Joan Mellen did not debunk LBJ’s complicity in JFK’s murder

[Larry Hancock]

Sandy, I would agree with Jim.  First off there are some very basic problems with the timeline of Hoover's documented arrival in Fort Worth, his holding forth in his suite there and any late arrival...which would have to have been more like 2am.   I should also point out that in the book MB says Johnson left the party to go to the Cellar...which is literally impossible. 

While there certainly may have been a party, a social gathering, the whole thing just makes no sense from any sort of conspiracy standpoint.  None of these people were stupid, most were quite cunning if detestable morally and otherwise.  If you want them all in a conspiracy it would sound far more sane without the party story.

 

 

[James DiEugenio]

Tilly was the guy that, if I recall correctly, Penn Jones allegedly got the story from in the first place.

I used to know this stuff backwards and forwards because I got into a big argument with Livingstone about it.  And at one point, I traced the whole story and how it had evolved over time into what Livingstone did with it, which was really kind of nutty.

I didn't know that Walt Brown was in on MB's book also though.

Nigel Turner was just a very bad researcher. I don't know who was on his staff but they did not serve the research community very well.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 5, 2017 by James DiEugenio

[Larry Hancock]

Jim, that was my mistake and I intended to go back and correct it earlier....the individual involved directly with MB in writing the book was Ed Tatro not Walt Brown, Livingston worked with her on getting it actually published.   Ed has discussed his work on the book with me before although I don't know the exact timeline of his work as compared to when Livingston got involved; my impression is that Ed was into it first.

[David Andrews]

On ‎9‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 9:09 PM, Sandy Larsen said:

Larry,

Did MB's early story have ANYBODY of significance attending the party? Hoover? And did Johnson say ANYTHING that indicated he was aware of a plot?

Till now I've dismissed her story completely because of that long list of attendees. But now I'm reconsidering and wondering if there was anything of significance that can be learned from the real story. I watched the video of that housekeeper (cook? I don't recall) who said that she was told Hoover would be there. (She said she would have gone there if the VIP were someone famous, but she hadn't heard of Hoover.)  Anyway, her testimony seemed sincere. That' also has me taking a second look at MB's story.

 

You know...it's kind of strange that any American of the period would not know who J. Edgar Hoover was.  I was age four in November 1963 and I'm sure I firmly knew who Hoover was by 1968, thanks to TV news, newspapers, movies, and even comic books.  You'd think that name would have had even more currency in the earlier Cold War days, and with people raised in the gangbusters era.  Hoover was pretty much the ne plus ultra of law enforcement in the public mind.

Edited September 6, 2017 by David Andrews

[Joe Bauer]

David Andrews, I don't know anything about May Newman's early personal background but I "assume" she was born and raised in Ireland.

Her accent sure indicates such.

And she remained a "seamstress and companion" all of her 36 years working as a domestic for Virginia Murchison.

That would indicate to me that Ms. Newman probably wasn't highly educated and perhaps even poor growing up in Ireland.

And from her age appearance in the TMWKK documentary video ( which was what ... almost 40 years after 1963? )  and with Newman claiming she had only started working for Virginia Murchison 1 or 2 years previous to 11, 21, 1963, she must have been a fairly young woman at that time.

So, you have a young woman raised in another country and who obviously wasn't studying "International Relations" at the University Of Dublin.

J. Edgar Hoover was someone a young person raised poor in Ireland like Newman might easily have never heard about in her daily circles and discussions there. Hence, her claim of not knowing who Hoover was seems logically believable. 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Joe Bauer

[Sandy Larsen]

23 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Thanks for looking that up Larry.

That story along with Mae Newman's leads me to believe that Hoover was indeed at the party. Or at least was supposed to be. I'll have to go back and listen to Newman's story again.

Though this doesn't seem very important. So what if Hoover was at the party?

 

 

21 hours ago, James DiEugenio said:

It does not mean that at all Sandy.  Because at least in that version [MB] did not see [Hoover].  . 

True. Which is why I said, "Or at least [Hoover] was supposed to be [there]." By which I meant to imply that perhaps he wasn't.

But I see no reason not to believe that early version of the story. At least not the way Larry speaks of it. It seems innocuous enough.

On the other hand, I suppose MB could have been a habitual fibber who would make things up for no particular reason. Larry seems not to think so.

 

19 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Sandy, I would agree with Jim.  First off there are some very basic problems with the timeline of Hoover's documented arrival in Fort Worth, his holding forth in his suite there and any late arrival...which would have to have been more like 2am.   I should also point out that in the book MB says Johnson left the party to go to the Cellar...which is literally impossible. 

While there certainly may have been a party, a social gathering, the whole thing just makes no sense from any sort of conspiracy standpoint.  None of these people were stupid, most were quite cunning if detestable morally and otherwise.  If you want them all in a conspiracy it would sound far more sane without the party story.

True. Which is why I said, "Though this doesn't seem very important. So what if Hoover was at the party?"

But regardless, I am with Joe Bauer regarding May Newman. I believe she was told that Hoover was to be there. (Which is corroborated by MB, who wrote that he was to be the guest of honor.) And I believe Newman didn't know who Hoover was, for reasons offered by Joe.

Now, what I don't recall is whether or not she spoke as tough Hoover actually did attend. If she did, she may have have done so only because she assumed so.

Anyway, none of this matters much to me. The most sinister interpretation I gather from the meeting is that Hoover was invited, and possibly he did sleep on the flight and did attend. Which doesn't sound very sinister to me. I agree with Jim (and presumably Larry) that this incident should not have been in TMWKK. It's a shame that things like this (and even worse, the JVB story, IMO) are in such a well performed documentary.

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Sandy Larsen

[Larry Hancock]

Agreed Sandy, they consume immense bandwidth and divert from the massive issues with the evidence related to the crime itself and the equally massive disconnects related to the Warren Commission and its official story line.   People who enter this subject for the first time can easily be diverted by such things -- been there, done that - but it appears they will be with us forever.

[David Andrews]

10 hours ago, Joe Bauer said:

David Andrews, I don't know anything about May Newman's early personal background but I "assume" she was born and raised in Ireland.

Her accent sure indicates such.

And she remained a "seamstress and companion" all of her 36 years working as a domestic for Virginia Murchison.

That would indicate to me also that she wasn't highly educated in Ireland growing up, perhaps even being poor.

And from her age appearance in the TMWKK documentary video ( which was what ... almost 40 years after 1963? )  and with Newman claiming she had only started working for Virginia Murchison 1 or 2 years previous to 11,21,1963, she must have been a fairly young woman at that time.

So, you have a young woman raised in another country and who obviously wasn't studying "International Relations" at the University Of Dublin.

J. Edgar Hoover was someone a young person raised in Ireland like Newman might easily have never heard about in her daily circles and discussions there. Hence, her claim of not knowing who Hoover was is logically believable. 

1) Do we know how long May Newman lived in the US?  Did she have other employers before the Murchison family?

2) She never listened to a radio while in the US?  It created a generation of illiterate Hoover fans and "junior G-Men."

3) I'm not sure Hoover would get a mention in an "International Relations" course abroad.

4) "University of Dublin" - do we know she's from southern Ireland?

You know that Oswald guy?  You can probably assume he's a communist, too.

Edited September 6, 2017 by David Andrews

[Joe Bauer]

4 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Agreed Sandy, they consume immense bandwidth and divert from the massive issues with the evidence related to the crime itself and the equally massive disconnects related to the Warren Commission and its official story line.   People who enter this subject for the first time can easily be diverted by such things -- been there, done that - but it appears they will be with us forever.

I entered the 11,21,1963 Murchison party subject realm decades ago when I first heard Madeline Brown speak of it on popular daytime national TV talk shows followed by other media appearances and later, her book and her interview in the documentary TMWKK. 

I wasn't a researcher but her story was so compelling in regards to her claims of being LBJ's long time mistress and her son Steven being fathered by LBJ ( which I  think everyone now accepts as true ) and "especially" her claim of LBJ personally growling an ominous forewarning in her ear on the evening of 11,21,1963 that "after tomorrow those blankity-blank Kennedy's will never embarrass me again" I had to follow it.

This JFK assassination forewarning claim by Ms. Brown suggested some complicity on LBJ's part even if it involved just knowing ahead of time that JFK was to be killed on 11,22,1963. To me, this was a mind blowing and super important assassination revelation...if true.

Madeline Brown's JFK's assassination forewarning via LBJ claim captured massive national attention for a long time ( with help from benefactors ) regardless if there was no hard evidence to support it outside of some secondary validation that several parts of her LBJ mistress, LBJ fathering her son story were, to debatable degrees, true.  

And still today, Ms. Brown's JFK death forewarning via LBJ part of her story is still compelling enough to occasionally read and think about ... if only to  imagine how much this shocking implication ( if true ) would rock us with a chilling awareness of not just who was responsible for JFK's assassination, but also how much of a false reality we have been living in since 11,22,1963.

But why bother with such frivolous contemplation?

There have been many discrepancies discovered in Madeline Brown's story over the years. Enough so that many esteemed researchers have simply dismissed her JFK/LBJ forewarning claim as simply untrue and a waste of time to even discuss.

As Larry says, Brown's Murchison gathering story ( and other related one's like May Newman's ) are simply unimportant wasteful diversions from much more important hard evidence JFK research information and discussion.

However, the reason I give May Newman's Murchison get together on 11,21,1963 with Hoover in attendance story any forum time at all is because I believe it. And because I believe it, I feel it has more importance than solely a wasteful diversion as it bolsters Madeline Brown's Murchison story at least in the sense that the meeting happened and took place the evening of 11,21,1963 and that Hoover did attend.  And if Hoover was there, I find it much more believable that LBJ  may have raced out to this gathering even after he and his wife checked into their hotel at 11:05 PM considering he and Hoover were so close ( as LBJ said to Hoover on a recorded call..."like brothers" ) and for so long.

And if LBJ did attend this meeting, it makes Madeline Brown's story of LBJ's forewarning to her of JFK's death the next day just possible enough to not dismiss it completely IMO.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Joe Bauer]

1 hour ago, David Andrews said:

1) Do we know how long May Newman lived in the US?  Did she have other employers before the Murchison family?

2) She never listened to a radio while in the US?  It created a generation of illiterate Hoover fans and "junior G-Men."

3) I'm not sure Hoover would get a mention in an "International Relations" course abroad.

4) "University of Dublin" - do we know she's from southern Ireland?

You know that Oswald guy?  You can probably assume he's a communist, too.

I wish I knew the answers to your May Newman questions David Andrews.

Unfortunately I do not.

Most here feel the May Newman story is not even worth time and energy discussing.

That even if there was some Murchison stepson arranged get together the evening before JFK was killed the next day just miles away in Dallas, that this meeting had nothing of importance to do with the assassination.

However, any news about what these world's wealthiest, hugely influential and connected ( to lettered agencies, Mafia, Cubans and extreme right wing groups) and venomously JFK hating Texas power individuals were doing just before, during and right after JFK was butchered right in their own back yard is of interest to me.

Be it personally placing JFK WANTED FOR TREASON flyers on parked car windshields ( H.L.Hunt himself? ) or celebrating JFK's death with champagne and caviar flowing for like a week after.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2017 by Joe Bauer

[Andrew Prutsok]

22 hours ago, David Andrews said:

  Hoover was pretty much the ne plus ultra of law enforcement in the public mind.

Except where organized crime was concerned which, I believe, he refused to admit even existed.

[Joe Bauer]

On 9/5/2017 at 10:14 PM, Joe Bauer said:

David Andrews, I don't know anything about May Newman's early personal background but I "assume" she was born and raised in Ireland.

Her accent sure indicates such.

And she remained a "seamstress and companion" all of her 36 years working as a domestic for Virginia Murchison.

That would indicate to me that Ms. Newman probably wasn't highly educated and perhaps even poor growing up in Ireland.

And from her age appearance in the TMWKK documentary video ( which was what ... almost 40 years after 1963? )  and with Newman claiming she had only started working for Virginia Murchison 1 or 2 years previous to 11, 21, 1963, she must have been a fairly young woman at that time.

So, you have a young woman raised in another country and who obviously wasn't studying "International Relations" at the University Of Dublin.

J. Edgar Hoover was someone a young person raised poor in Ireland like Newman might easily have never heard about in her daily circles and discussions there. Hence, her claim of not knowing who Hoover was seems logically believable. 

Thought I'd bump this older thread which was a very interesting one imo.

[Marcus Fuller]

Is it possible that although LBJ might not have had particular designs on becoming President, he preferred that outcome to the one involving his career being ruined and possible jail time?

We only have to look back through human history to see that often times when a leader was permanently removed from their position the person who replaced them was usually responsible in one way or another. 

[Michael Griffith]

On 8/28/2017 at 5:37 PM, Douglas Caddy said:

Joan Mellen did not debunk LBJ’s complicity in JFK’s assassination

By David Denton

Olney Central College

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B_l9QjzWCflIcml2RHdwZHRnZ1E/view

I do not rule out LBJ as a suspect. However, if LBJ was part of the plot, or if he knew about it but did nothing, he was a very good actor on the day of the shooting. Many people who saw him that afternoon said he looked and acted like he was very frightened. Also, he seemed to be sincere when he asked Hoover if any of the shots had been directed at him when the two spoke shortly after the assassination. But he could have been putting on an act.

I am surprised that Denton uses the unbelievable Madeleine Brown as a source. Brown claimed she attended a party at Clint Murchison's home the evening before the assassination, and that LBJ, J. Edgar Hoover, Richard Nixon, H. L. Hunt, and John McCloy were there, among others. She also claimed that during that evening, LBJ told her that "after tomorrow" the Kennedys would never embarrass him again. This lady was clearly a fraud.

When her son filed a paternity suit to establish his mother's alleged death-bed claim that LBJ was his father, the Johnson family called his bluff, and he never showed up in court to arrange for the paternity test. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Michael Griffith

[Joe Bauer]

Many years ago I copied and posted on the forum a You Tube accessed taped conversation between LBJ and several of his most inner circle vanguard aides. Maybe Abe Fortas and Bill Moyers included?

This was before the 1964 election I believe.

In this conversation you can clearly hear a very worked up LBJ imploring his men to jump on two seriously threatening problems at hand.

One was the growing scandal regarding his long-time aide Walter Jenkins and the other was about business dealings of LBJ back in his home state regards charges being made about his business dealings there being less than up and up?  Forgot the specific details.

But at one point one can clearly hear LBJ bellowing to his team that if they didn't get a handle on these matters, they could possibly effect his upcoming election standing and ( the Texas business dealings one ) could maybe even land him in jail!

It was a remarkable conversation. And when I came across the link I noticed it had only been accessed little more than 1,000 times. It's obscureness surprised me.

I've searched and searched all my old posting archives and that one just seems to have disappeared.

The reason I found that particular recorded conversation between LBJ and his damage control team so important was that it proved how just how concerned LBJ was regards investigations into his business dealings in Texas ( telling his aides he could possibly go to jail? ) going way back into the 50's and maybe even earlier.

Which bolsters the premise some have postulated that LBJ was more motivated to have wanted JFK and RFK out of the picture more so than not due to his real concerns about investigations into his reportedly illegal business doings. 

A few of our most esteemed JFKA researchers here on the forum responded that they too found this taped interview very interesting and had never heard it before.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Joe Bauer