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Ruth - a typewriter - 15 days


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I'm going to start digging now... but,

Was this letter ever actually delivered?  It does not appear to have any routing stamps, initials, or anything that would suggest anyone at the addressee received it... 

How did it come to be an exhibit... the Soviet Embassy sent it to the WC?

The writing in Russian at the top and the number at the top right...  any clues there?

??

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On 8/3/2017 at 11:47 PM, Chris Newton said:

...Ruth claims that the fact that he had lied about all these things that she read about on Sunday morning the 10th of November, 1963 infuriated her. She was angry because he had typed these lies on her typewriter.

Do you get the timeline here?

Chris,

 Are you saying that Ruth was angry because Lee Harvey Oswald had typed the words in his handwritten letter on her typewriter -- but she didn't actually see the typed letter, so how could she know what was on it?

If so, then that's a weak argument, frankly.   Obviously, Ruth assumed that Lee Oswald spent all morning trying to type out what he had written in longhand in his note.   

No, she didn't actually see him typing each word -- but she saw him looking at his page, then looking at the typewriter, then typing some letters, then looking at his page, then looking at the typewriter....etc...etc.

So -- Lee might have been typing A Christmas Carol for all Ruth knew -- but since Ruth is a logical person, she assumed as most logical people would assume, that Lee was typing out his handwritten letter.  

Lee spent HOURS doing this.   He started on November 9, and he finished it on November 10th.  Logically, he was typing out his letter.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
morning
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36 minutes ago, David Josephs said:

I'm going to start digging now... but,

Was this letter ever actually delivered?  It does not appear to have any routing stamps, initials, or anything that would suggest anyone at the addressee received it... 

How did it come to be an exhibit... the Soviet Embassy sent it to the WC?

The writing in Russian at the top and the number at the top right...  any clues there?

??

Mystery solved...  now... do we have anything else that was typed on that typewriter to compare?

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/711299/Russians-wary-of-63-Oswald-letter.html   

"One gets the definite impression that the letter was concocted by those who, judging from everything, are involved in the president's assassination," Dobrynin wrote. "It is possible that Oswald himself wrote the letter as it was dictated to him, in return for some promises, and then, as we know, he was simply bumped off after his usefulness had ended."

The Dobrynin memo was contained in more than 80 pages of long-secret Soviet documents that Russian President Boris Yeltsin gave to President Clinton in June when the two were in Germany. The documents offer details about what top-level Soviet officials were thinking and talking about when Kennedy was killed Nov. 22, 1963, in Dallas.

"They were convinced that there had been this massive plot to kill Kennedy. What they didn't know was who was a part of the conspiracy," said Timothy Naftali, director of the presidential recordings project at the Miller Center of Public Affairs, a think tank and historical research institute at the University of Virginia.

"They thought they had received a false letter. They thought it was all part of an orchestrated affair to make it look like the Soviet Union was behind the gun."

Following the assassination, the Soviets gave U.S. officials the Oswald letter as well as other information they had gathered during his stay in the Soviet Union.

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Roughly translated from this ducument using my iPad voice text function.

Yeltsin/Clinton cashe ducument regarding LHO Russian Consulate letter.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/other/yeltsin/html/Yeltsin_0028a.htm

 

Do we have the source of our wire-tap?

Do we have the reason why a forged letter would be generated?

-------------

At 16 hours 00 minutes, the U.S. Telegraph agency reported that police in Dallas, TX, had arrested a U.S. National Lee H. Oswald, 24 years old, Chairman of the local branch of the FPCC, on suspicion that he had assassinated Kennedy.

It is also reported that Oswald was in the USSR some time ago and is married to a Russian woman.

It was ascertained by checking at the consulate section of the embassy that Oswald really did spend several years in Minsk,  where he married Soviet citizens Marina P. (born 1941). In June 1962, they returned to the US. In March 1963 Marina applied to return with her daughter to the USSR for permanent residency. The KU of the Ministry of Foreign Affair of the USSR (October 7, 1963) reported that her application was rejected.

The counselor section of the embassy has the correspondence between Marina and Oswald regarding her return to Russia.The last letter from Lee Oswald was dated November 9 (the text was transmitted on the line of nearby neighbors).

 

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3 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

The counselor section of the embassy has the correspondence between Marina and Oswald regarding her return to Russia.The last letter from Lee Oswald was dated November 9 (the text was transmitted on the line of nearby neighbors).

huh?  "on the line" is followed by (sic).  "text was transmitted"   very strange.

 

Further into those pages:  I thought Oswald immediately mentioned being ex-marine radar operator with potential sensitive info to offer....  instead, they claim he was a "student in his final year at an electrical trade school"...  where would they get that info?

"Lee Harvey Oswald (b. 1939), a student in his final year at an electrical trade school, came

to the USSR on October 15 this year. Upon arriving in Moscow, he applied for Soviet

citizenship. Because no decision had been reached on Oswald’s request by the time his visa

expired and he was to leave the USSR Oswald tried to commit suicide by slitting a vein. After

his recuperation he has kept insisting that he be given Soviet citizenship, and he refuses to leave

the USSR. On October 3 1 he visited the U.S. Embassy in Moscow and said he renounced his

American citizenship. "

Kennedy%20B%20Govt%20letter%20LHO%20to%2

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3 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

Lee spent HOURS doing this.   He started on November 9, and he finished it on November 10th.  Logically, he was typing out his letter.

I'm astounded at how much information you simply make up.

The testimony of Ruth Paine is that he borrowed her typewriter early Saturday morning, shortly after breakfast and that he was done by mid morning that same day when both families (less Michael) left for the local Drivers License Test Facility. The facility was closed so they all went shopping instead.

 

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1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

I'm astounded at how much information you simply make up.

The testimony of Ruth Paine is that he borrowed her typewriter early Saturday morning, shortly after breakfast and that he was done by mid morning that same day when both families (less Michael) left for the local Drivers License Test Facility. The facility was closed so they all went shopping instead.

Chris,

I made nothing up, since the letter is dated November 9th.   Therefore, I repeat -- Oswald started his letter on November 9th, and completed it on November 10th.   He left it on Ruth Paine's desk until the morning of November 11th.   

It was basically the work of an entire Veterans Day holiday, if we include his tempting of Ruth Paine to read it.

I further repeat -- the substance of Oswald's "Soviet Embassy Letter" was to ping the FBI for James Hosty's visits on November 1st and November 5th.   This was one complete event.

It seems to me, therefore, that Lee Harvey Oswald planned that Ruth Paine would hand his letter over to FBI agent James Hosty, in addition to FBI HQ intercepting the letter in Washington, DC.  Oswald enjoyed playing cat and mouse.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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23 minutes ago, Paul Trejo said:

I made nothing up, since the letter is dated November 9th.   Therefore, I repeat -- Oswald started his letter on November 9th, and completed it on November 10th.   He left it on Ruth Paine's desk until the morning of November 11th.   

Oh the irony. "I made nothing up"  while making stuff up.

 

I've participated on this forum since it's  inception and no matter how bad the posts, I've never put anyone on "ignore". Congratulations for making the grade.

Your "fake news" cycle has finally broke me and I'm no longer going to read or respond your bullsh(i)t.

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4 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Oh the irony. "I made nothing up"  while making stuff up.

I've participated on this forum since it's  inception and no matter how bad the posts, I've never put anyone on "ignore". Congratulations for making the grade.

Your "fake news" cycle has finally broke me and I'm no longer going to read or respond your bullsh(i)t.

Chris,

You have often said before that you'd never write to me again.  And yet this morning -- a new conversation.  I'll just bide my time. 

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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9 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

I'm astounded at how much information you simply make up.

The testimony of Ruth Paine is that he borrowed her typewriter early Saturday morning, shortly after breakfast and that he was done by mid morning that same day when both families (less Michael) left for the local Drivers License Test Facility. The facility was closed so they all went shopping instead.

 

Excellent detail Chris.  Thanks.  Her testimony is long, deep.  

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4 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:

Excellent detail Chris.  Thanks.  Her testimony is long, deep.  

Thanks Ron. I've got more of her testimony coming up.

There was part of her testimony that confused me for years. In that portion,  Mr. Jenner mentions there is no sidewalk in front of the Paine home and Ruth corrects him and said yes there is a sidewalk. A Secret Service Agent, John Joe Howlett,  then measures off the distance from the front door to the street. Even WC Exhibit #430 has a sidewalk (despite it's other flaws), as do any photos taken of the house, ever.

How then does Mr. Jenner not see the sidewalk?

The deposition started at 7 p.m. it was getting dark, and then it got dark.

And then I realized that there is, you know.... a bunch of other testimony, ...afterward in this same deposition about what could be seen outside from different places inside and visa versa...

Most of the deposition at the Paine residence could be read in the style of a farce, acted out by SNL. It's hilarious.

 

My favorite quote from that session:

Mr Jenner.        That light switch then John Joe! Let us locate it!

Agent Howlett.  It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor.

 

Edited by Chris Newton
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continued…

Mr. Jenner.  But it was a few days later?

Mrs Paine. Yes: a few days later. And the first visit I understood to be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this with the FBI. This is a far cry from being told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words and false both.

[This is a curious statement, it touches on subjects that Ruth had no knowledge of, nor could she have knowledge of, and reeks of witness tampering and collusion between herself and the FBI which seems to have occurred over a significant period after the assassination]

[We also know that all mail between the US and the USSR was opened, translated and examined by the CIA so if there had been an attempt to blackmail Marina for some purpose I assume Hosty would be notified]

[In later years, Hosty would claim that Marina was of great interest to him as a potential SOBIR candidate. SOBIR was a Soviet program to install sleeper agents within the US and according to Hosty, Marina fit the profile to a “T”.]

[The other issue is the deflection of the purpose of the visit. Ruth is trying to state, in this passage, that Marina was the focus and purpose of the first visit despite the fact that for the first 15 minutes, Marina was not part of the conversation at all and no effort was made to include her. Ruth expressed that she and Hosty were both “surprised” when Marina finally came out of her bedroom to join them. As previously noted in this thread, Ruth claims they made smalltalk but Hosty will claim otherwise, that he was, in fact, questioning Ruth about Oswald]

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestions by the FBI or anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?

Mrs. Paine. No, absolutely not.

Mr. Jenner. Or anything else of similar import?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of similar import.

Mr Jenner. I limited it to the FBI. Any Agency of the Government of the Unit States?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of the sort.

[Curious again. What other US Govt. Agency could offer Marina an opportunity to defect in the presence of Ruth Paine?]

to be continued…

Edited by Chris Newton
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On 8/5/2017 at 3:25 PM, Chris Newton said:

continued…

Mr. Jenner.  But it was a few days later?

Mrs Paine. Yes: a few days later. And the first visit I understood to be a visit to convey to Marina that if any blackmail pressure was being put upon her, because of relatives back home, that she was invited, if she wished, to talk about this with the FBI. This is a far cry from being told she could defect from the Soviet Union, very strong words and false both.

[This is a curious statement, it touches on subjects that Ruth had no knowledge of, nor could she have knowledge of, and reeks of witness tampering and collusion between herself and the FBI which seems to have occurred over a significant period after the assassination]

[We also know that all mail between the US and the USSR was opened, translated and examined by the CIA so if there had been an attempt to blackmail Marina for some purpose I assume Hosty would be notified]

[In later years, Hosty would claim that Marina was of great interest to him as a potential SOBIR candidate. SOBIR was a Soviet program to install sleeper agents within the US and according to Hosty, Marina fit the profile to a “T”.]

[The other issue is the deflection of the purpose of the visit. Ruth is trying to state, in this passage, that Marina was the focus and purpose of the first visit despite the fact that for the first 15 minutes, Marina was not part of the conversation at all and no effort was made to include her. Ruth expressed that she and Hosty were both “surprised” when Marina finally came out of her bedroom to join them. As previously noted in this thread, Ruth claims they made smalltalk but Hosty will claim otherwise, that he was, in fact, questioning Ruth about Oswald]

Mr. Jenner. Did you ever hear anything at all insofar as the FBI is concerned reported to you by Marina or Lee Harvey Oswald during all of your acquaintance with either of them of any suggestions by the FBI or anybody else that Marina defect in that context to the United States?

Mrs. Paine. No, absolutely not.

Mr. Jenner. Or anything else of similar import?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of similar import.

Mr Jenner. I limited it to the FBI. Any Agency of the Government of the Unit States?

Mrs. Paine. Nothing of the sort.

[Curious again. What other US Govt. Agency could offer Marina an opportunity to defect in the presence of Ruth Paine?]

to be continued…

Chris,

Responding by the numbers:

1.  You're mistaken that Ruth Paine could have no knowledge of the possible blackmailing of Marina by relatives back in the USSR -- simply because Marina Oswald spoke no English, and so FBI agent James Hosty had to tell Ruth Paine first, before Marina Oswald could understand his sentence.

1.1. Therefore, Ruth Paine had knowledge of James' Hosty's topic a few seconds before Marina Oswald did.

1.2. Therefore, there is no real question of "witness tampering" here at all, or of Ruth Paine hearing about this only after the JFK assassination.

2.  Although all mail between the US and the USSR was always intercepted by the CIA, it is a mistake to imagine that James Hosty was even serious about his question to Marina Oswald, IMHO.

2.1.  On the contrary, as Ruth Paine also testified, the first questions from FBI agent Hosty were to Ruth Paine, and not to Marina Oswald, and they were about Lee Harvey Oswald -- did he live there?  No.  Where did he live?  I don't know but it's somewhere in Dallas.  Where does he work?  He'll be here this weekend, please drop by and ask him yourself.

2.2.  I notice in your last statement, Chris, that you yourself admit that Marina was not the real purpose of Hosty's first visit.   So, you might come around to agree that the entire question about USSR blackmail was nothing but a "ruse" for Hosty to question Ruth Paine about Lee Harvey Oswald.

3.  Although Hosty did write in his book, Assignment Oswald (1996) that he suspected Marina Oswald to be a "sleeper agent" for the USSR, the Warren Commission and the FBI completely rejected that nonsense.

3.1.  In my reading, Hosty invented that nonsense to deflect from his own role in Ex-General Walker's plot to kill JFK.  Hosty's role was to conceal that Walker and Surrey were behind the WANTED FOR TREASON: JFK poster that circulated around Dallas since the previous October.  

3.2.  Hosty told the Secret Service PRS that he had no idea who published that -- and that there was nobody in Dallas who was dangerous to JFK.   The Secret Service PRS bought it.
 
Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited by Paul Trejo
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