailbox early in the morning in Irving Texas, which was then picked up by a mail truck later that day, and deposited it to a local Post Office by 5pm.

This matches the postmark on the envelope today -- which shows the date of "November 12, 1963" (although the "1" is a bit faint), 5pm, and the label, "Irving, Texas" as the Post Office location.

Although this isn't final, empirical proof -- it remains possible, plausible and even probable.   Would you agree that far?

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Paul,

Let us review what Ruth actually said.

Everything in brackets [CN] is my commentary or corrections.

Part 1 Warren Commission Hearings, Volume III, page 15

Mr. Jenner. Now I would like to ask you a few questions about your reaction to that. You had read that in the quiet of your living room on Sunday morning the 10th of November.

Mrs. Paine. That is correct.

Mr. Jenner.  And there is a number of things in that that you thought were untrue.

Mrs. Paine. Several things I knew to be untrue.

Mr. Jenner. That you knew to be untrue. Were there things in there that alarmed you?

Mrs. Paine. Yes; I would say so.

Mr. Jenner. What were they?

Mrs. Paine. To me this - well, I read it and decided to make a copy.

[The answer, above, is unresponsive to the question - CN]

Mr. Jenner. Would you like the document back before you [to] help you?

Mrs. Paine. No, no. I was just trying to think what to say first. And that I should have such a copy to give to an FBI Agent coming again or to call. I was undecided what to do. Meantime I made a copy.

[What did keep her from picking up the phone and calling Hosty at the number he left? This is never explained. I also think “meantime” is a curious word to use, it usually denotes an interval, between finding the note and telling the FBI? or something else? - CN]

Mr. Jenner. But you had the instinct to report this to the FBI?

Mrs. Paine. Yes.

Mr. Jenner. And you made a copy of the document?

Mrs. Paine. And I made a copy of the document which should be among your papers, because they have that too. And after having made it, while the shower was running, I am not used to subterfuge in any way, but then I put it back where it had been and it lay the rest of Sunday on my desk top, and of course I observed this too.

[The Paine copy of Oswald’s draft was given to FBI Agent Odum on 11/23/63 but was never entered as a WC exhibit, “they have that too” is a reference to the FBI having that document. She is suggesting that she made her copy of the Oswald draft while Oswald was in the shower. Elsewhere she testifies that she read the draft before any one else in the house had woken up. There is no mention of the english dictionary also “found” by Ruth in the same location but apparently both dictionary and draft sat unnoticed by either Marina or Lee for the rest of the day. Why not ask Lee, if Ruth was so averse to subterfuge, “Is this paper yours?”.]

to be continued...

Chris,

I'm pleased to respond to this snippet, and to respond to some of your questions.  When Jenner asked Ruth what parts of the "Soviet Embassy Letter" alarmed her, she replied that she decided to make a copy of it.  You wrote:

[The answer, above, is unresponsive to the question - CN]

My response is that Ruth Paine is just getting started, so just give her some time.  Then you wrote: 

[What did keep her from picking up the phone and calling Hosty at the number he left?  This is never explained...]

Actually, the WC asked this same question, and Ruth's reply was roughly that -- aside from being Veterans Day holiday  -- she really and truly believed that FBI agent James Hosty would arrive at her doorstep unannounced any day, just as he had on November 1st and 5th.  She planned to give the letter to Hosty at that time.    Then you wrote:

 [Why not ask Lee, if Ruth was so averse to subterfuge, “Is this paper yours?”.]

Ruth Paine testified that she worried for hours about confronting Lee Harvey Oswald with this letter, but since the FBI was involved not only at her doorstep, but also in the content of this letter, she decided to let the FBI handle it.

Ruth testified, IIRC, that on the night of November 11th, she stayed up a little later that night, and so did Lee Harvey Oswald, and they watched TV together, alone.  Ruth almost said something at that point -- but decided against it and went to bed.

If you continue in posting her WC testimony, all of this will become crystal clear. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

15 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Chris,

I'm pleased to respond to this snippet, and to respond to some of your questions.  When Jenner asked Ruth what parts of the "Soviet Embassy Letter" alarmed her, she replied that she decided to make a copy of it.  You wrote:

[The answer, above, is unresponsive to the question - CN]

My response is that Ruth Paine is just getting started, so just give her some time.  Then you wrote: 

[What did keep her from picking up the phone and calling Hosty at the number he left?  This is never explained...]

Actually, the WC asked this same question, and Ruth's reply, IIRC, was that -- aside from being Veterans Day holiday, she really and truly believed that FBI agent James Hosty would arrive at her doorstep unannounced any day -- just as he had on November 1st and 5th.  She planned to give the letter to Hosty at that time.    Then you wrote:

 [Why not ask Lee, if Ruth was so averse to subterfuge, “Is this paper yours?”.]

Ruth Paine testified that she worried for hours about confronting Lee with this letter, but since the FBI was involved not only at her doorstep, but also in the content of this letter, she decided to let the FBI handle it.

Ruth testfied, IIRC, that on the night of November 11, 1963, she stayed up a little later that night, and so did Lee Harvey Oswald, and they watched TV together, alone.  Ruth almost said something at the point -- but decided against it.

If you continue in posting her WC testimony, all of this will become crystal clear. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

 

9 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

First off... I'm not interested in creating a narrative or fictional account whereby I tell you what Hosty or Oswald or either of the Paines were "thinking" or what their "intentions" were unless that bit of speculation is stated in evidence by their own testimony - about what they, themselves, were thinking. Everything else is hearsay, a legal term for "cow manure".

Your failure is your constant departure from reality, which is well represented by your post above. Everything you wrote above that was preceded by a number is a stinky steaming Texas sized cow patty.

It was Ruth's testimony wherein she describes the Nov. 1st meeting as an informal opening for confidence. I'm not quoting from Hosty's testimony.

Somewhere there is probably a forum for Ruth Paine fan fiction where you could practice "self-insert", if not I suggest creating it and peddling your wares there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fan_fiction

 

I think that about covers it..

[Chris Newton]

…continued.

Mr. Jenner. That is that Lee didn’t put it away, just left it out in the room?

Mrs. Paine. That he didn’t put it away or didn’t seem to care or notice or didn’t recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed that it was untrue that the FBI came -

[All of Mrs. Paine’s speculation about why the draft was left on top of the little desk secretary, (which stood along the north wall of her living room between her leather laze-boy and the door to the back hallway), is highly unlikely. Ruth testifies elsewhere that Oswald was so protective of both the draft and the original when he was typing it that his act of shielding the draft from view was what raised her initial curiosity and suspicions about the document.]

[It is also never explained how Ruth associates the document she found with the document that was mailed. She admits that she did not see the typed document nor the draft when Oswald was using her typewriter in the kitchen.]

Mr. Jenner. Why did you observe that that was untrue?

Mrs. Paine. Well, the FBI came and asked me, they said -

Mr. Jenner. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?

[double whammy - unresponsive answer and then a redirect]

Mrs. Paine. They had been twice.

Mr. Jenner. November 1[st] and ——

Mrs. Paine. November 1[st] and they told me the 5 [th]. I made no record of it what[so]ever.

[strange because she recorded everything else on her calendar including the fact that Lee bought a rifle]

…to be continued.

[Paul Trejo]

Here's some vital data from Ruth Paine.  If you want to see the full testimony, it's on page 16 of Volume III of the WC volumes:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/html/WC_Vol3_0012b.htm

It describes Ruth's shock at reading Lee Harvey Oswald's "Soviet Embassy Letter."   Here are her exact words:

Mrs. PAINE - Why is Lee Oswald writing this? What kind of man? Here is a false statement that she was invited to defect, false statement that the FBI is no longer interested, false statement that he was present, "they visited I and my wife." ...He was not present!  False statement that "I and my wife protested vigorously." 

Further, there was nothing that FBI agent James Hosty said either in his November 1st or November 5th visits to Ruth Paine's in 1963 that suggested that any agency of the USA was seeking to induce Marina Oswald to defect to the USA, said Ruth.

Further, Lee told the USSR Embassy that "the FBI is no longer interested" in him.  But Ruth had just endured two visits by the FBI in her own home -- and James Hosty was not asking about Marina Oswald -- but about Lee Harvey Oswald.   It was obvious that the FBI was interested in Lee, because they came to her door.  So why did Lee lie about it in this letter?   

Ruth was outraged that Lee Harvey Oswald would tell these lies on her own typewriter.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 4, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Chris Newton]

50 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

If you continue in posting her WC testimony, all of this will become crystal clear. 

Ha Ha Ha Ha. I've read probably a thousand depositions and court transcripts and no one with the same experience would ever describe any of her testimonies as "crystal clear".

Thanks for the comedy.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Chris Newton

[Paul Trejo]

15 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

…continued.

Mr. Jenner. That is that Lee didn’t put it away, just left it out in the room?

Mrs. Paine. That he didn’t put it away or didn’t seem to care or notice or didn’t recall that he had a rough draft lying around. I observed it was untrue that the FBI was no longer interested in him. I observed that it was untrue that the FBI came -

[All of Mrs. Paine’s speculation about why the draft was left on top of the little desk secretary, (which stood along the north wall of her living room between her leather laze-boy and the door to the back hallway), is highly unlikely. Ruth testifies elsewhere that Oswald was so protective of both the draft and the original when he was typing it that his act of shielding the draft from view was what raised her initial curiosity and suspicions about the document.]

[It is also never explained how Ruth associates the document she found with the document that was mailed. She admits that she did not see the typed document nor the draft when Oswald was using her typewriter in the kitchen.]

Mr. Jenner. Why did you observe that that was untrue?

Mrs. Paine. Well, the FBI came and asked me, they said -

Mr. Jenner. Had the FBI been making inquiries of you prior to that time?

[double whammy - unresponsive answer and then a redirect]

Mrs. Paine. They had been twice.

Mr. Jenner. November 1[st] and ——

Mrs. Paine. November 1[st] and they told me the 5 [th]. I made no record of it what[so]ever.

[strange because she recorded everything else on her calendar including the fact that Lee bought a rifle]

…to be continued.

Chris,

IMHO, Lee Harvey Oswald was trying to tease Ruth Paine with this "Soviet Embassy Letter," just as he was trying to tease the FBI.  Lee evidently tempted Ruth into reading it.  He left it out on her desk for a day and a night.  He tried to shield it from her sight when she walked by.  That's temptation, IMHO.

Anyway, you wrote:

[It is also never explained how Ruth associates the document she found with the document that was mailed. She admits that she did not see the typed document nor the draft when Oswald was using her typewriter in the kitchen.]

Logically, after the JFK assassination, the US Government showed Ruth Paine the typed copy of Oswald's "Soviet Embassy Letter," and Ruth could then compare it with her handwritten copy.  

Again, Ruth knew that the FBI truly was certainly interested in Lee Harvey Oswald at that time, because they had visited her twice;  on November 1st and 5th, and this letter was dated November 9th.

Ruth said that the FBI had to remind her of the dates of these visits, because she didn't record the dates.  Then you wrote:

[strange because she recorded everything else on her calendar including the fact that Lee bought a rifle]

My reply is that Ruth Paine recorded the fact that Lee bought a rifle only after the JFK assassination.  The dates of Lee Oswald's business were not typically recorded by Ruth Paine.  Her datebook mainly included child care appointments for herself and Marina.  

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Chris Newton]

4 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

Logically, after the JFK assassination, the US Government showed Ruth Paine the typed copy of Oswald's "Soviet Embassy Letter," and Ruth could then compare it with her handwritten copy.  

I'm really not asking you for your opinions about my commentary. I could give a rats __s.

Your statement above is especially egregious though. Ruth claims that the fact that he had lied about all these things that she read about on Sunday morning the 10th of November, 1963 infuriated her. She was angry because he had typed these lies on her typewriter.

Do you get the timeline here?

[Sandy Larsen]

14 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

For one thing, David von Pein also sees that "1".   Also, Sandy Larsen chimed in here that he saw it.

I want to state my position regarding the "1.".

I did see what appeared to be a faded "1." But then I noted that it was printed at a slant. And I stated that if that slant wasn't an optical illusion, the "1" could not be real.

Afterward David J. showed a blowup of the postmark, and he identified a number of occurrences of what appeared to be fainted "1s" (ones). All or most of which were slanted/rotated, and none of which weren't really "1s" (of course ). They were merely "images in the clouds." I found David's observation to be convincing. It explained to my satisfaction why I was seeing a faded, slanted "1" that wasn't real.

Maybe I should have posted my thumbs up to David's demonstration earlier.

 

Edited August 4, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Chris Newton]

57 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I want to state my position regarding the "1.".

Hey Sandy,

 

I have some questions about the envelope as well.

I can't find the reference at the moment but either Carol Hewitt or the La Fontaines had examined either the "original" envelope or the "original" image of the envelope and stated that the "1" was not readily visible on that "original" document (in the archives).

My second question pertains to the provenance of the envelope image (hence my "quotes" above). The FBI allegedly intercepted the letter as part of the HTLINGUAL Operation directed at the Embassy of the USSR in D.C.. I assume they retained images of both the letter and the envelope. The Russian Government subsequent to the assassination turned the original Oswald letter over to the Warren Commission. I don't know if it's explicitly stated if the envelope was returned. Is the extant Warren Commission Exhibit an image from HTLINGUAL or an image of the envelope after it was returned?

Edited August 4, 2017 by Chris Newton

[Sandy Larsen]

2 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Hey Sandy,

 

I have some questions about the envelope as well.

Hi Chris,

I'm not very knowledgeable on this topic and am here trying to learn. Hopefully someone else can answer your questions.

 

[James DiEugenio]

The whole embassy letter episode is beginning to smell up a storm.