The Finger Finally Points to Pentagon Chief Lemnitzer

[Jeff Carter]

William Polk, who served in the Kennedy administration during the Cuban Missile Crisis, recently reviewed the competing pressures the crisis induced as a means to analyze the current crisis over North Korea. He determines that JFK identified Lemnitzer as the most powerful hawk of the Joint Chiefs, and that Lemnitzer’s Operation Northwoods plan “could easily have been turned into a coup d’etat. Kennedy removed Lemnitzer as far from Washington as he could (to Europe to be the NATO commander).”

“…not long afterwards, (JFK) was assassinated by persons, forces, or interests about whom and whose motivation there is still much controversy. At minimum, we know that powerful people, including Lemnitzer, thought Kennedy had sold out national interest in pursuit of the interest of his administration.”

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/09/05/on-the-brink-of-nuclear-war/

[George Sawtelle]

Jeff

William Douglas, author of "The Unspeakable", says Kennedy's assassination was an Operation Nothwoods event.

Operation Northwoods was not Lymnitzer's idea. It became reality basically from what Eisenhower said when he was asked why he hadn't taken out Castro. He said he would remove Castro but he needed a pretext.

Lymnitzer did promote Operation Northwoods and he may have been the most powerful hawk among the JCS, but plotting to kill Kennedy and then executing a plan to do it is on another, different level.

Lymnitzer was Eisenhower's sycophant. He made sure Ike was in agreement with all that he did. If Eisenhower asked him to back a coup against Kennedy I'm sure he would . I doubt he would be needed to do anything else.  

[Paul Brancato]

13 hours ago, Jeff Carter said:

William Polk, who served in the Kennedy administration during the Cuban Missile Crisis, recently reviewed the competing pressures the crisis induced as a means to analyze the current crisis over North Korea. He determines that JFK identified Lemnitzer as the most powerful hawk of the Joint Chiefs, and that Lemnitzer’s Operation Northwoods plan “could easily have been turned into a coup d’etat. Kennedy removed Lemnitzer as far from Washington as he could (to Europe to be the NATO commander).”

“…not long afterwards, (JFK) was assassinated by persons, forces, or interests about whom and whose motivation there is still much controversy. At minimum, we know that powerful people, including Lemnitzer, thought Kennedy had sold out national interest in pursuit of the interest of his administration.”

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/09/05/on-the-brink-of-nuclear-war/

Agree Jeff. 

George - read 'Gladio'. You seem to think Lemnitzer was Eisenhower's footstool. Operation Northwoods became the template for all that was to follow, and Europe was the battleground, for the simple reason that Communism was no threat here, but a major threat, in the eyes  of Dulles, Lemnitzer, etc. in Europe. The incorporation of Nazis and their ideology into our national security apparatus after the war was with this aim in mind. 

We should not be so quick to dismiss JFK's fears of a military coup. And as Talbot pointed out in The Devil's Chessboard, DeGaulle, who was nearly assassinated himself, thought that those same fascist forces succeeded in killing JFK. 

[Guest]

16 hours ago, George Sawtelle said:

Lymnitzer did promote Operation Northwoods and he may have been the most powerful hawk among the JCS, but plotting to kill Kennedy and then executing a plan to do it is on another, different level.

Well, I don't know ... I'm no Operation Northwoods expert, although I did read the Wikipedia article and sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.  Certainly what was proposed was at a level of Dr. Strangelove lunacy.  Once the plan was vetoed by JFK, how much of a stretch would it have been for someone to suggest "Hey, you know what would be the ultimate Operation Northwoods event?"  Certainly the scenario has all the elements: "the Cuban connection" that I feel sure underlies the assassination regardless of whether one is a Lone Nutter, a Small Scale Conspiracy Theorist or a Grand Scale Conspiracy Theorist ... a plan that from the get-go involved some extreme violence and wild "out of the box" thinking (to put it mildly) ... and military characters at the highest level who were furious at JFK and capable of accomplishing pretty much anything they wanted to accomplish.

The problem I always have with anything bigger than a Small Scale Conspiracy is:  How did an unlikely character like LHO become part of it?  I could easily see a small anti-Castro group (perhaps involving rogue military or CIA participants) deciding after LHO returned from Russia that "this guy is right out of central casting to serve as the perfect patsy for shifting suspicion to Castro or at least pro-Castro forces," but I have difficulty seeing any grand, high-level conspiracy thinking it needed someone like LHO (unless, as Grand Scale Conspiracy Theorists always do, you reinvent LHO as someone much more mysterious and significant than I believe the evidence will support).  If the assassination had been put in motion by someone of the level of Gen. Lymnitzer with all his military and ex-military connections, would involving a character like LHO and his Mannlicher-Carcano have been worth the risk of whatever purpose it served?  Surely Operation Northwoods itself would have involved planted evidence pointing toward Castro that was a lot more sophisticated, reliable and compelling than LHO and his non-trusty Carcano.

Edited September 11, 2017 by Guest

[David Josephs]

1 hour ago, Lance Payette said:

How did an unlikely character like LHO become part of it?

The same way Arthur Valle "would" have...  he was chosen based on his activities which from one POV can be seen as developing bona-fides for Cuban group infiltration while from another POV we can see the step by step positioning of the man should he be needed as the patsy.  With plots stopped in both Tampa and Chicago only weeks before, Oswald was certainly not the only object of interest for a patsy... 

Yet we are to remember Alvarado's story in Mexico...  Oswald was part of a Cuban conspiracy tying all the parties together... yet that now had to change to a LONE NUT.

The real wholesale reason the evidence ALL incriminates Oswald is because he didn't do it and it all HAD to... there could be no other confederates running around...

Take Oswald out of the equation and JFK still gets killed before he leaves TX...  

I'd highly suggest reading FALSE MYSTERY.  Salandria sees thru the BS within hours it appears...  and he sat with Fonzi to talk about it.

            "I'm afraid we were misled," Salandria said sadly.  "All the critics, myself included, were misled very early.  I see that now.  We spent too much time and effort micro-analyzing the details of the assassination when all the time it was obvious, it was blatantly obvious that it was a conspiracy.  Don't you think that the men who killed Kennedy had the means to do it in the most sophisticated and subtle way?  They chose not to.  Instead, they picked the shooting gallery that was Dealey Plaza and did it in the most barbarous and openly arrogant manner.  The cover story was transparent and designed not to hold, to fall apart at the slightest scrutiny.  The forces that killed Kennedy wanted the message clear:  'We are in control and no one -- not the President, nor Congress, nor any elected official -- no one can do anything about it.'  It was a message to the people that their government was powerless.  And the people eventually got the message.  Consider what has happened since the Kennedy assassination.  People see government today as unresponsive to their needs, yet the budget and power of the military and intelligence establishment have increased tremendously.

            "The tyranny of power is here.  Current events tell us that those who killed Kennedy can only perpetuate their power by* promoting social upheaval both at home and abroad.  And that will lead not to revolution but to repression.  I suggest to you, my friend, that the interests of those who killed Kennedy now transcend national boundaries and national priorities.  No doubt we  are dealing now with an international conspiracy.  We must face that fact -- and not waste any more time micro-analyzing the evidence.  That's exactly what they want us to do.  They have kept us busy for so long.  And I will bet, buddy, that is what will happen to you.  They'll keep you very, very busy and, eventually, they'll wear you down."

[Chuck Schwartz]

More on Lemay (from the JFKFacts website).."

While General LeMay’s most recent biographer claims he was hunting in Michigan when the assassination occurred, he clearly was not.

 

“The ‘Chuck Holmes’ Air Force logbook from Andrews AFB obtained by the ARRB reveals that LeMay was in Toronto, in Canada, on the day of the assassination—not in Michigan. The logbook reveals that the flight dispatched to pick him up was originally sent to Toronto, not to any location in Michigan.

 

“While en route to Canada, the VIP flight was diverted to Wiarton (pronounced “wire-ton”), a different Canadian site, which Bill Kelly’s research has revealed was a commando training base in WW II. (It’s spelling was incorrect in the Andrews log—recorded as “Wairton”—but the intent and meaning was clear. For some reason, LeMay wanted to be picked up at a remote site.)

 

“We don’t know what LeMay was doing in Canada, but he did not take his aide with him. Colonel Dorman’s surviving family menbers told Bill Kelly that this was the one and only trip when LeMay did not take his aide with him. Apparently, LeMay felt it necessary to lie to his family and associates about his whereabouts that day, otherwise his family and associates would not have fed the false information about a Michigan hunting trip to his biographer.

 

Where did LeMay go?

 

 

“Furthermore, LeMay’s aircraft landed at Washington’s National Airport, instead of at Andrews AFB as had been ordered by the Secretary of the Air Force. The Chuck Holmes logbook reveals that LeMay disobeyed orders that day, and we don’t know why.

 

“But we do know, from the logbook, that LeMay’s aircraft landed at DCA (National Airport) at 5:12 PM—more than one hour and fifteen minutes prior to the time JFK’s body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:35 PM. And the Clifton tapes reveal to us that his aide, Colonel Dorman, was frantically attempting to speak to him on the radio while LeMay was en route to DCA, but was unsuccessful.

Gen. Curtis LeMay

Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay.

 

Did LeMay attend JFK’s autopsy?

 

“Navy Petty Officer Paul K. O’Connor—a hospital corpsman whose job it was to assist the pathologists at the autopsy—recounted consistently over the years that when he was ordered by the chief pathologist at the autopsy to tell whoever was smoking in the morgue to put out their cigar, he walked over to the gallery and discovered that the offender was Air Force Chief of Staff Curtis LeMay. LeMay contemptuously blew cigar smoke in O’Connor’s face, and of course, refused to extinguish his cigar.

 

“This is a good example of how a multidisciplinary approach to research bears great dividends. Neither the Clifton Air Force One tapes, nor the Andrews logbook, nor Paul O’Connor’s recollections, can tell us the complete story; but together, we can piece together a significant event on 11/22/63: Curtis LeMay was present at JFK’s autopsy to gloat over the death of his nemesis, and in going there, he disobeyed the orders of his nominal superior, the Secretary of the Air Force, Eugene Zuckert.

 

“I am proud of the part the ARRB, and my Military Records Team, played in obtaining the Chuck Holmes logbook, for it is the heart of this story. The new dimension about the frustration of LeMay’s aide, Colonel Dorman, comes to us from the Clifton tapes. It certainly makes the basic story even more intriguing. And I believe Paul O’Connor. He told me that story himself back in 1998.”"

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

12 minutes ago, Chuck Schwartz said:

More on Lemay (from the JFKFacts website).."

While General LeMay’s most recent biographer claims he was hunting in Michigan when the assassination occurred, he clearly was not.

 

“The ‘Chuck Holmes’ Air Force logbook from Andrews AFB obtained by the ARRB reveals that LeMay was in Toronto, in Canada, on the day of the assassination—not in Michigan. The logbook reveals that the flight dispatched to pick him up was originally sent to Toronto, not to any location in Michigan.

 

“While en route to Canada, the VIP flight was diverted to Wiarton (pronounced “wire-ton”), a different Canadian site, which Bill Kelly’s research has revealed was a commando training base in WW II. (It’s spelling was incorrect in the Andrews log—recorded as “Wairton”—but the intent and meaning was clear. For some reason, LeMay wanted to be picked up at a remote site.)

 

“We don’t know what LeMay was doing in Canada, but he did not take his aide with him. Colonel Dorman’s surviving family menbers told Bill Kelly that this was the one and only trip when LeMay did not take his aide with him. Apparently, LeMay felt it necessary to lie to his family and associates about his whereabouts that day, otherwise his family and associates would not have fed the false information about a Michigan hunting trip to his biographer.

 

Where did LeMay go?

 

 

“Furthermore, LeMay’s aircraft landed at Washington’s National Airport, instead of at Andrews AFB as had been ordered by the Secretary of the Air Force. The Chuck Holmes logbook reveals that LeMay disobeyed orders that day, and we don’t know why.

 

“But we do know, from the logbook, that LeMay’s aircraft landed at DCA (National Airport) at 5:12 PM—more than one hour and fifteen minutes prior to the time JFK’s body arrived at Bethesda Naval Hospital at 6:35 PM. And the Clifton tapes reveal to us that his aide, Colonel Dorman, was frantically attempting to speak to him on the radio while LeMay was en route to DCA, but was unsuccessful.

Gen. Curtis LeMay

Air Force Gen. Curtis LeMay.

 

Did LeMay attend JFK’s autopsy?

 

“Navy Petty Officer Paul K. O’Connor—a hospital corpsman whose job it was to assist the pathologists at the autopsy—recounted consistently over the years that when he was ordered by the chief pathologist at the autopsy to tell whoever was smoking in the morgue to put out their cigar, he walked over to the gallery and discovered that the offender was Air Force Chief of Staff Curtis LeMay. LeMay contemptuously blew cigar smoke in O’Connor’s face, and of course, refused to extinguish his cigar.

 

“This is a good example of how a multidisciplinary approach to research bears great dividends. Neither the Clifton Air Force One tapes, nor the Andrews logbook, nor Paul O’Connor’s recollections, can tell us the complete story; but together, we can piece together a significant event on 11/22/63: Curtis LeMay was present at JFK’s autopsy to gloat over the death of his nemesis, and in going there, he disobeyed the orders of his nominal superior, the Secretary of the Air Force, Eugene Zuckert.

 

“I am proud of the part the ARRB, and my Military Records Team, played in obtaining the Chuck Holmes logbook, for it is the heart of this story. The new dimension about the frustration of LeMay’s aide, Colonel Dorman, comes to us from the Clifton tapes. It certainly makes the basic story even more intriguing. And I believe Paul O’Connor. He told me that story himself back in 1998.”"

 

 

Chuck - Thanks for the details missing in a recent post of mine. So LeMay lied about his hunting vacation, and then was picked up in Toronto and flown to Washingtom National Airport. Am I correct that this airport was close to Bethesda than Andrews AFB? Colonel Dornan is heard on the Clifton tapes frantically trying to find LeMay, a detail that was excised from the LBJ library version of the AF 1 tapes. Then you say he was unsuccessful. Do we know that? The Clifton tapes are considerably longer than the previous version, but still very incomplete. So the fact that the Clifton tapes don't reveal a successful conclusion to Dornan's efforts doesn't necessarily mean he failed to do so. Is there other evidence that supports your statement? Were you quoting Bill Kelly? I had assumed that Dornan was trying to reach LeMay to inform him of the change of autopsy location. But since Dornan was not on AF 1 that might be a stretch. Do we know where Dornan was while trying to reach LeMay?

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

On 9/8/2017 at 10:13 AM, Steve Thomas said:

Paul,

 

I think I tend to agree with you.

 

Lately, I've been speculating lately on "revenge as motive" for the hit on JFK.

Not so much for what he "might" do with respect to getting out of Vietnam, or eliminating the oil depletion allowance, etc., but for what JFK "had" done; and looking at the people who had been "exiled to the frontier". So far, I've come up with Lyman Lemnitzer and William King Harvey, who was transferred to Rome after the Cuban Missile Crisis. Remember his handwritten ZR/Rifle to use Corsicans rather than Mafia. Being CIA Station Chief in Rome would make him pretty well positioned to find some.

I think they sat out there in the boondocks and stewed.

In ancient Roman times, wasn't it the generals who had been banished to Gaul who were always stirring up trouble, with this legion or that legion always seemingly ready to "cross the Rubicon" at any moment?

 

Although they weren't exiled, I'd add Allen Dulles and Charles Cabell, who were forced into retirement rather than banished to the frontier.

 

Anybody else you can think of that fit this bill?

 

As far as the Army Reserve Colonels, I think they were more "boots on the ground" than anything; the "mechanics" of how it went down.

 

Steve Thomas

Steve,

Concerning your comment about Corsicans rather than Mafia, Is there a handwritten note from Harvey?

Since looking at the photo of the three tramps, focusing on Harold Doyle who seems to have the imprint of a butt rifle on the left lapel of his Jacket; I tend to believe that American Patriots loyal to Lansdale or Lemnitzer were the foot soldiers who assassinated JFK.  FYI - This cropped image of Harold Doyle is from the Sixth Floor Museum in Dallas.  You can visit the site and see for yourself - http://emuseum.jfk.org/view/objects/asitem/search@/4/title-asc?t:state:flow=51855fef-d40f-4b0c-9eda-bbfd661f7596

Harold Doyle, according to Win Dankbaar's post, was an Army veteran.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by Keyvan Shahrdar

[Steve Thomas]

1 hour ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Steve,

Concerning your comment about Corsicans rather than Mafia, Is there a handwritten note from Harvey?

 

Keyvan,

 

On William Harvey's notes on the ZRRIFLE Project:

The handwritten note here:

https://www.memresearch.org/econ/zrrifle.jpg

 

A typed version here beginning on p. 216 (see p. 218):

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=gaCkmaLbVQUC&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=William+Harvey+handwritten+notes+ZR+RIFLE&source=bl&ots=8lcnJnXJO0&sig=A_M6rmsM6wYlhb4Cj_wtHvub6YM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi69J_HwqDWAhXJSCYKHV-5DGQQ6AEIRjAJ#v=onepage&q=William%20Harvey%20handwritten%20notes%20ZR%20RIFLE&f=false

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

[Paul Brancato]

24 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

Keyvan,

 

On William Harvey's notes on the ZRRIFLE Project:

The handwritten note here:

https://www.memresearch.org/econ/zrrifle.jpg

 

A typed version here beginning on p. 216 (see p. 218):

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=gaCkmaLbVQUC&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=William+Harvey+handwritten+notes+ZR+RIFLE&source=bl&ots=8lcnJnXJO0&sig=A_M6rmsM6wYlhb4Cj_wtHvub6YM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi69J_HwqDWAhXJSCYKHV-5DGQQ6AEIRjAJ#v=onepage&q=William%20Harvey%20handwritten%20notes%20ZR%20RIFLE&f=false

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

Thanks Steve - an amazing document which I have read previously but never ceases to shock. If you are following the related thread on the ultra right, I just posted something which intersects with this document, though I did not mention Harvey.

i wanted to ask you a question about HL Hunt. According to the articles just posted by Doug Caddy, Hunt was taken to Mexico immediately after the assassination. Have you heard that before? If so do you know where he went? I'm sure you can guess why I ask - Brandstetter (Crichton's crony and fellow Army Colonel) and Phillipe de Vosjoli, former (at that time) head of French Intelligence in the US, hanging out in Mexico at the same time. Big country I know, but hey, worth asking about anyway. Hunt, like Walker an immediate suspect as ringleader before the Oswald patsy program sucked up all the air, surely as right wing as anyone and Walker's backer.

[Chuck Schwartz]

Paul my last post was a direct quote from the JFKFacts website-Doug Horne was the author of the post. The only question I can answer is the Washington Airport is about a half hour drive to Bethesda.

[Paul Brancato]

Thanks Chuck. Doug Horne is trustworthy source in my opinion.

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

14 hours ago, Steve Thomas said:

Keyvan,

 

On William Harvey's notes on the ZRRIFLE Project:

The handwritten note here:

https://www.memresearch.org/econ/zrrifle.jpg

 

A typed version here beginning on p. 216 (see p. 218):

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=gaCkmaLbVQUC&pg=PA214&lpg=PA214&dq=William+Harvey+handwritten+notes+ZR+RIFLE&source=bl&ots=8lcnJnXJO0&sig=A_M6rmsM6wYlhb4Cj_wtHvub6YM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi69J_HwqDWAhXJSCYKHV-5DGQQ6AEIRjAJ#v=onepage&q=William%20Harvey%20handwritten%20notes%20ZR%20RIFLE&f=false

 

Steve Thomas

 

 

 

Steve,

Thank you.  Is there a version of this handwritten note that is not redacted?  There seems to be a block redacted in the top middle.

Keyvan

[Steve Thomas]

6 hours ago, Keyvan Shahrdar said:

Steve,

Thank you.  Is there a version of this handwritten note that is not redacted?  There seems to be a block redacted in the top middle.

Keyvan

Kevyn,

 

On p. 214 of the book I cited above (American Heart of Darkness), the author says that only 9 pages out of 43 have survived, and that some sections were blacked out in one version, and not in others.

 

A fuller copy of the handwritten notes can be found on the Mary Ferrell site here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=66058&search=ZRRIFle#relPageId=2&tab=page

 

Another version of the typed transcription can be found here:

https://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg05640.html

 

One thing you could do is open two tabs, one with the handwritten copy, and one with the typed transcription and compare them side by side.

 

You might be interested in reading:

Church Committee: Interim Report - Alleged Assassination Plots Involving Foreign Leaders

beginning on page 183 here:

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=1156&relPageId=197&search=William_Harvey

The Senators question Harvey about his notes.

 

Steve Thomas

[Keyvan Shahrdar]

8 minutes ago, Steve Thomas said:

 

 

Another version of the typed transcription can be found here:

https://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg05640.html

 

 

 

Thank You, Steve.  It is worth mentioning in the typed transcript of WH's notes he wrote - 

5. Cover: planning should include provision for blaming Soviets or
Czechs in case of blow.

In my opinion, if these elements were involved in the Assassination of JFK, there was a concerted effort to have Russian ties to LHO in Dallas;  Mexico City, Mohrenschildt(Russian), Ruth Paine (Spoke Russian), Ruby(Russian), Zapruder(Russian).  Seems that pointing the finger at Russia was in the cards.