Deposition of Marita Lorenz in Hunt v. Weberman (1978)

[Michael Clark]

I think that a cold-blooded killer, sitting around my apartment, having a chat with police, after cold-blooded killer showed-up to kill me, and forced my 15 year-old daughter to get a gun.... might have already have have had its affect on my testimony. 

 

Edited August 10, 2017 by Michael Clark
Unwarranted observation

[Douglas Caddy]

Here is another first-hand account from retired NYPD Detective James Rothstein:

In the late 1970’s, arrangements were made by xxxxxx for Detective Rothstein to interview Manny Berson in Brooklyn, New York, at his residence. Berson was told Rothstein was a reporter from Minnesota researching the situation in Cuba from the Batista era forward. Berson had been the straight man for the “mob” in Havana during the Batista era. Tommy Ryan Eboli, an organized crime leader from the lower west side of New York, ran the day to day criminal operations in Havana. Havana was the center of money laundering operations for the mob, CIA, and the shadow government. Gambling was also very lucrative for the Mob in Havana and a good “front” for the money laundering.

The only other information on Manny Berson was that he had been a New York City Police Officer. The conversation with Berson lasted approximately 3 hours and had been taped. The tape was given to Maurice Nadjari of the Special Prosecutors Office in NYC.

When Castro ousted Batista, the Mafia assumed that the Patriarca crime family of Providence, Rhode Island, and the Giancana crime family from Chicago, Illinois, would take over Havana and all its lucrative operations. The mob’s involvement in getting JFK elected as president of the USA entitled them this perk. Surprise! Surprise! Castro said he would rather go Communist than allow the criminal element to use his children and women for prostitution and drugs. He had thrown out the mob. The Frank Sturgis connection in Havana and his involvement with Castro became very crucial at this point. Sturgis was out. When JFK refused to oust Castro, the mob was pissed. JFK and his brother, Bobby, felt that they did not have to honor this debt and that they were the “almighty.” How naïve and pompous could they be? It would cost them their lives.

Any investigation into the assassination of JFK and/or motives for the assassination cannot be complete or accurate if the actions of certain other people are not investigated. They are: George Joannides, Frank Nelson, Alexander Rourke, Geoffrey Sullivan, Pete Ray, and others. Of particular interest is “Big Al’ Carone, A New York City Police Officer, (bagman in Brooklyn), CIA, Colonel in the Army, and a “Made Man” in the Mafia. Carone was part of a back-up team at the airport in Dallas on the day of the assassination. Carone was a close associate and friend of Bill Casey. Casey attended Carone’s daughter, Dee’s, wedding at the Narragansett Inn on Montauk Highway in Lindenhurst, New York, on Long Island.

In the real world there are certain rules (Rules of Eighth Avenue). If violated, they will cause certain death of the violator. It is not a big conspiracy; it is a fact of life. The Kennedys violated those basic rules numerous times. Ted Kennedy was spared and compromised, but discredited at Chappaquiddick.

[Paul Trejo]

15 hours ago, David Andrews said:

Wait - were LBJ, Cord Meyer, and William Harvey civilians?

My remark was to qualify a possible explanation: Sturgis spoke (if it happened this way) for Morales to give Morales deniability.

Who the hell would give the world to Frank Sturgis?  Only notoriety saved him from a hole in the head.

David,

FIrst, I don't give any weight to the claim that LBJ was behind the JFK assassination.   That's a wild rumor, IMHO.

Secondly, it was only Howard Hunt -- confessed JFK conspirator -- who tried to pin blame on Cord Meyer.   Howard Hunt also tried to pin blame on LBJ -- but in my reading, Howard Hunt was suffering from a bad conscience, and was trying like mad to justify his treasonous confession on his deathbed to his son.  So, these are only scapegoats, IMHO.

Thirdly, William Harvey was in bed with the Mafia.  Even though he was a CIA agent going back to WW2, he was filthy dirty because in his dealing with crime and criminals to get information underground, he himself became corrupted.   That's my reading.

As for Frank Sturgis, he was never a CIA officer -- but he was employed by the CIA part-time, here and there, on a contract basis.  The context was almost always the Mafia, for example, when the CIA employed elements in the Mafia to try to assassinate Fidel Castro.

William Harvey would have been quick to get on board that train.  We cannot be surprised that corrupt ROGUES in the CIA (like Harvey and Morales) would join corrupt mercenaries in the field like Frank Sturgis and Johnny Roselli.

I repeat -- there were a few ROGUES in the CIA that worked for a CIVILIAN plot to kill JFK.  This is well documented by Jeff Caufield (2015) in his identification of elements from the Dallas Radical Right in 1963 in the JFK murder.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

17 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Oh, was Sturgis armed when first confronted in Marita's apartment?

Did Rothstein ask Sturgis if he had planned to harm Marita as she had claimed to Rothstein?

Joe,

In my reading, Sturgis went to Marita's apartment in order to murder her, because she was going to talk about the JFK conspirators.

On Halloween night, 1977, at about 9:30pm, Mathew Rosenthal and Jim Rothstein saved Marita's life by arresting Frank Sturgis who was breaking into Marita's apartment with the intent to kill.   So much for the so-called love affair between Frank Sturgis and Marita Lorenz.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo
clarify

[David Andrews]

There were a few rogues at CIA who worked in a plot to kill JFK.

There were a few rogues in Army Intelligence who worked in a plot to kill JFK.

There were a few rogues in the Mob who worked in a plot to kill JFK.

As Al Pacino might say, "You got a LOTTA ROGUES, FELLA!  We are UP TO OUR @#% IN ROGUES, HERE!"

[Paul Trejo]

2 hours ago, David Andrews said:

There were a few rogues at CIA who worked in a plot to kill JFK.

There were a few rogues in Army Intelligence who worked in a plot to kill JFK.

There were a few rogues in the Mob who worked in a plot to kill JFK.

As Al Pacino might say, "You got a LOTTA ROGUES, FELLA!  We are UP TO OUR @#% IN ROGUES, HERE!"

David,

I agree with you substantially -- and so the key question becomes -- who was their Leader?

In my reading of JFK history, the Leader was clearly Ex-General Edwin Walker, the sworn enemy of JFK and RFK.  

Yes, Ex-General Walker had a lot of followers among ROGUES in high places -- as well as in low places -- but always among the Radical Right.

Willie Somerset and Joseph Milteer are linked with General Walker by Jeff Caufield (2015).

Here is part of a circular from General Walker (writing of himself in the 3rd person) after RFK was shot dead in June, 1968:

"If authority, in the hands of the Attorney General and the Justice Department, had not seen fit to free Oswald and his associates in the attempted assassination of Edwin A. Walker -- there is no reason to doubt that President John F. Kennedy and Senator Robert F. Kennedy would be alive today.  There are bullet holes in a room of this house, my private residence, that testify to this fact."  (Walker, 6/12/1968, "The US Senate and its Senator Kennedy)

This is the place to look for the Leader of all these assorted ROGUES in 1963.

I realize this thread is about Frank Sturgis.  That's why I repeat: IMHO, Frank Sturgis and David Morales were working for Ex-General Edwin Walker through Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming in New Orleans and Miami.  Marita Lorenz got caught up in one sordid episode.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 10, 2017 by Paul Trejo
typos

[Douglas Caddy]

21 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

Thanks for the response D. Caddy.

 

Oh, was Sturgis armed when first confronted in Marita's apartment?

 

Did Rothstein ask Sturgis if he had planned to harm Marita as she had claimed to Rothstein?

 

 

 

 

Joe: I asked Detective Rothstein today the two questions that you posed.

1) Sturgis was not armed when first confronted in Marita's apartment. All he had with him was an attaché case with a change of clothing in it. The labels and anything other identifying tags on the clothing had been removed. So how had he planned  to kill Marita? With whatever means presented themselves in the apartment. This could range from a kitchen knife to a heavy vase. Whatever was available. Strangulation was always a possibility. Sturgis was a stone killer and had killed many persons and knew well how it could be done. Marita, by agreeing to testify to the Select House Committee on Assassinations and by agreeing to submit her files to the Committee, was violating the "Rule of Eighth Avenue" and the penalty for talking about how JFK was assassinated was that she would be killed.

2) No, Rothstein did not ask Sturgis if he had planned to harm Marita. Paul Meskill of The New York Daily News, who had set up the meeting earlier that day between Rothstein and Marita at which she told him of Sturgis's plan, possessed a telephone tape recording in which Sturgis made the threat. Rothstein later listened to the tape himself. Further, Monica, Marita's daughter, had been arrested that afternoon hiding in the bushes outside the apartment house armed with the intent to kill Sturgis when he showed up. Rothstein, a skilled detective, knew how the New York Police Department worked. He knew of the powerful rogue element that was within it. He knew that the only way he could make the arrest of Sturgis without alerting the NYPD first of his plan was to arrest Sturgis in his capacity as an officer and investigator of the New York State Select Commission on Crime. At the time of the Sturgis arrest Rothstein and his partner were assigned to the State Select Commission On Crime. Governor Carey had assigned them over the heads of the NYC Mayor and Police Commissioner. They were totally independent of NYPD but were still NYPD detectives. He knew that when he booked Sturgis at the police station he had to use Sturgis' real name, Frank Fiorini, because few knew of his real name. Otherwise the NYPD brass and the department's rogue element would have been alerted immediately and all hell would have broken out. Remember, when Frank Nelson mysteriously showed up at the station and asked if there was a Frank Sturgis being held here, the desk sergeant denied that there was such a person there but volunteered that a Frank Fiorini was being held. Nelson recognized the name as being Sturgis. This set off the bells and NYPD brass quickly entered the picture. So why did Rothstein take the precautionary measures that he had done in booking Sturgis under his real name? Because there was a powerful rogue element inside NYPD (as there is today) that had sanctioned Sturgis coming to New York City to kill Marita. Her murder was to be a sanctioned one. The truth of JFK's killing had to be suppressed. Rothstein relates what happened subsequently and how NYPD and the judge essentially enabled Sturgis to walk in a cover-up arrangement.

Both Marita and Sturgis were stone killers. Rothstein once asked Marita how many persons she had killed and she replied, "eight were  sanctioned by the government and the rest did not count." He did not asked the number of the rest. Some questions are not asked.

Edited August 11, 2017 by Douglas Caddy

[David Andrews]

2 hours ago, Paul Trejo said:

David,

I agree with you substantially -- and so the key question becomes -- who was their Leader?

In my reading of JFK history, the Leader was clearly Ex-General Edwin Walker, the sworn enemy of JFK and RFK.  

Yes, Ex-General Walker had a lot of followers among ROGUES in high places -- as well as in low places -- but always among the Radical Right.

Willie Somerset and Joseph Milteer are linked with General Walker by Jeff Caufield (2015).

Here is part of a circular from General Walker (writing of himself in the 3rd person) after RFK was shot dead in June, 1968:

"If authority, in the hands of the Attorney General and the Justice Department, had not seen fit to free Oswald and his associates in the attempted assassination of Edwin A. Walker -- there is no reason to doubt that President John F. Kennedy and Senator Robert F. Kennedy would be alive today.  There are bullet holes in a room of this house, my private residence, that testify to this fact."  (Walker, 6/12/1968, "The US Senate and its Senator Kennedy)

This is the place to look for the Leader of all these assorted ROGUES in 1963.

I realize this thread is about Frank Sturgis.  That's why I repeat: IMHO, Frank Sturgis and David Morales were working for Ex-General Edwin Walker through Guy Banister and Gerry Patrick Hemming in New Orleans and Miami.  Marita Lorenz got caught up in one sordid episode.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

As Christopher Walken might say, "You...you got a lotta rogues here, fella.  I mean -- a lotta rogues." 

[Joe Bauer]

19 hours ago, Douglas Caddy said:

Joe: I asked Detective Rothstein today the two questions that you posed.

1) Sturgis was not armed when first confronted in Marita's apartment. All he had with him was an attaché case with a change of clothing in it. The labels and anything other identifying tags on the clothing had been removed. So how had he planned  to kill Marita? With whatever means presented themselves in the apartment. This could range from a kitchen knife to a heavy vase. Whatever was available. Strangulation was always a possibility. Sturgis was a stone killer and had killed many persons and knew well how it could be done. Marita, by agreeing to testify to the Select House Committee on Assassinations and by agreeing to submit her files to the Committee, was violating the "Rule of Eighth Avenue" and the penalty for talking about how JFK was assassinated was that she would be killed.

2) No, Rothstein did not ask Sturgis if he had planned to harm Marita. Paul Meskill of The New York Daily News, who had set up the meeting earlier that day between Rothstein and Marita at which she told him of Sturgis's plan, possessed a telephone tape recording in which Sturgis made the threat. Rothstein later listened to the tape himself. Further, Monica, Marita's daughter, had been arrested that afternoon hiding in the bushes outside the apartment house armed with the intent to kill Sturgis when he showed up. Rothstein, a skilled detective, knew how the New York Police Department worked. He knew of the powerful rogue element that was within it. He knew that the only way he could make the arrest of Sturgis without alerting the NYPD first of his plan was to arrest Sturgis in his capacity as an officer and investigator of the New York State Select Commission on Crime. At the time of the Sturgis arrest Rothstein and his partner were assigned to the State Select Commission On Crime. Governor Carey had assigned them over the heads of the NYC Mayor and Police Commissioner. They were totally independent of NYPD but were still NYPD detectives. He knew that when he booked Sturgis at the police station he had to use Sturgis' real name, Frank Fiorini, because few knew of his real name. Otherwise the NYPD brass and the department's rogue element would have been alerted immediately and all hell would have broken out. Remember, when Frank Nelson mysteriously showed up at the station and asked if there was a Frank Sturgis being held here, the desk sergeant denied that there was such a person there but volunteered that a Frank Fiorini was being held. Nelson recognized the name as being Sturgis. This set off the bells and NYPD brass quickly entered the picture. So why did Rothstein take the precautionary measures that he had done in booking Sturgis under his real name? Because there was a powerful rogue element inside NYPD (as there is today) that had sanctioned Sturgis coming to New York City to kill Marita. Her murder was to be a sanctioned one. The truth of JFK's killing had to be suppressed. Rothstein relates what happened subsequently and how NYPD and the judge essentially enabled Sturgis to walk in a cover-up arrangement.

Both Marita and Sturgis were stone killers. Rothstein once asked Marita how many persons she had killed and she replied, "eight were  sanctioned by the government and the rest did not count." He did not asked the number of the rest. Some questions are not asked.

Thank you Doug for taking the time and effort to actually contact Rothstein and personally ask him these specific questions that I had presented.

I am so appreciative of your substantial commitment to this forum and all the other public venues where you clearly are trying to get important truths out for the enlightenment and betterment of our society and humanity's collective interests. The amount of your personal time and efforts in this endeavor seem huge if not "full time" and even more.   

Rogue elements in the NYPD in the 1970's? and still today?  Ominous indeed.

Same with the L.A.P. D.  in June of 1968?

Edited August 11, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Paul Trejo]

17 hours ago, David Andrews said:

As Christopher Walken might say, "You...you got a lotta rogues here, fella.  I mean -- a lotta rogues." 

David,

I agree.  Let's review the rogues:

1.  Rogues from the CIA (e.g. David Morales, Howard Hunt)

2. Rogues from the Dallas FBI (e.g. James Hosty)

3. Rogues from the Dallas Secret Service (e.g. Forrest Sorrels)

4. Rogues from among Dallas Deputies (e.g. Buddy Walthers)

5. Rogues from among the Dallas Sheriffs (e.g. Bill Decker)

6. Rogues from among the Dallas Police (e.g. Will Fritz, Jesse Curry)

7.  Rogues from among the Dallas Post Office (e.g. Harry Holmes)

8. Rogues from among CIA mercenaries trying to assassinate Fidel Castro (e.g. Loran Hall, Gerry Patrick Hemming, Frank Sturgis)

I'm losing count here -- and there are many more --- but what dawns on me in living color are the conclusions of the US House Select Committee on Assassinations (1979), to wit:

"The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that Kennedy was probably assassinated as a result of a conspiracy.  The committee was unable to identify the other gunmen or the extent of the conspiracy....

• The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that anti-Castro Cuban groups, as groups, were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
• The committee believes, on the basis of the evidence available to it, that the national syndicate of organized crime, as a group, was not involved in the assassination of Kennedy, but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved.
• The Secret Service, Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Central Intelligence Agency were not involved in the assassination of Kennedy" [but that the available evidence does not preclude the possibility that individual members may have been involved] (addition mine).

Yet I must repeat here -- all these Rogues absolutely require a Leader to organize all the moving parts.  That Leader would best coordinate from the vantage of Dallas itself.  My vote goes to Ex-General Edwin Walker.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 11, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Clark]

6 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Same with the L.A.P.D.  in June of 1958?

1968?

[Paul Trejo]

10 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

...Rogue elements in the NYPD in the 1970's? and still today?  Ominous indeed....

Joe,

In this context it is interesting to recall the words of former FBI agent Wesley Swearingen, whose book, To Kill a President (2008), insists that a dirty cop from Chicago named Richard Cain played a central role in coordinating Sam Giancana and Johnny Roselli with David Morales to plan the JFK assassination.

For Swearingen, this dirty cop played the role of a Rogue, having become corrupt by long years of dealing with the Mafia in Chicago, and might have even been a shooter, so great was his personal hatred of JFK.

Perhaps the lesson is that contact with the Mafia for 20 years or more tends to corrupt.

Regards,
--Paul Trejo

Edited August 11, 2017 by Paul Trejo

[Joe Bauer]

Doug, has Rothstein ever conveyed his personal feelings about JFK  to you?

Did Rothstein harbor any resentment and anger toward JFK regards the Bay Of Pigs?

When Rothstein describes in detail the death he personally witnessed in the waters there, it sounds as if he was deeply and negatively affected by this and one wonders who he blamed for it all.

[Joe Bauer]

Mike, I caught that year date error and quickly corrected it in my original post.  Yes, June 1968.

[Michael Clark]

2 minutes ago, Joe Bauer said:

Mike, I caught that year date error and quickly corrected it in my original post.  Yes, June 1968.

I am enjoying your inquiry into this issue, and always enjoy your posts.