The Stamp on the Military ID card

[James DiEugenio]

Chris:

"Reserve component Service members on active duty for more than 30 Days" is the only one I can see for Oswald having the card.

 

Does anyone have the LaFontaine book?

 

[Tom Hume]

Jim asked, “If I recall correctly, did not the La Fontaines write about this in their book ‘Oswald Talked?”

The link below provides about 13 pages of the La Fontaine’s thorough looking research into the card under discussion. Unfortunately, the introductory and concluding pages are missing from this google books preview. It’s worth reading, however, and if anybody has the book, it would be interesting to know the La Fontaine’s conclusion.

"House of Cards" chapter, start at page 66.

https://books.google.com/books?id=ymfQdYoqKyEC&pg=PA70&lpg=PA70&dq=4,271,617&source=bl&ots=8sAdoVwyIt&sig=Ew3c_aoaT1lNJD4uhU6EXR_O7lo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj2_taeiPPVAhWGjlQKHdCcBHA4ChDoAQhIMAk#v=onepage&q=4%2C271%2C617&f=false

Edited August 25, 2017 by Tom Hume

[James DiEugenio]

Thanks Tom,  here is an observation from the review of the book:

 

 The DOD picture 1.D. card issued to Oswald in the fall of 1959, before he went to the Soviet Union, uses the Minsk photo, obviously not taken until after 1959, and is the same photo which appears on the phony Hidell selective service card allegedly found on Oswald at the time of his arrest on 11/22/63. 

 

Is the above true?

[Chris Newton]

Also from Harold Weiseberg collection is this pdf of an email chain. Note the very last email stating that Lafontaine had checked with the Marine Historian concerning this and was told one of the possible reasons for getting this card was if Oswald were "a civilian employee of DoD".

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg Subject Index Files/L Disk/LaFontaine Ray & Mary The Fourth Tramp/Item 32.pdf

I still think that the postmark and the fact that it made it's way back to Dallas on 11/22/63 are, in fact, "the fingerprints of intelligence".

[Mark Stevens]

5 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Thanks Tom,  here is an observation from the review of the book:

 

 The DOD picture 1.D. card issued to Oswald in the fall of 1959, before he went to the Soviet Union, uses the Minsk photo, obviously not taken until after 1959, and is the same photo which appears on the phony Hidell selective service card allegedly found on Oswald at the time of his arrest on 11/22/63. 

 

Is the above true?

Hello Jim,

It would appear to be true based on information regarding the photo in the WCR. I cannot find any information about the photo regarding when and where it was taken though and knowing that would be beneficial in establishing the true age and lineage of the photo. There are enough similarities between the blemishes on the photos and the subjects to believe the same photo was used for each one though.

Commission Exhibits 2891/2892:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh26/pdf/WH26_CE_2892.pdf

Military ID's from page one:

http://harveyandlee.net/JH PIX/LHO 2 ID cards.jpg

http://harveyandlee.net/JH PIX/LHO ID card.jpg

Hidell Selective Service Card:

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh19/html/WH_Vol19_0153b.htm

Something interesting I saw, and forgive me if it has been mentioned before but in the lower right corner of both the WCR photo and the ID photo there is a rounded blemish. On the Military ID photo the blemish is both partially obscured and "explained" by the stamp in the same position. On the WCR photo though there is no real explanation for the blemish, but it does further solidify that they are the same photo. The blemish is also visible on the Selective Service Card but how visible it is depends on the version of the card photo you view. This version of the Oswald photo is cropped just below the head and just a small sliver of the top of the blemish is visible. 

[Mark Knight]

The key is the COLOR of the BACKGROUND of the card. The ORANGE background, according to my research, was SPECIFICALLY FOR DEPENDENTS of military or ex-military personnel.

If Oswald got a hardship discharge from the military ostensibly to deal with the health of his mother, it would be conceivable that he convinced someone that his mother had no one else to care for her. That would make the case that, in the eyes of the military (at least those just above Oswald) that Marguerite was Lee's "dependent," in this context.

So that would imply that the card with Lee's name, photo and signature was a forgery. If Lee produced the forgery, it was likely during his employment at Jagger-Chiles-Stovall.

But if the card was NOT a forgery, then Lee Oswald likely had an undercover relationship with some organization (CIA, MI, etc) that provided him with the bogus credential.

So which scenario is most likely? We may never know the definitive answer.

I would think that, while Oswald was in the Soviet Union, having this card in his possession there after allegedly renouncing his US citizenship would have seemed quite suspect. That's why I believe this card never made the trip to the USSR with Oswald. But back in the civilians world, the card likely wouldn't be questioned, and the way the front of the card reads, he would've had PX privileges at military bases, among other benefits. And in the uncomputerized 1960's, this card would likely have gotten Oswald on any US military base just about anywhere in the world...for whatever purposes.

[James DiEugenio]

I have to say after looking at Mark Steven's post, it does look like the Minsk photo.

How can that be possible though?

[Jim Hargrove]

Mark makes a fascinating comparison....

Note this detail from the old "EVOLUTION OF LEE HARVEY OSWALD" poster prepared by Jack White and John Armstrong:

(The shadow at lower right is caused by my cell phone, which I used to copy the image from the poster, which has been hanging on my office door for some two decades now.)
 

[Tom Hume]

My US Military service didn’t start until 1967, but every piece of official military ID I was familiar with was laminated in plastic. According to the La Fontaine’s, (Oswald Talked, p. 78), one of the inconsistencies with Oswald’s DD 1173 was that it was un-laminated, per 1959 Marine Corps regulations. 

 

Edited August 26, 2017 by Tom Hume

[James DiEugenio]

Having read the LaFontaine excerpt provided by Tom, there seems to be now six mysteries about this DOD card besides the problem of why he was issued that particular card, a dependent card.

 

1. The problem with the photo which appears to be the Minsk photo.

2.  The mystery of the non lamination.  As Tom says, agreeing with the LaFontaines,  it should have been laminated.

3. The mystery of the overstamp

4.  A new one is the fact it was noticed in his passport application form a week before the card itself was issued to him.  Which was not supposed to happen.

5. Who was Stout, who signed off on some of Oswald's separation papers who Ayers, the guy who signed the card, never heard of. Yet they were supposed to be on the same base.

6. How did it get returned to Oswald?  I don't think that should have happened.  Neither does Chris.

 

Does anyone have Doug Horne's long essay on this issue that he did for the ARRB?  I think its online someplace.

To me, it seems like this is one of those matters that was never solved or even really addressed by the WC or the HSCA.

Edited August 26, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Tom Hume]

Jim asked: “Does anyone have Doug Horne’s long essay on this issue that he did for the ARRB? I think its online someplace”

Apparently the links on Bill Kelly’s 2009 post used to get this Douglas Horne essay. The links no longer work but maybe they will help track it down.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/topic/15121-oswalds-military-id-dd1173/?page=1

 

[Chris Newton]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

2.  The mystery of the non lamination.  As Tom says, agreeing with the LaFontaines,  it should have been laminated.

Just FYI, I also agree with this. The WW2 Army ID I have is laminated. I don't know when they started doing this but it's been SOP for a long, long time.

[Chris Newton]

1 hour ago, James DiEugenio said:

6. How did it get returned to Oswald?  I don't think that should have happened.  Neither does Chris

I think that this mystery is the biggest one of all. If it was returned to the DoD through the procedure in place to return lost ID cards through the US mail, well... you believe in the tooth fairy if you think that it was subsequently returned to Oswald.

The fact that it wasn't laminated meant that the postage office stamp defaced the card. This defacement may render the card useless as an official document. Therefore, for what purpose would the DoD return the card to Oswald? I'm sure the DoD SOP, even though I haven't read it,  is that the issuing authority needs to re-issue a new card.

[James DiEugenio]

The late Geoge Evica made some observations on this card in his last book A Certain Arrogance:

First, he notes that it was assigned to Oswald about a week before he left the service. And apparently used to get his passport at that time.

He also notes the Minsk photo problem.

He adds some more mystery as to the over stamp.  First, the card had expired in 1962.  On the back its says if lost return to a post office and the post office should return to the DOD.

FInally, he thinks there was no officer Stout who signed the separation papers.  ( see pgs 9-11)

 The reason he thinks this is because if the same person signed both the separation papers and the request for passport they would have understood you could not reconcile Oswald using for the first the excuse his mother was injured, and the itinerary on the second application.  

Edited August 26, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Chris Newton]

Just thinking out loud...

 

Why would a conspiracy plotter plant this card (say that  three times fast) in Oswald's wallet knowing it would raise questions of authenticity? reverse sheep-dipping?

 

A card like this - unlaminated - could not survive for long in anyone's wallet, and maybe not alone and exposed on a trip through the mail with an attached photo. Therefore, this ID and maybe the entire wallet are elaborate frauds.

 

Oswald has had real military IDs and has seen probably hundreds more during his tour. He knows they are laminated. The lamination part of creating the card is the easy and cheap and the material is at every "five and dime" back then. I propose that If Oswald had gone to the trouble of making this card he would have laminated it.