Attorney's file on Roger Stone, LaRouche and Russia influencing the 2016 presidential election

[Kirk Gallaway]

Larry C. Johnson???    Yeah, good detective work at vetting your sources Jim.

But you never answer my questions directly, so I'll ask you another one.

Why is the Deep State so freaked about Trump? I've never heard any of you 3 here really articulate with any detail this alleged 70 year vendetta, that you obviously think exists, probably because you know it's so sketchy and it would sound foolish.

Just your calling someone the "Great Robert Parry and then the"Late great Robert Parry' to you means that any discerning mind should just believe everything from his "Consortium News?" which constitutes about half of your forum  record amount of links.I know the "Avengers is a ground swell down there, but some of us simply don't have the appetite for Super Heroes that you do Jim. We tend to be more critical

There are still some good pieces but the truth is anybody can write for Consortium News now. I notice you've just kneejerked links from Caitlain Johnstone , once again you did no research on the self proclaimed "Utopian Prepper" .who had absolutely not the slightest knowledge of Geopolitics or basic World Economics,but that doesn't stop her. I've found this with others as well. I don't know how much to attribute to perhaps Parry getting old and unable to police the quality of posts on his site, but they could use a real editor.

 

[Jeff Carter]

3 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

Larry C. Johnson???    Yeah, good detective work at vetting your sources Jim.

But you never answer my questions directly, so I'll ask you another one.

Why is the Deep State so freaked about Trump? I've never heard any of you 3 here really articulate with any detail this alleged 70 year vendetta, that you obviously think exists, probably because you know it's so sketchy and it would sound foolish.

Just your calling someone the "Great Robert Parry and then the"Late great Robert Parry' to you means that any discerning mind should just believe everything from his "Consortium News?" which constitutes about half of your forum  record amount of links.I know the "Avengers is a ground swell down there, but some of us simply don't have the appetite for Super Heroes that you do Jim. We tend to be more critical

There are still some good pieces but the truth is anybody can write for Consortium News now. I notice you've just kneejerked links from Caitlain Johnstone , once again you did no research on the self proclaimed "Utopian Prepper" .who had absolutely not the slightest knowledge of Geopolitics or basic World Economics,but that doesn't stop her. I've found this with others as well. I don't know how much to attribute to perhaps Parry getting old and unable to police the quality of posts on his site, but they could use a real editor.

 

Do you have any specific issues with the information presented in Johnson’s essay? Otherwise you are just dismissing it based on unrelated activity by the author. This technique is rather commonplace and has no determinative value, as is readily apparent recalling similar dismissals of Mark Lane (because he once represented the People’s Temple) and Fletcher Prouty (because he once published with the Liberty Lobby). Not to condone trafficking in gossip, but to single out Johnson’s years-old indiscretion after witnessing two and a half years of pervasive gossip mongering seems lacking in proportion. By the way, Johnson says the source for his Obama remarks was Sid Blumenthal.

Consortium News is actually an excellent source for these particular issues as it has a proven track record of accurate reporting, and it avoids partisan filters which, as can be seen with Cliff, promote muddy thinking. The Consortium News has never utterly blown a story the way such establishment icons as the NY Times and Washington Post have done twice in less than two decades, to catastrophic effect. No one is telling you to “believe everything” published by CN, but I have yet to see any critical analysis on your behalf beyond vague generalizations over supposed lack of “quality.”

Why is the Deep State freaked out by Trump? There hasn’t been an articulated reason beyond opposition to candidate Trump’s publicly stated position of improving ties with Russia. The opposition research represented by the Steele Dossier was focussed on Russia. The bizarre pattern of spooky figures initiating contact with Trump staffers and creating suspect Russian links continued the trend. The largely meaningless January 2017 ICA was entirely focussed on Russia. The hysterical freak-out over the Trump-Putin meeting in 2018 featured unprecedented scenes of media personalities calling the elected President a “traitor” on air. But why exactly a powerful segment of the Anglo establishment (the British have been a co-belligerent in the promotion of Russophobia) is determined to establish this new Cold war is as yet not well understood, even as its actual fact is apparent.

[James DiEugenio]

Kirk goes back to Johnson, when I linked to the Intercept with a different writer saying the same thing about Sater being an FBI asset for years on end.

Alright, what is your objection to that source? 

Waiting, waiting, waiting.

As per why the GOP establishment was opposed to Trump, well, anyone perceived as being from outside that establishment is always looked upon with an arched eyebrow.  I mean there is no doubt there was a "Get Trump out of here" movement.  If you deny that, then there is no point in discussing this anymore.

IMO, I think another reason was because of the things he said about Putin and Russia, and if you can believe it, way back then, he even spoke of a new deal for the Palestinians.  He has since been brought to heel on that.

I agree that the 2018 summit with Putin was just nutty in how it was treated by the MSM.  Even Jim Fallows, I guy I like and respect, went crazy.

IMO, this has been a misfire on Russia Gate, since it has allowed Trump to get away with many other things that should have been violently objected to.  I mean, in some ways, his domestic policy is worse than W.  Who I think is one of the worst five presidents ever, down there with the likes of Buchanan, Coolidge, Hoover, Nixon.

To drag the dead body of Bob Parry into this is really out there Kirk.  Parry won two coveted journalistic awards before he passed on.  He broke some of the biggest stories of the eighties, including the whole CIA cocaine/ Contra  plot and the Oliver North back channel to the Contras. No one did the work he did at the time on Iran Contra, it was so good Newsweek got rid of him.  He then continued that fine work with the October Surprise. Bob Parry was the finest journalist of his generation and a hero in that field.  One definition of heroism is someone who sacrifices his personal lot in life for an ideal.  He did that.

That you choose to smear him and uphold the disgraceful, hired guns of the  MSM speaks reams about the weakness of your argument.  

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by James DiEugenio

[Paul Brancato]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

Kirk goes back to Johnson, when I linked to the Intercept with a different writer saying the same thing about Sater being an FBI asset for years on end.

Alright, what is your objection to that source? 

Waiting, waiting, waiting.

As per why the GOP establishment was opposed to Trump, well, anyone perceived as being from outside that establishment is always looked upon with an arched eyebrow.  I mean there is no doubt there was a "Get Trump out of here" movement.  If you deny that, then there is no point in discussing this anymore.

IMO, I think another reason was because of the things he said about Putin and Russia, and if you can believe it, way back then, he even spoke of a new deal for the Palestinians.  He has since been brought to heel on that.

I agree that the 2018 summit with Putin was just nutty in how it was treated by the MSM.  Even Jim Fallows, I guy I like and respect, went crazy.

IMO, this has been a misfire on Russia Gate, since it has allowed Trump to get away with many other things that should have been violently objected to.  I mean, in some ways, his domestic policy is worse than W.  Who I think is one of the worst five presidents ever, down there with the likes of Buchanan, Coolidge, Hoover, Nixon.

To drag the dead body of Bob Parry into this is really out there Kirk.  Parry won two coveted journalistic awards before he passed on.  He broke some of the biggest stories of the eighties, including the whole CIA cocaine/ Contra  plot and the Oliver North back channel to the Contras. No one did the work he did at the time on Iran Contra, it was so good Newsweek got rid of him.  He then continued that fine work with the October Surprise. Bob Parry was the finest journalist of his generation and a hero in that field.  One definition of heroism is someone who sacrifices his personal lot in life for an ideal.  He did that.

That you choose to smear him and uphold the disgraceful, hired guns of the  MSM speaks reams about the weakness of your argument.  

 

Better off reading Russ Baker’s piece on Sater in Whowhatwhy.org. 

Russia Gate was the media obsession with a necessary and important investigation. Your beef is with them, and I agree with that, just like their obsession with Trump. 

Bob Parry did not write the article. I think he would be ashamed of what has become of his own publication. 

The Republican FBI threw the election for Trump. Are you blind? 

[Douglas Caddy]

Bio of the late great journalist, Bob Parry, who died this past January.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=robert+parry+biography&qs=AS&pq=robert+parry&sk=AS3SC1&sc=8-12&cvid=56A6A311B98341A69A60F0574879ABE6&FORM=QBRE&sp=5

 

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Douglas Caddy

[Kirk Gallaway]

Jim said,

To drag the dead body of Bob Parry into this is really out there Kirk.  Parry won two coveted journalistic awards before he passed on.  He broke some of the biggest stories of the eighties, including the whole CIA cocaine/ Contra  plot and the Oliver North back channel to the Contras. No one did the work he did at the time on Iran Contra, it was so good Newsweek got rid of him.  He then continued that fine work with the October Surprise. Bob Parry was the finest journalist of his generation and a hero in that field.  One definition of heroism is someone who sacrifices his personal lot in life for an ideal.  He did that.

That you choose to smear him and uphold the disgraceful, hired guns of the  MSM speaks reams about the weakness of your argument. 

If you had any memory, Jim. We actually both mourned his passing here, and I was the only one who acknowledged his Iran Contra work at the time.

Jim said:

To drag the dead body of Bob Parry into this is really out there Kirk.

"To drag the dead body?", Take a deep breathe and try reading what I posted, Jim. Or to make it easy, in deference to you attention span , you can read just my last sentence.This was more a comment to your hero worship and maybe Parry's capacity to police his site in his last years..

Jeff said:

But why exactly a powerful segment of the Anglo establishment (the British have been a co-belligerent in the promotion of Russophobia) is determined to establish this new Cold war is as yet not well understood, even as its actual fact is apparent.

I appreciate your more composed analysis, Jeff.  It's ok to say that you , like me don't understand why in the world there would be such an obsession with Russia. I can tell you why there once was. They were the world forerunners of an economic system that went against the ruling class's fundamental interests. That fear was greatly exacerbated by the Depression. But now they've opted into the world economic system, they're seen in terms of what they can provide in wealth and resources (human and otherwise) .Which isn't  a hell  of a lot so they're largely ignored. ."Even as its actual fact is apparent. "I'd say don't get sucked in  There is no obsession, It's mostly a lot of jawboning to just get support for more Defense spending.

Another reason given for the Deep State descending on Trump.

Jim says: If you can believe it, way back then, he even spoke of a new deal for the Palestinians.  He has since been brought to heel on that.

This assertion is so fraught with inaccuracies. I hardly know where to begin. Well... to hear you tell it, that was certainly a miscalculation by our intelligence agencies. 1)As for that being a reason for the "Deep State" to descend on Trump, have you forgotten that Obama, a suspected pinko Democrat, was also campaigning as sympathetic to the Palestinians? Why didn't they try to frame him?  2) So Trump was "brought to heel" on that, meaning he was finally coerced against his instincts to help the Palestinians? Wow, that's pretty "Deep" Jim!  But our Intelligence agencies were well aware that Bibi Netanyahu and not only Trump but his son in law as well, (who was very active in his campaign)have known each other for years! Jared had first met Bibi in his youth. Did you know that?

Jeff said: "but to single out Johnson’s years-old indiscretion after witnessing two and a half years of pervasive gossip mongering seems lacking in proportion "

I'm no authority on Johnson. I read Doug's link. But one thing that seems lost in the Trump era, is that words do matter and people are to be held responsible for what they say, and will in the future be judged for their credibility.

 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Kirk Gallaway

[Paul Brancato]

Deep State? How about we see it for what it is and always has been. Trump is the perfect front for the real Deep State. He passes laws that make the super rich even richer. In fact that’s his only legislative accomplishment - tax ‘reform’. He stacks his cabinet with pro business anti environment shills. And then he mouths off on every divisive issue 24/7. The Tree ( Deep State ) is evident by its fruits - hands off corporate wealth and power, divide and conquer the populace to keep them disunified. The crumbling of our society is deliberate - life expectancy going in reverse, education gutted for most of us while the children of wealth thrive. Uneducated citizenry drugged out on pills and pot, seduced by gladiator sports and Super Hero movies. Issues that common sense dictates should be settled law having to do with basic human rights are instead constantly attacked in order to keep us divided. Quit Bono? Does anyone really think the Uber rich care whether gays can marry or women an choose to abort? Of course not. It’s a strategy, and it’s deliberate. The media mouthpiece does the job of constant reinforcement of divisive issues. And they follow Trump 24/7. And he uses that bully pulpit, broadcast constantly, to rally his ‘base’, which is a well conceived loose knit group of ‘deplorables’ like racists, homophobes, anti-immigrant, anti abortion, mixed with undereducated undernourished underemployed white people who are justifiably angry.. it’s all out in the open with Trump. The aim? Control of the multicultural majority by a well funded white minority with the help of anything with can keep voter participation down. It’s fascism out in the open. 

[Joe Bauer]

Isn't it so simply obvious and reasonable why so many Americans are as concerned as they are about Trump's efforts to be closer to and less critical of Putin?

16 year former KGB Putin is the most corrupt, ruthless, human rights violating, democracy and vote subverting ( in complete controlling power for 19 years now ) free press and journalist threatening, obscene personal wealth accumulating and dangerous powerful nation leader we have seen in a long time.

Improving relations with Russia "as a nation" is a worthy goal.

It's a whole different matter with Putin himself.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

51 minutes ago, Paul Brancato said:

Deep State? How about we see it for what it is and always has been. Trump is the perfect front for the real Deep State. He passes laws that make the super rich even richer. In fact that’s his only legislative accomplishment - tax ‘reform’. He stacks his cabinet with pro business anti environment shills. And then he mouths off on every divisive issue 24/7. The Tree ( Deep State ) is evident by its fruits - hands off corporate wealth and power, divide and conquer the populace to keep them disunified. The crumbling of our society is deliberate - life expectancy going in reverse, education gutted for most of us while the children of wealth thrive. Uneducated citizenry drugged out on pills and pot, seduced by gladiator sports and Super Hero movies. Issues that common sense dictates should be settled law having to do with basic human rights are instead constantly attacked in order to keep us divided. Quit Bono? Does anyone really think the Uber rich care whether gays can marry or women an choose to abort? Of course not. It’s a strategy, and it’s deliberate. The media mouthpiece does the job of constant reinforcement of divisive issues. And they follow Trump 24/7. And he uses that bully pulpit, broadcast constantly, to rally his ‘base’, which is a well conceived loose knit group of ‘deplorables’ like racists, homophobes, anti-immigrant, anti abortion, mixed with undereducated undernourished underemployed white people who are justifiably angry.. it’s all out in the open with Trump. The aim? Control of the multicultural majority by a well funded white minority with the help of anything with can keep voter participation down. It’s fascism out in the open. 

Paul  ...         BINGO!     BRAVO!     RIGHT ON!

 

[Jeff Carter]

9 hours ago, Kirk Gallaway said:

But why exactly a powerful segment of the Anglo establishment (the British have been a co-belligerent in the promotion of Russophobia) is determined to establish this new Cold war is as yet not well understood, even as its actual fact is apparent.

I appreciate your more composed analysis, Jeff.  It's ok to say that you , like me don't understand why in the world there would be such an obsession with Russia. I can tell you why there once was. They were the world forerunners of an economic system that went against the ruling class's fundamental interests. That fear was greatly exacerbated by the Depression. But now they've opted into the world economic system, they're seen in terms of what they can provide in wealth and resources (human and otherwise) .Which isn't  a hell  of a lot so they're largely ignored. ."Even as its actual fact is apparent. "I'd say don't get sucked in  There is no obsession, It's mostly a lot of jawboning to just get support for more Defense spending.

How do you explain the hysteric tone that has been adopted? It's mainstream, and not simply an attribute of a relatively marginal base of troglodyte right-wingers the way it was in 1950s-60s. 

Joe Bauer: "16 year former KGB Putin is the most corrupt, ruthless, human rights violating, democracy and vote subverting ( in complete controlling power for 19 years now ) free press and journalist threatening, obscene personal wealth accumulating and dangerous powerful nation leader we have seen in a long time."

What are your sources for this characterization? It is my understanding that such portrayal sources directly to virulent opponents from ex-pat oligarchic circles largely based in London, England. 

[Paul Brancato]

There was no coup attempt on Trump. And you, Mr. Wheeler are no unwashed deplorable. Rather you are a well educated tool. 

[David Andrews]

Is Trump really antithetical to the Deep State?  So far, he's making out better than the Teflon Don.  His personal antics and corruption make excellent distractions from policy and won't be addressed by Robert Mueller. 

It's like we have some clown version of a Putin oligarchy in the WH.  What we can't fob off on the Deporables vote, we blame on the Russians.  Because his incumbency had to come from somewhere, and not from the Deep State, no siree!

And that anti-migrant agenda can't have originated with him, or be carried out by ground-level Federal agents without some higher approval. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by David Andrews

[Michael Clark]

9 hours ago, Paul Brancato said:

Deep State? ......

.... The aim? Control of the multicultural majority by a well funded white minority with the help of anything with can keep voter participation down. It’s fascism out in the open. 

Paul, I love, admire and respect your curiosity, courage, insight, intelligence and spirit. Because of that I hate to point out that you fail at your affect. I know we don’t all agree on definitions, meaning and nomenclature. I also know that everyone is not like me or think as I do. But, for your benefit, I will offer, (as I have done before on this same subject) a take on the meaning of a word or two that you tend to use in a manner that leaves me face-palmed; only because, for me, it pulls the rug from an analysis that is otherwise a tour de force.

Facism is by definition “Party Rule”. It is characterized by outward symbols of the ruling party.Those symbols and the party which they represent hold outward, absolute power over all people and institutions of government. 

A Facist deep state is a contradiction in terms. 

Both parties in the United States find  ways of characterizing each other as fascists; but the only affect of this game is division. 

If there is a crypto-party that represents the intersts of a militarist, industrial, racist and quasi-royalist regime that may or may not also represent some joint or several religious concerns, then it needs to be identified as such.

To pull-out the old “facist” card because it invokes a regime, that than which nothing worse can be invoked, does not identify the problem party and feeds into the hands of those who wish to keep us divided.

Remember that Nazis were truly Socialists and, based on what I know now, this may be what marked them for destruction more than any concerns about racism, religion or penchant for authoritarianism. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Michael Clark

[David Andrews]

Fascism may be unworkable in a country as large as the US.  Better to create fascist organizations as part of a plan to divide a large population, so that whichever sector irrupts into protest, violence, would-be revolution, can be demonized and oppressed.  For the relief and the education of the others.

Diversity and democracy are too fimly established as American ideals to be overturned - the point is to use these ideals to oppress objectors to corruption and anti-democratic rule.

[Paul Brancato]

15 minutes ago, Michael Clark said:

Paul, I love, admire and respect your curiosity, courage, insight, intelligence and spirit. Because of that I hate to fail at your affect. I know we don’t all agree on definitions, meaning and nomenclature. I also know that everyone is not like me or think as I do. But, for your benefit, I will offer, (as I have done before on this same subject) a take on the meaning of a word or two that you tend to use in a manner that leaves me pace-palmed; only because, for me, it pulls the rug from an analysis that is otherwise a tour de force.

Facism is by definition “Party Rule”. It is characterized by outward symbols of the ruling party.Those symbols and the party which they represent hold outward, absolute power over all people and institutions of government. 

A Facist deep state is a contradiction in terms. 

Both parties in the United States find  ways of characterizing each other as fascists; but the only affect of this game is division. 

If there is a crypto-party that represents the intersts on militarist, industrial, racist and quasi-royalist regime that may or may not represent some joint or several religious concerns, then it needs to be identified as such.

To pull-out the old “facist” card because it invokes a regime that than which nothing worse can be invoked does not identify the problem party and feeds into the hands of those whom wish to keep us divided.

Remember that Nazis were truly Socialists and, based on what I know now, this may be what marked them for destruction more than any concerns about racism, religion or penchant for authoritarianism. 

Very deep response Michael, very much appreciated. And I likewise respect you and admire your curiosity. 

I didn’t use the words Republican or Democrat in my post, and happy about that, because the two party system we are apparently wedded to is a major part of how the crypto-party operates. Republicans are more lock step in their support of the corporate agenda, but a good part of the Democratic Party is equally beholding to the aims of the military industrial medical congressional complex. This crypto rulership which I call fascist is determined to prevent a progressive socialist oriented government.

I recall in the past that you objected to my use of the word Nazi. In this case it’s Fascist. Do you feel that there is a better word or words to describe what is going on now? I realize that the word socialist is part of Nazi. But your analysis that this marked the Nazis for destruction makes no sense to me. Before Hitler decided to invade everyone he was well accepted by US and British ruling classes no? Hitler’s policies were full of hatred. I suppose one can espouse socialism and only apply it to white people of Aryan blood. But that’s not how  the rest of civilization would define it. 

Good to be clear about definitions and careful with labels.