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The Stamp on the Military ID card


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3 hours ago, Chris Newton said:

Another problem:

The "Expiration Date" : 7 Dec 1962      no real clerk in the military writes "1962" there.  It's just "62" gentlemen.


Interesting.

At least they got the order correct... day month year.

I once worked for government contractors. (Not military, but CIA. NSA, et al.) They DID get the order correct, but they wrote out the full year. Just like on Oswald's ID. FWIW. I don't know if that is typical for government contractors. Or for CIA.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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31 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I once worked for government contractors. (Not military, but CIA. NSA, et al.) The DID get the order correct, but they wrote out the full year. Just like on Oswald's ID. FWIW

I realize that could be the case, in another setting, on a different document, typed by non-military personnel. This card was issued by H&HS, MACS, EL TORO and Signed by a LT. JG in the US Marine Corps Reserve. The date format is correct elsewhere on the card. I don't buy it, that it was another private or non comm that typed that incorrect date format on the front of the card. I think it is probably a sloppy error by whomever forged the card. Compare it to the other card I posted.

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41 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Are we beginning to agree that this a not a kosher ID?

But Oswald was issued a card like this right?  Before he left Santa Anna was he not?

If this is not it, then what happened to that card?

I agree there's nothing kosher about this card.

It seems to have many elements that would indicate it's not something that Oswald would have been able to produce on his own, like LT. Ayers signature. Ayers has said he would not have issued this card to Oswald.

btw... Lt. Ayers signed many of Oswald's other separation papers so his is the expected authority signature on the ID.

The card is numbered because it grants privileges at the PX and commissary. Numbered ID cards like this have restricted access to the blanks. How would Oswald acquire a blank numbered card to make a forgery?

Lt Ayers says the only way Oswald could have been a issued card like this is if he had been a civilian contractor going overseas. If that were the case, that he was issued the card then why is it not laminated, why is the date format on the front wrong? Why has the picture been altered and what are those stamps that resemble postage stamps but aren't?

Edited by Chris Newton
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1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

I don't buy it, that it was another private or non comm that typed that incorrect date format on the front of the card.


I hope you didn't think I was implying that. I was in fact thinking that maybe it was typed by a non-military government employee, perhaps a CIA employee forging the ID.

Edited by Sandy Larsen
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22 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

I hope you didn't think I was implying that. I was in fact thinking that maybe it was typed by a non-military government employee, perhaps a CIA employee forging the ID.

I think you were just pointing out a possibility, even if it was highly unlikely, and we should acknowledge that our military screws stuff up. Murphy's law.

If the card is an authentic, non-laminated DoD ID card then that suggests that the Marine Corps MACS Unit that issued it at El Toro, NAS was incredibly incompetent.

If the card is a forgery then either someone made it and planted it on Oswald or Oswald either made it or obtained it somehow himself.

There could be a scenario where Oswald is given a blank numbered card by a third party and uses that to create a forgery for himself.

Maybe a CIA guy that isn't really good at making ID's made it for him, DAP?

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1 hour ago, Chris Newton said:

I think you were just pointing out a possibility, even if it was highly unlikely, and we should acknowledge that our military screws stuff up. Murphy's law.


Well, no, that thought never entered my mind.

I've been mulling over for some time now your idea... that a fake wallet including a fake military ID card might have been prepared. Possibly by the CIA, just in case it might come in handy. Or maybe they had a specific use in mind, but ended up dropping it at the site of the Tippit shooting. It wasn't a great forgery, but it was good enough for its intended use.

But even in that scenario, why all the odd stamps?

 

 

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48 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

But if its a fraud, why does it have the over stamp on it?

"What is the over stamp?" is as good a question as "why does it have an over stamp?".

Maybe if we can figure out one answer then we'll figure out the other. I thought the stamps were postage cancellation stamps but it seems they are not. I have yet to find any, on the web, from any source or country that have a date along the outside rim of a circular cancellation stamp. I thought maybe it's an ink seal of some kind and I am still researching that.

 

Edited by Chris Newton
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Has the erased semicircle of the photo been discussed? The lower-right corner of the photo has been painted white for some reason. The whited out part is in the shape of a semicircle.

Could that  makeshift stamp have been put there in an attempt to cover up that defect in the photo? If so, it worked on me. I didn't notice the photo's defect till I looked at it closely.

That whited out part and the stamps are so amateurish that it's hard to believe the CIA made that thing. The rest looks pretty good though, to the untrained non-military eye.

 

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6 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said:

But the text isn't aligned consistently with any of the three circles. It seems clear to me that the the text was stamped independent of the circles.

Ok. I assume we are discussing the " OCT   23    1963".

That text may not align on the circle as a group but they may each align to a circle individually. I'm playing around with it in a Photoshop to see if I can discover anything. Maybe they don't align with each other or the circles?  I have no explanation yet.

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38 minutes ago, Chris Newton said:

Ok. I assume we are discussing the " OCT   23    1963".

That text may not align on the circle as a group but they may each align to a circle individually. I'm playing around with it in a Photoshop to see if I can discover anything. Maybe they don't align with each other or the circles?  I have no explanation yet.

 

That's an interesting thought. Unfortunately the "23" seems to be rotated too far clockwise to be aligned with its circle. However, I'm just eye-balling it, and the bottom of the "3" is faded. So probably the tops of the numbers need to be used to determine if the number is printed parallel with a tangent line drawn through the circle.

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Here's a thought.

Over the years I've had several occasions where two papers in my wallet get stuck together. And when I pull them apart I find that the print on one of the papers has been transferred or copied to the other paper in contact with it.

It usually happens with something I recently got stamped. Because the ink isn't completely dry when I put the paper (usually card stock) back in my wallet.

Suppose, for whatever reason, Oswald was goofing around with stamps on something not-so-important in his wallet, and he returned it to his wallet prematurely. And an image of his stamps got transferred to his military ID card.

I kinda like this explanation. But that whited out area on the photo seems to match the stamps. And in that respect it seems like the stamps belong to the ID card.

 

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