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The Stamp on the Military ID card


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7 hours ago, Ian Lloyd said:

Chris (or anyone else),

What does the "(M)" relate to after the typed name?

Issued to Jesusa Reyes, female, Mother of Sponsor, Private First Class Lupe Munoz.  Chris said it's a dependent card.  Parent's can be dependents of children though I dread the possible prospect, while still better than others.

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11 hours ago, David Josephs said:

Chris - would the real Lee get one of these cards after leaving the Marines (remember Gorsky tells us this was March 1959, not Sept.)...
Associating a specific plan with those IDs and that photo is so convoluted...

No. Lt Ayers stated that, (and my own experience tends to confirm), that this would be the wrong card to issue any service member that receives orders for the Inactive Reserve.

Lt Ayers stated the only way Oswald could have been issued that card is if he was a DoD civilian employee contractor and needed access to a US facility overseas. I believe that Lt Ayers was being generous in that statement and that in reality civilian contractors are issued a card that looks like this:

rnj_id1.jpg

 

and this (proving there are no bad pictures of MM):

marilyn-monroe,tx0KgcjBLEqmn50JkLLC0A.jp

 

The Reserve, (active or inactive) and National Guard ID look just like their active duty counterparts but they are in red instead of green.

$_1.JPG

 

 

Edited by Chris Newton
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2 hours ago, Ron Bulman said:
10 hours ago, Ian Lloyd said:

Chris (or anyone else),

What does the "(M)" relate to after the typed name?

Issued to Jesusa Reyes, female, Mother of Sponsor, Private First Class Lupe Munoz.  Chris said it's a dependent card.  Parent's can be dependents of children though I dread the possible prospect, while still better than others.

I think that's correct. Her date of birth is 1898 per the ID.

The "Sponsor" is the Active Duty or Retired Military member whose benefits grant the card bearer access and privileges. Remember being discharged from Active Duty and being a Veteran does not make a person a "Retired Veteran" with full benefits (20 years of service or credits equaling 20 years in the case of Reserves and National Guard).

(M) Mother

(F) Father

(W) Wife

(S) Son

(D) Daughter

Edited by Chris Newton
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On 8/24/2017 at 4:03 PM, Chris Newton said:

This is an example of a Retired Military Dependent ID Card:

ID_Card.GIF

 

What does that tell us?

 


Could it be that the Military Dependent ID card wasn't laminated?

I ask because the one above surely wasn't laminated. Notice how the photo is crumpled up and the top edge of the paper (card stock?) has been rubbed/pushed down from the card being repeatedly pulled out of a wallet.  In particular, look at how the "es" part of "Reyes" on the signature is crumpled due to the surface of the card stock being rubbed down.

Or....

Was the plastic lamination layer in those days very, very thin? And did it not extend past the paper?

 

 

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50 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Could it be that the Military Dependent ID card wasn't laminated?

I ask because the one above surely wasn't laminated. Notice how the photo is crumpled up and the top edge of the paper (card stock?) has been rubbed/pushed down from the card being repeatedly pulled out of a wallet.  In particular, look at how the "es" part of "Reyes" on the signature is crumpled due to the surface of the card stock being rubbed down.

Or....

Was the plastic lamination layer in those days very, very thin? And did it not extend past the paper?

 

 

Sandy,

 

Good eye. I don't know if that one is laminated or not. They are supposed to be. I'm searching for the regulations that apply to them in that era. Here is another one that is laminated (you might need to zoom - this image is small).

RetroID.gif

 

Edited by Chris Newton
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4 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Lt Ayers stated the only way Oswald could have been issued that card is if he was a DoD civilian employee contractor and needed access to a US facility overseas. I believe that Lt Ayers was being generous in that statement and that in reality civilian contractors are issued a card that looks like this:

rnj_id1.jpg

 



Okay, but suppose for a moment that Lt. Ayers was correct.

 

ID_Card.GIF

 

This person, the serviceman's mother, is his dependent. Her name is typed in the "Issued To" box. Her son's name is typed in the "Grade and Name of Sponsor" box. Now compare this to Oswald's name on his ID card:

 

cmn_best_id.jpg

 

As in the card above, Oswald's name is typed in the "Issued to" box. But unlike the card above, NOBODY'S name is typed in the "Grade and Name of Sponsor" box. Only Oswald's grade is there. Would that be because he is his own sponsor? I mean, suppose he were a "DoD civilian employee contractor and needed access to a US facility overseas." Would they fill the form out as we see here, with no name in the "Grade and Name of Sponsor" box. And, importantly, the phrase "of Sponsor" crossed off in three different places... because civilian employees don't have sponsors?

I suggest that that is a possibility. That Oswald was indeed a "DoD civilian employee contractor" at some point.

And here's something for Harvey & Lee theory adherents: LEE Oswald may very well have been  a "DoD civilian employee contractor and needed access to a US facility overseas" after his time in the Marines. In which case his (and not HARVEY's) photo would have originally been pasted on the card.

And here's an add-on hypothesis: On assassination day, HARVEY wasn't killed as planned because Officer Tippet got cold feet. Tippet had to be taken out and his killing blamed on Oswald if at all possible. The assassination wrap up team had to come up with a fake Oswald wallet on the spur of the moment. They found that they has LEE's expired DoD Civilian Contractor card and one of HARVEY's expired Soviet identification cards. They ripped the photos off the two cards and pasted the Russian ID photo onto LEE's DOD Civilian Contractor card. Then they did the silly stamping to camouflage the Russian stamp on the photo. And they put this card inside Oswald's fake wallet.

 

 
Edited by Sandy Larsen
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31 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Would that be because he is his own sponsor?

Yes. Presumably that's why the word "sponsor" is also crossed out in two boxes.

I have yet to find a card like this issued to someone that did not have a "sponsor". I suspect whomever was pressing Lt. Ayers for an acceptable answer was stuck in the same conundrum we are and trying to make sense of this card. I quoted Lt Ayers from memory so give me some time and I'll come up with the citation.

 

The problem with suggesting that he is a civilian contractor, in the context of this ID card, is that the card's "Service Status" box clearly says "MCR/INACT" it does not say that the current status is CONTRACTOR or anything like that. MCR/INACT means Marine Corps Reserve / Inactive to me.  Inactive Marine Corps Servicemen have no PX privileges and do not get this card IMHO.

Edited by Chris Newton
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32 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

And here's an add-on hypothesis: On assassination day, HARVEY wasn't killed as planned because Officer Tippet got cold feet. Tippet had to be taken out and his killing blamed on Oswald if at all possible. The assassination wrap up team had to come up with a fake Oswald wallet on the spur of the moment. They found that they has LEE's expired DoD Civilian Contractor card and one of HARVEY's expired Soviet identification cards. They ripped the photos off the two cards and pasted the Russian ID photo onto LEE's DOD Civilian Contractor card. Then they did the silly stamping to camouflage the Russian stamp on the photo. And they put this card inside Oswald's fake wallet.

I like that hypothesis. What if the person(s) that set up Oswald had access to his seabags in the Paine garage? Could they have removed an ID card sometime between 11/12/63 and 11/21/63 to make this mock-up ID card and fake wallet (presumably to connect LHO to  Hidell and the Tippet murder)?

The other question I'll bring up is the N.O. arrest. The FBI report about that arrest says he produced an ID signed by Lt. Ayers. If you produce an expired DoD ID Card as an ID to the police, do they let you keep that? Is there another card that is not expired at the time of his arrest? Does he get the "fake" ID back or does the FBI take it from him at that time so that it can magically reappear in his "Tippet" wallet?

 

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1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

The problem with suggesting that he is a civilian contractor, in the context of this ID card, is that the card's "Service Status" box clearly says "MCR/INACT" it does not say that the current status is CONTRACTOR or anything like that. MCR/INACT means Marine Corps Reserve / Inactive to me.  Inactive Marine Corps Servicemen have no PX privileges and do not get this card IMHO.


Chris,

Suppose a serviceman leaves the military and is in inactive status. He isn't eligible for the card (PX privileges, etc.), as you pointed out. He then gets a job as a contractor for the DoD. According to Lt. Ayers he would then be eligible for the card.* The question then becomes, what should be typed in the Service Status box?

If the contractor has never been in the military, he would have no service status. So maybe the word "None" would be typed in that box. But if he had been in the military, maybe his status would be typed there. MCR/INACT in Oswald's case.


*There is a potential snag in this statement. Lt Ayers said that the person needed to be a "DoD civilian employee contractor." If the person was an inactive serviceman working for a civilian company, doing contract work for the DoD, would that make the person a civilian contractor? And thus eligible for the card? I would think so. I used to work for a government contractor, and I just can't imagine that we all would have been eligible for the card except for those of us who had been in the military.

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31 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Suppose a serviceman leaves the military and is in inactive status. He isn't eligible for the card (PX privileges, etc.), as you pointed out. He then gets a job as a contractor for the DoD. According to Lt. Ayers he would then be eligible for the card.* The question then becomes, what should be typed in the Service Status box?

Then the DoD issues him a card which I suggest would still be a different card. Lt. jg. Ayers Commanded the Marine Unit that processed Oswald's paperwork when he transitioned out of the Marine Corps and became a civilian. They were doing his exit papers, his DD 214, etc.  I don't even think they are the correct authority to be issuing that card. I'm very skeptical that MACS would ever issue that card to any service member on their ETS.

Edited by Chris Newton
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1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

I like that hypothesis. What if the person(s) that set up Oswald had access to his seabags in the Paine garage? Could they have removed an ID card sometime between 11/12/63 and 11/21/63 to make this mock-up ID card and fake wallet (presumably to connect LHO to  Hidell and the Tippet murder)?


Another possibility is that Oswald's fake defection handler asked Oswald to surrender certain or all official Soviet documents when he returned to the States and kept them for whatever "Oswald Project" needs that might later pop up. That's what I would do if I were in charge of such an extensive program. I wouldn't trust agents under me to keep such things.

 

1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

The other question I'll bring up is the N.O. arrest. The FBI report about that arrest says he produced an ID signed by Lt. Ayers.


Wow, that sure sounds like Oswald had in his possession the card we are discussing. (Except that the stated height on the card matches that of LEE's, not HARVEY's.)  Unless there is some other military ID card Oswald might have had. I wouldn't think there would be any legitimate card in Oswald's possession given that he was dishonorably discharged. (Or did he get that changed?)

 

1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

If you produce an expired DoD ID Card as an ID to the police, do they let you keep that?



I have a hard time believing that the police will confiscate ID cards because they are expired. Unless the military requires servicemen to turn them in, AND there is a federal law requiring police forces to confiscate them. (Without such a law, the military would have to have an agreement in place with every city in the United States where they wanted their cards to be confiscated.)

 

1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

Is there another card that is not expired at the time of his arrest? Does he get the "fake" ID back or does the FBI take it from him at that time so that it can magically reappear in his "Tippet" wallet?


So far, in studying the case, I haven't found any reason to believe the FBI was in on the assassination. I have seen some comments on the forum that imply Hosty was in on it, but I don't know what the details are... why it is believed Hosty was in on it.

But then, I'm somewhat of a newb.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:
36 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Suppose a serviceman leaves the military and is in inactive status. He isn't eligible for the card (PX privileges, etc.), as you pointed out. He then gets a job as a contractor for the DoD. According to Lt. Ayers he would then be eligible for the card.* The question then becomes, what should be typed in the Service Status box?

Then the DoD issues him a card which I suggest would still be a different card. Lt. jg. Ayers Commanded the Marine Unit that processed Oswald's paperwork when he transitioned out of the Marine Corps and became a civilian. They were doing his exit papers, his DD 214, etc.  I don't even think they are the correct authority to be issuing that card. I'm very skeptical that MACS would ever issue that card to any service member on their ETS.

Edited 2 minutes ago by Chris Newton


I understand. That whole post, with my hypothesis, is predicated on the possibility that Lt. Ayers was correct about civilian contractors getting that dependent card. Which may be wrong. Or may be right.  :)

BTW, what is ETS?

 

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7 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I understand. That whole post, with my hypothesis, is predicated on the possibility that Lt. Ayers was correct about civilian contractors getting that dependent card. Which may be wrong. Or may be right.  :)

BTW, what is ETS?

I don't think you understand how serious security is to the military. He is saying who gets the card -not saying he's going to issue it.

Lt jg. Ayers said he would NOT have issued that card to Oswald.  I agree with him.

Quote

In the United States military, ETS generally stands for "expiration - term of service" and is contained in each service member's contract. On the ETS date, a service member's current contract has expired and the service member is free to leave the military or sign a re-enlistment contract.

 

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I'm in the UK so missed the recent posts but it's good to see that I got you all thinking along the same lines that my thoughts were starting to take me...

Looking at Gary Powers' ID card, his states "SELF" as a sponsor - different methods for different arms of the  military?...

http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/military-identification-card-of-francis-gary-powers-pilot-news-photo/170987364#military-identification-card-of-francis-gary-powers-pilot-of-the-u2-picture-id170987364

Would it be normal to sponsor oneself?

Was it usual to strike through "sponsor" on the card?

 

Edited by Ian Lloyd
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