Guest Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32175532.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) The following is not my opinion but the result of years of research on the subject started because of one statement in the LOPEZ report: Hoover spent enormous resources and "capital" to CYA for the CIA by offering "evidence" that Oswald took the trip so even though the voice and photo do not match Oswald, he was STILL considered to have been down there. And then in January 1964 Hoover reveals his understanding of the "false story of Oswald's trip to Mexico". There is simply insufficient evidence available to confirm the that the man Ruby shot was the man at the Cuban & Soviet Compounds in Mexico City There is more than sufficient evidence in the FBI files showing the bus trip offered did not include Oswald as a passenger. There is CIA and only CIA evidence that an Oswald crossed the border in a car and left in a car but very little other info about the event There is NO EVIDENCE of Oswald in Mexico City outside of the Cuban & Soviet Compounds despite extensive searches which were not discussed in the WCR Putting Oswald into that room with Duran and Azcue on the 27th with first acknowledging all the evidence against that being true - is to severely mislead readers about what occurred before Sept 27 and after Oct 1st. Whitten tells Slawson that if they need to get into Mexico City unnoticed, he can arrange that.... so theoretically, Oswald most certainly could have been the person in front of Duran/Azcue... Azcue tells us this person was in a day or 2 BEFORE the 27th (date of the application)... why don't people who discuss this assuming it was Oswald, mention this? Or that the man photos who was given the temp ID of Oswald, also was photographed on the 15th of Oct.... Bottom line: There are no photos of Oswald, no voice records of Oswald, first-hand accounts of Oswald witnesses that were ALL debunked: the PAZ party never happened, Oswald and Duran never happened (Oswald was not there) first -hand witnesses say it was not the man Ruby shot FBI SA CB PECK issues reports all thru Nov 1963 naming over 20 assets in Mexico looking for traces of Oswald - none.. FBI checks with the Gobernacion, Immigration and it turns up negative for ANY travel documentation on Oswald or any variation there of - yet then is the main source for each and every item of evidence Turned up a CIA report from the recent doc dump that states US Immigration records are pure junk and we need to get the info from Mexico... except by the date of this - Nov 25 - the CIA had already established his travel in and out by car.... HARVEY CASH tells FBI SA CHAPMAN that they do NOT know the mode of transportation on 11/24... yet seems to hold the info until the 27th.. here is the start of the cover-up or change to Lone Nut CASH is given info supposedly from the FM-11 which is the master immigration record for all tourists crossing the border... problem being the FM-11 was also in the hands of a single FBI asset and was, according to assistants of this man, "amended by "XXX" for clarity"... This memo from KLINE to LESTER JOHNSON below left is one of the more important docs involved.. It establishes a number of things: Info from Mexico re: the Oswald trip is acquired on Saturday less than 24 hours after the assassination. Mexican "authorities" (DFS) saw this as their investigation with no info going to the FBI (no word about the CIA) Info would need to be obtained thru the American Consulate in N.L. (State department) CASH in N.L. has information culled - again within 24 hours - from Mexican Immigration's FM-11 and typed up Entering Mexico the man is OSWALD, Lee Harvey... (L.H. Oswald) Leaving Mexico he is LEE, Harvey Oswald (O.H. Lee) why does this matter? For the entire trip he is referred to as Harvey Oswald Lee; Mr. Lee or O.H. Lee. Yet when it came time to alphabetize for the FM-11 a strange thing happens Mr. LEE is alphabetized after M and before P... https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh24/html/WH_Vol24_0300a.htm #806 coincidentally is BUELL MOORE, #807 Harvey Oswald LEE, #808 MAURICE OUELLET That means the alphabetical position is for OSWALD, not LEE... one of those devil details which reveals to me an awareness of the man's real name... and basically a stupid oversight left in the record The memo above is recalling events on Nov 23rd. The "American Ambassador's office" had provided a detailed report... here is that report We begin to see how the Department of STATE and the CIA are lock-step on this... I find the very last sentence before the signature on page 2 pretty interesting as well. STATE is also pitching the CASTRO angle at this point... Sop here we have what I see as full blown Phase 1: Castro Conspiracy... ALVARADO would show up at the US consulate in Mexico to tell his story on the 26th... Right up until Dec 9th when the FBI delivers it's report, Hoover did NOT want to restrict this to only one man, Oswald for one and only one reason: Mexico. page 2 Memorandum for Messers. Tolson, Belmont, Mohr Conrad, Deloach, Evans, Rosen, Sullivan December 12, 1963 it up with the White House and the President agreed with me that we should reach no conclusion; nevertheless the report does reach two conclusions in substance. I said I personally believe Oswald was the assassin; that the second aspect as to whether he was the only man gives me great concern; that we have several letters, not in the report because we were not able to prove it, written to him from Cuba referring to the job he was going to do, his good marksmanship, and stating when it was all over he would be brought back to Cuba and presented to the chief; but we do not know if the chief was Castro and cannot make an investigation because we have no intelligence operation in Cuba; that I did not put this into the report because we did not have proof of it and didn't want to put speculation in the report; that this was the reason I urged strongly that we not reach conclusion Oswald was the only man. The report on the 9th had already contradicted him stating" On the contrary, the data developed strongly indicates that he acted on his own initiative or impulse with little advance planning... for a look into what that "advance planning" may have looked like... https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/oswald-on-november-22-1963 Edited August 22, 2023 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 16 minutes ago, Craig Carvalho said: Hello Paul, sorry for the delay. I began to write a response to your query last night, but it got late, (I start my day at 3 a.m.). There are two aspects to this Paul... the paper trail and the monitoring. The CIA's first official notification of Oswald's defection came in the form of a telephone call on Monday, November 1, 1959 from FBI CIA liaison officer Sam Papich to Associate Deputy Director of Operations for Counterintelligence (ADDOCI), James Angleton. Why Papich would choose Angleton's direct office line is another subject of some controversy, but we may certainly assume that the monitoring began immediately thereafter. During the Warren Commission's investigation the CIA had maintained that it was unable to pinpoint the date(s) of their receipt of the many Oswald memorandums being digested by the various agencies that would have a "need to know" in the first week following Oswald's defection. We now know that U.S. consular Richard Snyder's second, lengthier memo on Oswald, that arrived at the Sate Department on November 6, was at the CIA by Friday, November 13. Although the document's cover sheet is missing, it does include a documents list which was parenthetically dated, "[Received in CIA on 13 Nov 59]". In the upper right hand corner of the document is written "'O'Neal". The chief of CI/SIG at that time was James Angleton's boss Birch D. O'Neal. Paul - if there are any dates or documents that you have a particular interest in I will do my best to provide you with any available info I have. Regards, Craig C. Craig, Thanks. In my opinion all of this is very normal -- if a 19-year old boy reportedly seemed to defect to the USSR from the Marines' Atsugi Air Force Base in Japan, then of course the CIA would be intensely interested at the highest level. Who WAS this boy? What were his INTENTIONS? It certainly does not suggest to me that the CIA had any sort of plot with regard to Lee Harvey Oswald -- their intense scrutiny is simply normal because of their charter in monitoring Soviet activity in the International field. Regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H.L Arledge Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Paul Trejo said: Sylvia's first testimony in 1963 was her best testimony. Paul, I completely agree with you here. Until I'm proven wrong, I am of the opinion that the man in Mexico was indeed Lee Harvey Oswald and that he was anxious to get into Cuba—not Russia. If you concur, I'm curious as to your thoughts on the other location where Oswald was reported to be around this time. Do you believe the testimony of the other Sylvia—Silvia Odio? Regards, HL Edited November 17, 2017 by H.L Arledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 16 minutes ago, H.L Arledge said: I completely agree with you here. Until I'm proven wrong, I am of the opinion that the man in Mexico was indeed Lee Harvey Oswald If you are truly interested in being proven wrong, the rest of this thread and these articles should help... Maybe you can tell me... why are these two signature so different? They were supposedly signed within seconds of each other. https://kennedysandking.com/content/the-evidence-is-the-conspiracy-index The Mexico City Trip Part 1 Part 2 - The Trip Down, Part 1 Part 3 - The Trip Down, Part 2 Part 4 - Leaving Mexico, Part 1 Part 5 - Leaving Mexico, Part 2 Part 6 - Who Knew What and When Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, H.L Arledge said: Paul, I completely agree with you here. Until I'm proven wrong, I am of the opinion that the man in Mexico was indeed Lee Harvey Oswald and that he was anxious to get into Cuba—not Russia. If you concur, I'm curious as to your thoughts on the other location where Oswald was reported to be around this time. Do you believe the testimony of the other Sylvia—Silvia Odio? Regards, HL HL, Yes, I also believe that Oswald was a passenger in a car on or around Thursday 26 September 1963 in Dallas enroute to Mexico City. There were two Latino males with him -- a Cuban-American from Kansas, and a Mexican-American from Los Angeles. I believe the Cuban-American knew the next-door neighbor of Sylvia Odio in Dallas. IIRC, his name was Kiki Masferrer. I believe that Masferrer gave this traveling trio information about Sylvia, e.g. that she and her father were in JURE, and that her father was imprisoned by Fidel Castro. I believe that on their way to Mexico, they stopped at her home to fake their way into her heart. Their goal was to learn the name of any JURE supporter in Cuba who could be a SPONSOR to Lee Harvey Oswald, to facilitate his goal of an instant Visa into Cuba. Sylvia Odio refused to allow them into her home. She later wrote to her father and asked if these men sounded familiar to him. He wrote back, no, stay away from them. I believe her, and I think Gaeton Fonzi was on the right track -- but he failed to get to the bottom of this. I believe Harry Dean's account is the most convincing so far. Mexican Immigration records state that Lee Harvey Oswald entered and exited Mexico as a passenger in a car. The FBI/WC fib that Oswald traveled to Mexico City by bus is easily disproven. Finally, I believe that the FBI has the FULL story about this -- and that the CIA has NO CLUE about it. Whitten, for example, is totally clueless. Regards, --Paul Trejo Edited November 18, 2017 by Paul Trejo typos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Yes Paul, that's what the records state... so tell us why CASH lies about it to the Dept of Immigration on Nov 23rd? How does the CIA - or anyone, say you for that matter - prove he took a car? Other than the CIA claiming so as a result of... what Paul? Why does the CIA conclude he took a car? Please provide sources... I for one have had enough of your posts which start "IN MY OPINION" and then go on to talk of facts and conclusions as if they were support by something... what is the basis for these opinions? Did you do some research... did you finally talk to Bill Simpich about how you consistently misrepresent what he wrote and what he meant ? WHO provided these Mexican Immigration records? Do you have ANY idea? Do you have ANY idea what was done to these records by this FBI asset prior to them going to Amer Consul CASH to FBI SA CHAPMAN via TIJERINA? Do you even know who HERRERA is and why he is talking about the FM-11? Ya see Paul, you come up with these OPINIONS yet they are only based on things that occur in your mind - not from any source of evidence or reasoning... That you preface with MY OPINION changes very little about your approach and lack of corroboration... Fact is, most of what you OPINE is based upon provably incorrect assertions made years ago... like Walker and Oswald being somehow connected. And what's that? Sept. 16th? a typo? and what was it that Alvarado said and continued to stick to his guns about? the date of Sept 17th... If you'd take a second just to acknowledge what you don't know and have yet to prove to anyone - maybe you'd find yourself posting ANALYSIS and RESEARCH instead of opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Carvalho Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) David, I didn't see this post until today when going back to find Paul T.'s post. In it you write... "So I ask a basic question... if, on Oct 1st the CIA took a photo of Oswald in Mexico at these consulates.... and the CIA wants to connect him with KOSTIKOV, how would his photo be detrimental to the effort?" This is an assumption on your part David, not without some validity I will admit. Truth be told, we still don't know exactly what operation the CIA, (specifically Angleton), may have been running in Mexico City during this time period. To me, this is the key element that is missing, especially in light of the fact that it occurred before the assassination. It would explain why the CIA wanted Oswald's participation, whether wittingly or unwittingly, kept "out of the loop"... even from Win Scott. As to your question regarding DeMohrenshildt... after emigrating to the U.S. in 1938 DeM began working for the Shumaker Co. in New York. The chief of export there was a man by the name of Pierre Fraiss. Fraiss was connected to French intelligence. The two of them became friends, and soon DeM was working directly for Fraiss collecting information on people involved in pro-German activities. This "side-line" required DeM to travel extensively within the U.S.. Part of this intelligence operation involved contacting domestic oil companies urging them to sell oil to the French at competitive prices against German oil supplies during WWII. Edited November 17, 2017 by Craig Carvalho spelling "to WS" to "from WS" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Sawtelle Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 Brendan We all we know the CIA always has a back up plan in case the original plan goes south on them. They also have a cover-up plan that is to be implemented as soon as the dirty deed is complete (dirty deed = covert operation). So if the CIA alters documents sent to the US and the country which sends the documents to the US starts to squak about the CIA altering documents the CIA is ready to start their cover-up plan asap. 1. National newspapers like the Wash Post and the New York Times would order their reporters to write articles favoring the CIA position on the documents and criticizing the country which sent the documents as commies, fascist, violators of human rights or rogue. Dispicable and disparaging articles about the country. This is done to influence the american people and place the country in a negative light. 2. A full court press by the CIA would be placed on European governments, government officials, newspapers, and economic leaders friendly to the US. The newspapers would be encouraged to write articles favoring the US and the CIA and articles saying the accusing country supports terrorism. Newspapers reluctant to fall in line would be enticed with money. Enough money and they eventually fall in line. 3. Countries within our region would be encouraged to isolate the accusing country. Don't trade with the accusing country and have as little diplomatic activity with them as possible. Eventually economic sanctions would be placed on the accusing country if need be. The little accusing country could fight back but it would be no match for the CIA fueled by millions of US tax payer dollars and energized by overwhelming numbers against them. In the end it wouldn't do any good for a small country to fight back because they would waste what little resources they have on a losing battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craig Carvalho Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 1 hour ago, Mathias Baumann said: Craig, so the Soviets all positively identified Oswald as the man who'd visited them. The Cubans did NOT. They say a short blond man came to see them. An impostor calls the Soviet embassy supposedly from the Cuban Consulate.The CIA lies about what they know about Oswald being at the Cuban Consulate. So obviously some sort of intelligence operation was going here. Its target was the Cuban Embassy and it involved an impostor. So is it not possible that the "real" Oswald was at the Soviet embassy but NOT at the Cuban embassy? It may not seem to make much sense, but that's what the evidence appears to suggest. However I think we will never wholly understand the "Mexican mystery" surrounding Oswald if we do not take into account all the other strange events that took place at about the time of Oswald's alleged visit, such as - the disappearance of Alexander Rorke in late September 1963 while running guns from Mexico to Cuba. Rorke and Frank Sturgis had been involved in secret plots against Cuba's government. --> https://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2016/03/marita-lorenz-fidel-castro-conspiracy-theories - the presence of Albert Osborne on the bus Oswald allegedly took and his attempts to obfuscate this fact. Osborne may have had advance knowledge of the assassination --> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5022789/UK-reporter-got-tip-25-minutes-JFK-assassination.html - the big heroin deal foiled by Mexican Police in October 1963. Lucien Rivard, the man behind it, had managed to escape Castro's prison with the help of no other than Jack Ruby. --> http://dimanchematin.com/la-verite-toutes-les-verites-sur-lucien-rivard/ Mathias, Your hypothesis is possible. It would definitely take time to work through it in one's mind. You are correct on two very important points... it is a mystery that we may never fully understand. Thank you for the links. I will most certainly be reading them. Weapons and narcotics were two commodities Castro was very interested in, (guns coming in, and drugs going out). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) Thanks for the interesting info on George Craig.... ya pull one thread... {pun intended} THIS is one of the 2 reasons I spent time writing those papers: Lopez and the HSCA stayed away from the entire Journey despite it being a falsehood from the word go (Marina - who left 2 days earlier - is the source for the WCR that Oswald took a bus... as if she would know) The other thing that caught my eye was "Lee, Harvey Oswald" on the visa signed by Oswald, Lee Harvey - I can see a simple mistake happening... but when the exact same mistake occurs on the Hotel Registry followed by writing that simply does not match the SOP of the manger rewriting all the names of guests who remained in the hotel... why is Lee Oswald the only one different? So I thought... EVERYONE writes about what happened from 10:37am 9/27 thru Oct 1st... but no one has actually looked at the travel - which if the truth would line up easily... a ticket to travel on a bus or plane or train, immigration records, hotel records, etc.... When you then find out the man getting the very next VISA was CIA and lied about what happened that day... I continued to pull on the threads. Paul posts about the CIA and the car... but he forgets about this CIA document: something heavily redacted for sources and means yet pretty interesting none-the-less. The info on the car comes from a source outside the CIA... Between the first and last sentence of the Mexico article writing, my understanding changed and evolved based on data and evidence... not my opinions What I first understood as an impostor started to fall away when i looked a bit deeper... There was no reason for Oswald's trip to be covert. He could travel freely at this point in time, had gotten a new passport in June (even though the girls testify to seeing only the 1959 passport) naming RUSSIA as a destination country... There was no need for him or his wife to travel thru Cuba to get to Russia, and according to virtually every document we know... Oswald did NOT want to stay in or return to Russia. Yet this innocent man's travel is anything but innocent... or simple. If a poster here wants to claim it was Oswald and he was driven or drove himself - ok... but the preponderance of evidence strongly indicates it was not him, that something specific to the intelligence community was going on, and the name LEE HENRY OSWALD was used. The FBI created a fictitious journey to account for his whereabouts. If Oswald was actually in Mexico City... extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.... Edited June 18, 2018 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 8 hours ago, Paul Trejo said: David Lifton is right on this point. Sylvia's first testimony in 1963 was her best testimony. Paul, I see Sylvia Duran's testimony as being consistent from start to finish. Here is my reconstruction of what happened, based on her historical testimony: Duran heard the news that an American who had lived in Russia and taken a Russian wife had killed Kennedy. (She heard other stuff as well, not specified in her testimony. Perhaps, for example, that he was an FPCC leader.) She deduced from Oswald's story that he was the guy she'd seen at the consulate. The following day she saw Oswald's picture in the newspapers, and sometime later the video of Ruby killing him. It didn't occur to Duran that the Dallas Oswald might be a different Oswald than the one she helped. The pictures looked close enough. The Oswald she saw had blond hair (according to both her and Azcue) but not a bright blond. (Azcue called it a dark blond.) The hair of blond people can look darker in photos, and vice versa. (See photos below.) The HCSA specifically asked how she came to connect Dallas Oswald to Consulate Oswald. She said it wasn't because of his picture or his name, but rather because of his story. The reason she didn't say this to the WC is because they didn't ask. The reason Duran change her mind about Dallas Oswald being Consulate Oswald -- to Anthony Summers -- is because she could see in a long interview film of Dallas Oswald that he carried himself significantly differently than Consulate Oswald. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted November 17, 2017 Share Posted November 17, 2017 (edited) It's too bad someone didn't actually SEE Oswald at the Cuban Consulate taking money from a red-headed negro man.... or one of the multiple phone/internal taps as well as camera coverage would have caught him at one or the other location... or someone who knew Oswald's voice had listened to the tape and found it to be Oswald... or Azcue tells us it was Oswald... or if anything he supposedly bought in Mexico ACTUAL came from Mexico... or if they found where Duran tells him to go for the photos... or who the man at the Consulate 1-2 days prior to the Oswald application dated the 27th... or if anyone, anywhere had any information confirming his being there... even in memos that never saw the light of day... Edited January 23, 2018 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Baumann Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Craig Carvalho said: Mathias, Your hypothesis is possible. It would definitely take time to work through it in one's mind. You are correct on two very important points... it is a mystery that we may never fully understand. Thank you for the links. I will most certainly be reading them. Weapons and narcotics were two commodities Castro was very interested in, (guns coming in, and drugs going out). Hello Craig, another strange coincidence just came to my mind: Quote "Like Oswald, Lopez was also of interest to Naval Intelligence. Also similar to Oswald, Gilberto Lopez made a mysterious trip to Mexico City in the fall of 1963, attempting to get to Cuba. Lopez even used the same border crossing as Oswald, and government reports say both went by car, though neither man owned a car. Like Oswald, Lopez had recently separated from his wife and had gotten into a fist-fight in the summer of 1963 over supposedly pro-Castro sympathies. Declassified Warren Commission and CIA documents confirm that Lopez, whose movements parallel Oswald in so many ways in 1963, was on a secret "mission" for the US involving Cuba, an "operation" so secret that the CIA felt that protecting it was considered more important than thoroughly investigating the JFK assassination. Our high Florida law-enforcement source confirmed that Lopez was an asset for another agency, though he did not say whether Lopez was a "witting" or "unwitting" asset)." --> Ultimate Sacrifice, page 305 "Oswald was linked to Lopez via Informant reports of a visit by Oswald to Tampa and someone with its small Fair Play for Cuba Committe chapter, the same Group Lopez visited on November 17,1963, the day before JFK's Tampa trip." --> page 307 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mathias Baumann Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 38 minutes ago, David Josephs said: It's too bad someone didn't actually SEE Oswald at the Cuban Consulate taking money from a red-headed negro man.... or one of the multiple phone/internal taps as well as camera coverage would have caught him at one or the other location... or someone who knew Oswald's voice had listened to the tape and found it to be Oswald... or Azcue tells us it was Oswald... or if anything he supposedly bought in Mexico ACTUAL came from Mexico... or if they found where Duran tells him to go for the photos... or who the man at the Consulate 1-2 days prior to the Oswald application dated the 27th... or if anyone, anywhere had any information confirming his being there... even in memos that never saw the light of day... David, some people DID see Oswald, for instance the Russians at the embassy. And another witness said he saw Oswald at the hotel in the company of several Cubans, one of whom "had come from Florida" (source: "The Last Investigation"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now